RAITT-GATE

[Argus]

Well I stand corrected, let me rephrase.

The government had two crisis's with the same reactor in 18 months......

Uh yeah. This brand new reactor that they put up just last... oh wait... this is a really, really old reactor which has been slowly deteriorating for some time now. Maybe, just maybe, we should have, I don't now, rebuilt it or replaced it years ago? You know, like when those people on the opposition side of the house who are screaming invective were in power?

[Shakeyhands]

Raitt has a masters degree in chemistry and a law degree. How about you?

All of a sudden an education is important?

[scribblet]

Too bad the problems weren't looked after during the Liberal years - all of this conservative/Harper derangement syndrome is sad, this forum is no longer a place to come to for reasonable discourse from all sides, as it used to be.

Not to mention that this all came at a very opportune time to take the heat off the Dhalla problems.

This is a good piece, worth a read

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnis...759566-sun.html

Take the controversy over Natural Resources Minister Lisa Raitt's unguarded comments about Canada's medical isotope shortage being politically "sexy" for her if she could fix it, which ended in her tearful apology yesterday.

Politically, it was understandable why neither Raitt, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, nor his advisers initially wanted to apologize for her gaffe.

First, Raitt's remarks weren't intended for public consumption. They were the kind of informal, free-wheeling and often self-aggrandizing banter with an aide (albeit a spectacularly absent-minded one) that politicians engage in all the time. In that context, who hasn't said something privately we would have been mortified to see splashed across every newspaper in the country four months later?

Hypocrisy

Second, for Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff, NDP Leader Jack Layton and the Bloc's Gilles Duceppe to get all self-righteous about Raitt's gaffe was utter hypocrisy, since you can bet they've all said things just as insensitive and politically calculating in private conversations.

Third, it was particularly galling for the Conservatives to get jumped by the Liberals on this issue, since it stems from the unreliability of Ottawa's ancient Chalk River nuclear reactor, a file the Grits bungled during their years in power from 1993 to early 2006.

Fourth, the only people more hypocritical than the opposition were media pundits who claimed to be shocked -- shocked! -- to hear a politician privately thinking out loud about how she could benefit from a crisis, while dissing some cabinet colleagues. In fact, what Raitt said was mild compared to what people like, uh, me, say privately about politicians every day.

cont....

[jdobbin]

Uhm yeah. Except NO ONE cares about this little piece of tabloid crap other than the media and the ideologues who are always eager for another reason to hate the Tories.

The one thing the public will care about is if they have appointments cancelled for scans. At the moment, only the scans that are low priority are being re-scheduled but as many nuclear medicine specialists have commented, the longer the shutdown, the greater the problem.

Raitt will be on the hot seat if the plant can't get operational since she will be tasked with getting supplies elsewhere.

[jdobbin]

All of a sudden an education is important?

That probably means she is elitist...and maybe cosmopolitan. She's probably just visiting elected office.

[jdobbin]

Too bad the problems weren't looked after during the Liberal years - all of this conservative/Harper derangement syndrome is sad, this forum is no longer a place to come to for reasonable discourse from all sides, as it used to be.

Oh stop, even your own link says that Raitt's reaction was out of touch.

Blame the Liberals if you want for this mess. I guess it might work. But don't think that Raitt's problems simply arose because of lack of reasonable discourse.

[Argus]

Well Sherlock, yo have certainly hit the nail on the head. Considering the transparent nature of this Conservative Government lead by Mr. Harper, I find it a little strange that we are only now finding out about the extent of the problem and only through scandal does the truth come to light.......

Right, genius, because this problem developed during Lisa Raitt's watch and is all her fault.

The fact is the reactor is from the 50s and was supposed to be replaced at least a decade ago by new reactors, which were designed and built - they're both in place there, the Maple reactors 1 and 2. They've been finished for years. Only problem was they don't work. Apparently there were some corners cut in the construction, and AECL did a lousy job of overseeing the work. The result is a pair of reactors so dangerous we can't run them, and the Conservatives finally bit the bullet and said to forget them, that there's no solution to their problems.

The whole sad story is here, in a Citizen report from last year.

Chalk River - the 1957 Chevy

[Argus]

The one thing the public will care about is if they have appointments cancelled for scans

And had you guys taken care of this problem when it arose many years ago it would not be a problem today.

[benny]

To simply walk away and leave that huge demand go unsatisfied, possibly causing harm to citizens worldwide is not the responsible act of a government.

Your "worldwide" is a bit exaggerated here since only the richest populations have access to this type of treatment.

[jdobbin]

Uh yeah. This brand new reactor that they put up just last... oh wait... this is a really, really old reactor which has been slowly deteriorating for some time now. Maybe, just maybe, we should have, I don't now, rebuilt it or replaced it years ago? You know, like when those people on the opposition side of the house who are screaming invective were in power?

I think that is what the Liberal government was doing during their time in office. If anything AECL dropped the ball but the Tories have know about the problem since 2006. You figure they might have tried to secure an alternate supply since the warnings were becoming fairly regular.

Conservatives have been trying to point to the Liberals as the blame for the crisis. The problem is that the Tories have the file now and isotope shortages are happening on their watch. People are only interested in Harper and Raitt doing something.

[Argus]

All of a sudden an education is important?

Have I ever suggested an education isn't important?

If you're saying someone is dumb then you need to have a fairly substantial reason, especially given a masters in chemistry, not to mention an add-on law degree.

