Caledonia militia?

[Borg]

Again, exactly, they need the infrastructure and they have debts owing to them, land and compensation. It's collection time.

It's long past time for the government to produce its accounting for Six Nations land and money.

Hell they have all sorts of infrastructure - they can produce more than a million cigarrettes a day - there is a ton of money on reserves - if they want some all they have to do is take it from the crooks that hide there under the guise of "culture"

Join the mainstream? Welcome - but never happen - the gravytrain for the rich ones would disappear. Bad ass chiefs, crooked reserve cops, even more crooked elected reservation indian administrations and indian politicians - they all like it the way it is. Get fat off their friends and family and let the white guy take all the blame.

Look at the inequities on each reserve - there are the "haves" and the "have nots"

The so called brotherhood of indians is a sham and they need to fix their own problems - they get billions every year and cry because they cannot get free hand cleaner

This tells me they like f**king their own and getting whitey to take the hit.

People are starting to wise up to this.

No sympathy or money from me until they clean up their own mess. They are not serious - so keep the status quo - not worth worrying about until they decide to clean it up.

It is a two way street and they want it to be a one way - not going to happen.

Borg

Edited June 26, 2009 by Borg

[Borg]

A group of Caledonia residents attempting to form a militia should be prepared to go to court, Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino says.

"The days of vigilantism are long gone in this country," Commissioner Fantino said yesterday. "That group had better seek good and adequate legal counsel because, if they exercise what they think is their right and their authority, they better be prepared to defend themselves, as we always have, and justify what they do."

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/st...html?id=1731269

Fantino is a weak dick - otherwise this would have been solved long ago - it goes like this - when people believe they have no other alternative they will do what they believe they must do.

So the militia should get the same treatment the indians do - which means they can do anything they want - oops - that does not apply to white taxpayers

Borg

[charter.rights]

Fantino is a weak dick - otherwise this would have been solved long ago - it goes like this - when people believe they have no other alternative they will do what they believe they must do.

So the militia should get the same treatment the indians do - which means they can do anything they want - oops - that does not apply to white taxpayers

Borg

Except.....the militia is the invention of a media whore and his pet monkey. The people of Caledonia and Brantford are not desperate, nor do are they concerned that the OPP aren't doing their jobs.

In the words of a bald-headed organ-grinding monkey:

"The militia's ultimate goal is to provoke a confrontation, thereby forcing the police to step in." Doug Fleming

In other words this has nothing to do with either keeping the peace in Caledonia, or protecting people's rights. It is all about "confrontation" - to escalate the potential for violence - as a means of attempting to force the OPP to take action they legally cannot and to keep McHale in the news.

[tango]

Hell they have all sorts of infrastructure - they can produce more than a million cigarrettes a day - there is a ton of money on reserves - if they want some all they have to do is take it from the crooks that hide there under the guise of "culture"

Join the mainstream? Welcome - but never happen - the gravytrain for the rich ones would disappear. Bad ass chiefs, crooked reserve cops, even more crooked elected reservation indian administrations and indian politicians - they all like it the way it is. Get fat off their friends and family and let the white guy take all the blame.

Look at the inequities on each reserve - there are the "haves" and the "have nots"

The so called brotherhood of indians is a sham and they need to fix their own problems - they get billions every year and cry because they cannot get free hand cleaner

This tells me they like f**king their own and getting whitey to take the hit.

People are starting to wise up to this.

No sympathy or money from me until they clean up their own mess. They are not serious - so keep the status quo - not worth worrying about until they decide to clean it up.

It is a two way street and they want it to be a one way - not going to happen.

Borg

You are making a lot of generalized and stereotyped comments that are irrelevant to the current situation at Six Nations/Caledonia.

Please inform yourself about the thread topic, and discuss that.

[tango]

I stated their tactics targeted innocents. Is it then your position that targeting innocents is justified?

Does it boil down to "The white folks ripped us off so we will hurt any white folks that are handy!"?

As for it being collection time, I said that they can get all the money they claim. What happens when it runs out? Will SN just demand more?

If they don't set up the economic infrastructure to sustain and produce wealth they will repeatedly end up poor. Feast or famine, from bailout to bailout.

They need education. They need business and industry. They need white folks to be a market to supply new wealth from trade.

They have to essentially become more like mainstream Canada. Their isolation is obviously not self-sustaining. It is a parasitical relationship. Canada provides high tech medicine. SN provides 'spiritual ceremonies'.

Do you really think that their road to self-sustaining prosperity is to demand more from Ottawa every year?

Sooner or later, if SN wants to be sovereign they must make it possible to have a heart bypass operation without leaving the reserve.

To consider oneself to be sovereign and independent when you are totally dependent on someone else for your money, your defense and your health is just fooling yourself.

They do not want to be chained to Canada. That's why they want their land back - to continue with their original plan at the time of the Haldimand Proclamation - to be independent economically and politically.

You are generalizing like Borg without reading the links and without understanding the issues and the thread topic.

There's little point in that.

[Borg]

They do not want to be chained to Canada. That's why they want their land back - to continue with their original plan at the time of the Haldimand Proclamation - to be independent economically and politically.

You are generalizing like Borg without reading the links and without understanding the issues and the thread topic.

There's little point in that.

We all understand the thread - but your limitation and your one track approach show you to be the one who has no clue to the problems at hand

Bad assed chiefs who run the show like their own kingdom, crooked elected officials on reservations, inequitable distribution of wealth on reserves, haves and have nots on reserves - all lead to discontent. Easily herded into the program of complaint and violence.

Canada spends billions and it goes down the black hole - the money spent to date would have made EVERY indian in canada a multi millionaire many times over and given them the freedom to do ANYTHING they choose

The indian is being fed a bill of goods and their leaders blow smoke up the indian asses - and use this to breed discontent.

Confrontation? Hell we have been taking it up our own asses for generations - all because of the indian - who claims to want to become an independant self governing country - how many can we support? It is going to get worse and the folks in Caledonia might just do some damage of their own

White man out? Never going to happen sweetie - we are here to stay as well

Seems whitey has been bending over for years and every time we get close to an agreement the other side ups the ante or changes the rules of the game

There will never be peace because there is no negotiation until the leadership of indian elites who breed malcontents and discontent are removed from the indian chain of command and the indian who actually wants peace and prosperity takes over on the indian side

Until then we will continue to be screwed by the indian

Not too many groups of white folks bring guns to the demonstration - see the criminal - oops - warrior / low life do it all the time - every time in fact - coast to coast - and they are treated with kid gloves by the legal system of that part of the country

They are losing their public support due to their actions - yeah, you might not believe it but I was once a stong supporter of native rights - until we had our own land issue some time ago in the west - a tiny piece of land - we had them as partners and we fronted the money - all the money - the indian renegged after the buildings were up - cost my family a lot of money - now we do no business with them - they cannot be trusted - ever.

Try to get your money back when they are on federal land and you are barred access - never happen - so we walked away. We dealt upfront and honest - and supplied hard earned money - their take was to be 70% of the net. They took it all and ran it into the ground - it now sits empty - because of crooked indian leadership.

And to this day they blame the white man - they stole a complete business - lock stock and barrel - turn key operation - no money of their own and they stole from it until it went broke.

Might not like my words but essentially that is how it is pretty much country wide.

You will find a solution when you can prove to people like me - and there are a great many of us - that we can believe the indian will deal fairly and equitably - I do not see that happening in my life time - so they can continue on their road - keeping their own people PURPOSELY in poverty (prove me wrong) - while mine sees the wealth grow.

To placate you - back to the topic

Militia?

Bring it on - perhaps some confrontation would be a good thing. Might force all sides to actually do something honourable.

Certainly it will not hurt - maybe Fantino and his limp wristed thugs will act appropriately for a change.

Borg

Edited June 26, 2009 by Borg

[Borg]

Sooner or later, if SN wants to be sovereign they must make it possible to have a heart bypass operation without leaving the reserve.

To consider oneself to be sovereign and independent when you are totally dependent on someone else for your money, your defense and your health is just fooling yourself.

Well said and very true

Time for them to join the real world of today

Borg

[Jerry J. Fortin]

They do not want to be chained to Canada. That's why they want their land back - to continue with their original plan at the time of the Haldimand Proclamation - to be independent economically and politically.

You are generalizing like Borg without reading the links and without understanding the issues and the thread topic.

There's little point in that.

Lets get something straight, the Six Nations came to Canada after being tossed from the US. They were granted land, which they sold. They can leave anythime they want to, the sooner the better.

[Wild Bill]

They do not want to be chained to Canada. That's why they want their land back - to continue with their original plan at the time of the Haldimand Proclamation - to be independent economically and politically.

You are generalizing like Borg without reading the links and without understanding the issues and the thread topic.

There's little point in that.

And you're off on a tangent again! You asked for specifics, I gave you specifics. Then you ignore them and start harping again about land claims.

Virtually every link and word you've offered has to do with the validity of land claims. My post was about the future for the natives.

Let's say, just for argument, that the natives are 100% correct in every single aspect about their claims. This should be easy for you, since that is essentially been your position all along.

Now what? I have seen diddleysquat to indicate that SN would be able to use that new wealth to create anything self-sustaining. If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that.

How about some links as to what SN would do with that money?

When will we see a university on the reserve, with a physics department that will invent a "Mr. Fusion" device that will green the entire planet?

[charter.rights]

Lets get something straight, the Six Nations came to Canada after being tossed from the US. They were granted land, which they sold. They can leave anythime they want to, the sooner the better.

Incorrect!

Six Nations has been "here" long before the French or the British ever stepped foot in North America. In 1701 the British recognized Six Nations territory extended from New York to Ohio to Michigan and nort to the Ottawa River, Nippissing and The north and west shores of Lake Huron. In 1757, the British identified Six Nations territory described above in the Mitchell Map and then in 1763 the British entrenched Six Nations right to their territory in the Royal Proclamation 1763.

"This land" has never been ceded, surrendered, given or sold.

The Haldimand Proclamation was never, sold, surrendered or given to the British. It was squatted on by colonial settlers before the ink had even dried on the Haldimand Proclamation and Six Nations has been issuing objections and their assertions of the Haldimand as being "exclusive" Six Nations territory ever since.

The Crown recognizes Six Nations territory and the Supreme Court of Canada maintains that the honour of rthe Crown demands that the Canadian government respect all treaties, lands rights and aboriginal rights, and reconcile our needs with theirs BEFORE any development or other action that might affect their interests is initiated.

We are the immigrants "here". Six Nations are for all intents and purposes not only the legal owners of southern Ontario, but are the original inhabitants of this land....at least going back as far as 1000AD.

Do a bit of research instead of relying upon your own personal bias.

[Borg]

Incorrect!

Six Nations has been "here" long before the French or the British ever stepped foot in North America. In 1701 the British recognized Six Nations territory extended from New York to Ohio to Michigan and nort to the Ottawa River, Nippissing and The north and west shores of Lake Huron. In 1757, the British identified Six Nations territory described above in the Mitchell Map and then in 1763 the British entrenched Six Nations right to their territory in the Royal Proclamation 1763.

"This land" has never been ceded, surrendered, given or sold.

The Haldimand Proclamation was never, sold, surrendered or given to the British. It was squatted on by colonial settlers before the ink had even dried on the Haldimand Proclamation and Six Nations has been issuing objections and their assertions of the Haldimand as being "exclusive" Six Nations territory ever since.

The Crown recognizes Six Nations territory and the Supreme Court of Canada maintains that the honour of rthe Crown demands that the Canadian government respect all treaties, lands rights and aboriginal rights, and reconcile our needs with theirs BEFORE any development or other action that might affect their interests is initiated.

We are the immigrants "here". Six Nations are for all intents and purposes not only the legal owners of southern Ontario, but are the original inhabitants of this land....at least going back as far as 1000AD.

Do a bit of research instead of relying upon your own personal bias.

Maybe the land was never sold - I do not know or care - but you are surrounded!

Cannot get out without crossing that hated white man land - and it will never go to you - in fact you will be long dead and gone and not even remembered - and your indian land will eventuially come to us as well - you will be forced to actually come to the realization that you MUST deal with us - not the other way around.

I cannot marginalize you enough - you are simply a squeaky noise - an irritant to be scratched - and yes - you will eventually lose - because you believe violence is the answer - the voters are starting to NOT like you - lose those friends and you will lose.

Too funny

Borg

Edited June 27, 2009 by Borg

[tango]

Maybe the land was never sold - I do not know or care - but you are surrounded!

Cannot get out without crossing that hated white man land - and it will never go to you - in fact you will be long dead and gone and not even remembered - and your indian land will eventuially come to us as well - you will be forced to actually come to the realization that you MUST deal with us - not the other way around.

I cannot marginalize you enough - you are simply a squeaky noise - an irritant to be scratched - and yes - you will eventually lose - because you believe violence is the answer - the voters are starting to NOT like you - lose those friends and you will lose.

Too funny

Borg

Yes too funny, Borg. ha.ha (oink)

Selective "rule of law" ? how original.

You only uphold some parts of the law and not others.

Because the rule of law in Canada is consult, and accommodate Aboriginal rights.

Edited June 27, 2009 by tango

[tango]

Caledonia: Grand River Sachem newspaper

Out-of-towners rally against ‘militia’

By Stefanie Wallace, The Sachem

News

Jun 26, 2009

Over 70 people from Hamilton, Kitchener- Waterloo, Guelph, Toronto, Six Nations and the Haldimand-Norfolk area travelled to Cayuga on June 23 for a rally that started and ended just the way everyone hoped it would: as peacefully as possible.

“This is the most organized, prepared rally I’ve ever seen,” one OPP officer joked as the group of protesters handed out bottled water and snacks to one another.

The rally, which was initiated by the Canadian Union for Public Employees (CUPE) Local 3903 First Nations Solidarity Working Group, and organized by Tom Keefer, was to protest the formation and the first meeting of what Gary McHale and Doug Fleming originally called the Caledonia Militia.

“The only way to get media attention in this country is to use a word like militia,” McHale said, explaining that the group he and Fleming formed will now be known as the Caledonia Peacekeepers.

The Caledonia Peacekeepers will protect citizens by using unarmed force to remove trespassers from private property.

Fleming said the group was only meant to help the situation, not make it worse.

Across the street from the Cayuga Lions Club Hall, protesters flooded the street chanting, “Go away, KKK,” and waving signs and banners that read, “With 6 Nations Against Racism” and “Canadians say NO to Anti-Native Vigilantes.”

“The Caledonia Militia, or Peacekeepers, and Gary McHale are strongly supported by openly Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups,” said Niki Thorne, a protester from Hamilton.

“This militia isn’t good for either Caledonia or Six Nations, so we’re calling for the Canadian government to resolve land claims fairly, swiftly and peacefully.”

http://www.sachem.ca/news/article/179628

And Mchale hasn't surfaced since he was outnumbered, outclassed and upstaged by the CUPE/Six Nations protesters.

The Sachem reporter did a good job.

If this was just Caledonia people, it would be a whole different thing.

But McHale and the white supremacists and neo-nazis he attracts?

Nope. We'll keep protesting that involvement ... peacefully and effectively.

understanding-the-colonial-roots-of-anti-native-activism

Edited June 27, 2009 by tango

[tango]

Virtually every link and word you've offered has to do with the validity of land claims. My post was about the future for the natives.

tff, bill

Let's say, just for argument, that the natives are 100% correct in every single aspect about their claims. This should be easy for you, since that is essentially been your position all along.

Now what? I have seen diddleysquat to indicate that SN would be able to use that new wealth to create anything self-sustaining. If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that.

How about some links as to what SN would do with that money?

When will we see a university on the reserve, with a physics department that will invent a "Mr. Fusion" device that will green the entire planet?

What they do with the land and compensation is their business, but it will be good business for all of us to get it sorted out.

There already are university programs on reserves.

"Mr. Fusion" says ... melt down your HUMMER!!

Edited June 27, 2009 by tango

[charter.rights]

Maybe the land was never sold - I do not know or care - but you are surrounded!

Cannot get out without crossing that hated white man land - and it will never go to you - in fact you will be long dead and gone and not even remembered - and your indian land will eventuially come to us as well - you will be forced to actually come to the realization that you MUST deal with us - not the other way around.

I cannot marginalize you enough - you are simply a squeaky noise - an irritant to be scratched - and yes - you will eventually lose - because you believe violence is the answer - the voters are starting to NOT like you - lose those friends and you will lose.

Too funny

Borg

Incorrect again!

Every Six Nations territory has access to the US, either over land or water. Maybe that is why they choose to settle where they did

The Supreme Court of Canada is reinforcing aboriginal rights, and backing the federal government into a legal corner. Six Nations has made a legal case the federal government can't back out of and so they are in negotiations to return not only land but return the trusts....with full compounded interests over 2 centuries. If you were really as smart as you think you are, you would have known that.

Actually, Six Nations could just as easily deal with the US. Could you imagine the uproar if they decided to capitulate to the US? I mean Canada ignores the Jay Treaty - the law that created Canada and the US boundary. Giving Six Nations territories to the US- all of them and then convincing other First Nations of the same deal - would pie-slice Canada into provinces smaller than Lichtenstein. And it is all perfectly legal under international law.

What would our government do about that? Call out the army lol lol lol ?

You really don't have a clue but that fits with your being automaton.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Every Six Nations territory has access to the US, either over land or water. Maybe that is why they choose to settle where they did

Yeah, I wonder why they made choices that that?

Could it be because they see they can make money running guns and drugs?

No wonder a high percentage of prisoners in this country are natives - because a high percentage of the criminals in this country belong to the same group! The percentage would even be higher if natives were treated equally to everyone else in Canada, but they aren't... they are given racist special treatment which has to end.

[charter.rights]

Yeah, I wonder why they made choices that that?

Could it be because they see they can make money running guns and drugs?

No wonder a high percentage of prisoners in this country are natives - because a high percentage of the criminals in this country belong to the same group! The percentage would even be higher if natives were treated equally to everyone else in Canada, but they aren't... they are given racist special treatment which has to end.

Incorrect!

The locations of Six Nations Territories were put where they are because Six Nations could be ready to defend (and did during the War of 1812) the British from an attack from the US at those locations. Plus they are still connected to the Six Nation territories in the US. You might want to study history a little more thoroughly.

The unique relationship of Six Nations to the Crown warrants recognition of the deals we made with them. There is nothing we can do about it, except accept it.

Your racist talk in the rest of your rant is just petty racist talk and not based on anything factual so I will ignore your pedantic outburst for now.

Edited June 27, 2009 by charter.rights

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Incorrect!

The locations of Six Nations Territories were put where they are because Six Nations could be ready to defend (and did during the War of 1812) the British from an attack from the US at those locations. Plus they are still connected to the Six Nation territories in the US. You might want to study history a little more thoroughly.

The unique relationship of Six Nations to the Crown warrants recognition of the deals we made with them. There is nothing we can do about it, except accept it.

Your racist talk in the rest of your rant is just petty racist talk and not based on anything factual so I will ignore your pedantic outburst for now.

There is nothing racist about wanting equality - no matter how many times you state otherwise.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[Wild Bill]

There's been more in the Hamilton Spectator and CHCH-TV, reporting how Palmer and Powless consider themselves good friends, highlighting a rant by Palmer against Fleming and those who are talking about forming a militia, or peacekeeper squad, or whatever name they intend to use.

The more I hear about this the more confused I become. I can understand simple friendship but Palmer seems very blase about the possibility of losing his land! He has a large farm with supposedly clear title. Now he's asking for the government to clearly state if he owns his land or not.

Suppose the answer is no? He would lose it! Would this not affect his friendship with Powless? Few of us could afford to keep smiling through such a financial hit.

Yet he seems totally unworried and spends all his public talk attacking Fleming and those interested in a militia.

Frankly, this seems more and more like theatrics than a serious position. If we take the situation at face value there seems only negatives for Palmer. Surely there must be incentives in there somewhere besides 'simple friendship' for Palmer to be going along with this smoke shop protest.

Meanwhile, apparently the cops have tried to charge Palmer for allowing illegal smokes to be sold on his land! They have not taken a stand on whether or not it is his land. Certainly they have not tried to charge Powless for the smoke shop! Much less run him off what is supposedly private land.

Seems to me that by trying to charge Palmer they are confirming the charges of racially-biased law enforcement! This is exactly what McHale and others have stated, that non-natives are charged for doing things that natives do with impunity!

The inmates are running the asylum, it would seem.

[charter.rights]

There is nothing racist about wanting equality - no many how many times you state otherwise.

You were the that brought up racist talk;

"The percentage would even be higher if natives were treated equally to everyone else in Canada, but they aren't... they are given racist special treatment which has to end."

I was merely opining that I believe it to be childish statement.

Equality cannot exist without equity. And in order for natives to obtain equity in Canada we have to tip the scales in their favour for a while.

Tell me, do you think that natives should be equal with you, or should we be equal with them?

Edited June 28, 2009 by charter.rights

[Bonam]

Equality cannot exist without equity. And in order for natives to obtain equity in Canada we have to tip the scales in their favour for a while.

The only equality that should be afforded to any group by society is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome (what you appear to be calling "equity"). Your statement that we need to "tip the scales in their favour" is disgusting in the extreme. It is also racist, implying that they are somehow inferior and need to be given an advantage to be able to succeed on the same level as non-natives.

If, given equal treatment as any other Canadian, someone fails to achieve whatever style of life they are trying to achieve, it is absolutely no one's fault but their own. I know several very succesful natives, including a university professor, that have had no trouble doing well in our society - rather than getting drunk and feeling sorry for themselves and demanding free stuff from the government, these people have gone and strove to make something worthwhile of their live and succeeded.

The problems arise because of attitudes like yours, that we need to treat natives as somehow different from the rest, that we need to treat them like helpless children. Give them the same treatment and opportunity as the everyone else and stop the discrimination.

Tell me, do you think that natives should be equal with you, or should we be equal with them?

Neither, both are insane perversions of how society should work. Equality cannot and should not be forced on anyone. You give people an equal chance, and let them make of it what they will. If they fail, then they fail, if they succeed, then they succeed. You don't tear down the successful to the level of the unsuccessful.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

You were the that brought up racist talk;

"The percentage would even be higher if natives were treated equally to everyone else in Canada, but they aren't... they are given racist special treatment which has to end."

I was merely opining that I believe it to be childish statement.

Equality cannot exist without equity. And in order for natives to obtain equity in Canada we have to tip the scales in their favour for a while.

Tell me, do you think that natives should be equal with you, or should we be equal with them?

They are given special treatment based on race - that is racism. They are allowed weapons no one else is allowed. They don't require permits and licences everyone else requires. They don't need to pay taxes.

The natives should be treated equally with everyone else in Canada. The fact that they are not is racism.

[charter.rights]

The only equality that should be afforded to any group by society is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome (what you appear to be calling "equity"). Your statement that we need to "tip the scales in their favour" is disgusting in the extreme. It is also racist, implying that they are somehow inferior and need to be given an advantage to be able to succeed on the same level as non-natives.

It is neither racist nor extreme to suggest that we need to tip the scales in their favour. In fact it is a premise behind many of the Supreme Court of Canada rulings - that the "Honour of the Crown" demands that we not only correct past wrongs, but that we provide the means to give native people a hand up out of the terrible third world we have placed them in.

It is also the premise behind the the Prime Minister's apology for residential schools, in addition to the request made for an admission of harm, the compensation packages and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - all of which is part of the lawsuit settlement agreement we came to with native people.

In today's age when freedom and opportunity form a major part of our civil society WE still institutionally and legally keep native people from equality and opportunity. Between the Indian Act (which by the way the Conservatives had announced they were going to gut, without the participation of native people), the inadequate funding of their educational and health programs, to the restriction on their access to capital to start up businesses, or for purchasing their own homes, we still deny them the equalities and opportunities that we enjoy. To suggest that they are to blame for this, is about as childish and uniformed as one can be.

Historically, our commitment and the protections guaranteed under the Charter of Rights are on the basis of nation to nation protocols, not racism. First Nations protections in the Charter are there because the British made agreements, and the King Proclaimed that we could not take their land, or abuse our relationship in the same way the Jay Treaty with the US, protects them from our attempts to steal their land and resources and vice versa. Racists like to use such talk not as a means to demand equality but to proclaim superiority - somethign people like you have been trying to do for centuries.

And yes it IS racist to to whine about native people not being equal without respecting the gratitude we owe them for allowing our ancestors a place to live, harvest resources and profit. Your goal of blaming them confirms your racist position in this discussion.

So I would suggest that if you think that native people MUST be equal to us then you start lobbying the government on their behalf to provide adequate funding for education (at less than 15% of our system), health (less than 50% of our system, clean water (less than 20% of our system), justice (less than 50% of our system) and see how equal you can get the government to cough up the money. After all if we want them to have freedom and opportunity, then we have to remove the barriers that we (including our government) have laid in their path. And while you are at it perhaps you will be the first in line at our next rally to demand that the government settle all land claims as quickly as possible, fairly and honestly? Or is that too much to ask from someone who is only interested in his own profit?

[Bonam]

It is neither racist nor extreme to suggest that we need to tip the scales in their favour.

Extreme no, as it seems to be the standard position in our society, but racist yes.

It is also the premise behind the the Prime Minister's apology for residential schools, in addition to the request made for an admission of harm, the compensation packages and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - all of which is part of the lawsuit settlement agreement we came to with native people.

No, it is not the premise. An apology is just that, an admission of past wrongs. It is not a means to systemically advantage a given group in society. Same with lawsuits, legal actions happen between various entities (people, corporations, governments) in our society all the time, with damages awarded to one side and punishments to another. In all other cases, it ends there, not burdening the rest of society, which had no involvement in the events in question.

In today's age when freedom and opportunity form a major part of our civil society WE still institutionally and legally keep native people from equality and opportunity.

Exactly, get rid of all legislation and institutions that are meant to treat natives any differently than any other people. Then they will enjoy the exact same opportunity and equality as anyone else. Tax them like any other community, and provide services of an equal quality to them as to any other community. Or, if they are to be sovereign over their own land, and do not need to pay taxes, then we don't owe them anything either.

Racists like to use such talk not as a means to demand equality but to proclaim superiority - somethign people like you have been trying to do for centuries.

People like me eh? People like me have suffered under discrimination and racism for centuries themselves, people like me were stuck under the rule of totalitarian regimes in the old world while the European settlers displaced and killed the natives. People like me are not offered any preferential treatment in compensation for wrongs of generations past. And yet here I am, doing pretty well for myself. No government handouts, just education, planning, and hard work.

And yes it IS racist to to whine about native people not being equal without respecting the gratitude we owe them for allowing our ancestors a place to live, harvest resources and profit. Your goal of blaming them confirms your racist position in this discussion.

Your ancestors maybe, not mine. You do realize that not all current non-native Canadians are descended from the settlers that were there to commit any wrongs against the natives, right? In fact, I would estimate it's a small minority. Also, as I recall it wasn't exactly them "allowing us"; the Europeans didn't give the natives much choice.

to provide adequate funding for education (at less than 15% of our system), health (less than 50% of our system, clean water (less than 20% of our system), justice (less than 50% of our system) and see how equal you can get the government to cough up the money.

Why should their systems be equally well funded if they are not equally heavily taxed? Equal taxation, equal service. You get what you pay for.

After all if we want them to have freedom and opportunity, then we have to remove the barriers that we (including our government) have laid in their path.

Yup, couldn't agree more. Treat them the same as any other Canadian citizen and they will have no greater barriers before them than does anyone else.

[Wild Bill]

Extreme no, as it seems to be the standard position in our society, but racist yes.

No, it is not the premise. An apology is just that, an admission of past wrongs. It is not a means to systemically advantage a given group in society. Same with lawsuits, legal actions happen between various entities (people, corporations, governments) in our society all the time, with damages awarded to one side and punishments to another. In all other cases, it ends there, not burdening the rest of society, which had no involvement in the events in question.

Exactly, get rid of all legislation and institutions that are meant to treat natives any differently than any other people. Then they will enjoy the exact same opportunity and equality as anyone else. Tax them like any other community, and provide services of an equal quality to them as to any other community. Or, if they are to be sovereign over their own land, and do not need to pay taxes, then we don't owe them anything either.

People like me eh? People like me have suffered under discrimination and racism for centuries themselves, people like me were stuck under the rule of totalitarian regimes in the old world while the European settlers displaced and killed the natives. People like me are not offered any preferential treatment in compensation for wrongs of generations past. And yet here I am, doing pretty well for myself. No government handouts, just education, planning, and hard work.

Your ancestors maybe, not mine. You do realize that not all current non-native Canadians are descended from the settlers that were there to commit any wrongs against the natives, right? In fact, I would estimate it's a small minority. Also, as I recall it wasn't exactly them "allowing us"; the Europeans didn't give the natives much choice.

Why should their systems be equally well funded if they are not equally heavily taxed? Equal taxation, equal service. You get what you pay for.

Yup, couldn't agree more. Treat them the same as any other Canadian citizen and they will have no greater barriers before them than does anyone else.

It's beginning to appear that the champions of native rights in this thread are not just asking for 'solutions'.

They are demanding SOCIALIST solutions!

In effect, they want big lump payments on land claims, total sovereignity AND Ottawa monies forever! Canada will keep them on 'welfare' forever, while they can operate independently.

This is not only immoral, but illogical. It would be a system that could not be sustained indefinitely. Eventually money runs out if new wealth is not created.

It reminds me of an editorial cartoon I saw years ago from a turn of the century British newspaper. Some well-dressed gentlemen in silk stockings, labeled as 'socialists' are riding a large pig which is labeled 'The Economy'. The gentlemen are bleeding the pig through a tube and drinking the blood from champagne glasses. In the last panel the pig is lying dead, and its riders are hopping off and running towards a new pig!

A bit extreme perhaps but I always thought that it illustrated how socialism operates quite perfectly.