[Argus]

We both know the real answer to that question. Regular maintenance was preformed at proscribed intervals. The system failed, it happens. Nobody is dumb enough to mess with reactors in this or any other nation. Bad luck to be in power when it happens, thats all. The story is a common one.

Wow. Watch the back-pedalling at the horrified though someone might hold the Liberals even slightly to blame for not fixing the problem, or even seeing to it there was a backup in place.

[Argus]

This entire episode is beginning to anger me. Until the reactor broke we had a 50% market share worldwide. Now this clown thinks we should just shut it down. There is a lot that will be said about this if he actually does it.

Mr. Harper you are fired.

Yeah, damn it! He should have just built a new reactor - in like, a year or two. I'm sure Iggy could build one overnight! Nooo problem!

Boy, the voices of ignorance grow louder and louder around here.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Right, genius, because this problem developed during Lisa Raitt's watch and is all her fault.

The fact is the reactor is from the 50s and was supposed to be replaced at least a decade ago by new reactors, which were designed and built - they're both in place there, the Maple reactors 1 and 2. They've been finished for years. Only problem was they don't work. Apparently there were some corners cut in the construction, and AECL did a lousy job of overseeing the work. The result is a pair of reactors so dangerous we can't run them, and the Conservatives finally bit the bullet and said to forget them, that there's no solution to their problems.

The whole sad story is here, in a Citizen report from last year.

Chalk River - the 1957 Chevy

Argus are you logically challenged? The problem did in fact occur during her watch. The comments she is under fire for happened months ago, before the current problem. She said that it was only a money problem, not a moral one. So spin the clock forward and rethink this thing. We now know she knew of the problem months ago, yet the government said and did nothing.

I never said that the problem was all her fault you goof, I said that it happened on her watch and she is responsible for it. Maple 1 and 2 may be garbage as well, but that isn't the point and has nothing to do with this problem. You know the problem she knew about months ago, made foolish comments about it, and has now been caught up in a scandal for it.

Where is the transparency and disclosure that Steve the Super Prime Minister claimed his government was all about. We heard nothing about the problem for months and now its this persons fault or that persons fault but it can hardly be the governments fault now can it. Lets blame everything on the last guy and accept no responsibility for anything at all. All because the problem really happened a long time ago.

Your position on this matter is ridiculous.

[jdobbin]

If you're saying someone is dumb then you need to have a fairly substantial reason, especially given a masters in chemistry, not to mention an add-on law degree.

She was dumb because she didn't correct the impression that her comments seemed to have with the general public. She was dumb to think that talking behind people's backs doesn't get out somehow.

I certainly don't think she should be fired. I am concerned that there seems to be some chaos in her office. The issue of so many jobs not being filled immediately after the last election begs the question of whether it is the fear of another election or something deeper such as lobbying laws, interference from the PMO or a preference not to hire senior people into minister's offices.

Raitt's biggest problems now are that she may have poisoned the wells within her own caucus. Harper will defend her to the end. And that is something Harper may decide comes in a shuffle.

[jdobbin]

And had you guys taken care of this problem when it arose many years ago it would not be a problem today.

As I said, blame the Liberals for this if you want. It is the Conservative file now and people will only care how the problem is fixed rather than finger pointing.

[Argus]

I think that is what the Liberal government was doing during their time in office. If anything AECL dropped the ball but the Tories have know about the problem since 2006. You figure they might have tried to secure an alternate supply since the warnings were becoming fairly regular.

The tories were told the problems with M1 and M2 were fixable. Problem was the people telling them this were being more than a little optimistic. There are so many problems and issues with these reactors that as soon as they find a solution to one another pops up. I don't believe Harper or Raitt are nuclear physicists, and certainly took the advice of the professionals. Apparently they've finally given up on believing.

But that doesn't change the fact these reactors were built under your watch, and that, just like the Tories, you sat back for years and did nothing because AECL kept insisting it could fix the problem. So the indignation of your party once again demonstrates the craven dishonesty and hypocrisy which seems to be characterstic of Liberals.

[Dave_ON]

And had you guys taken care of this problem when it arose many years ago it would not be a problem today.

Wow Argus no need to blow a gasket. Your sanctimonious aspersions aside the question remains; what have the conservatives done about this problem since taking office? Why have we not heard about any sexy solutions to this sexy problem? Are the Liberals responsible for not resolving the issue while they were in power? Absolutely! Are the Conservatives responsible for continuing the Liberal legacy even though they claim they're so very different then the evil, lying money wasting Liberals? Absolutely! We, and consequently most of the electorate, don't care what the Liberals did or didn't do. We care about what the Conservatives ARE doing. Heretofore there has been absolutely no communication on what is being done to resolve the issue.

When will you and the CPC realize that three years hence blaming the Liberals for the Conservatives inability to act is getting rather stale? Is it the Liberal stacked courts perhaps? The Liberal stacked senate? Is it the Liberal special interest groups staying their hand? Perhaps it’s the uncooperative opposition parties who are to blame? Certainly it couldn’t be God’s own party the Conservative Party of Canada.

Responsibility for the CPC’s own inaction needs to be taken. We can't expect this will happen anytime soon if at all. What we can expect is the often cited Conservative mantra, "But the Liberals are responsible for Ad Scam"

[Argus]

Argus are you logically challenged? The problem did in fact occur during her watch.

Depends on how you choose to define the problem. To you, with your clearly simplistic mindset, the problem is the Chalk River reactor has to be shut down for maintenance. End story, full stop. THAT, as far as you're concerned, is the whole story and all that anyone needs to know.

But then us grownups look at it and say well, the problem is we've got an ancient reactor supplying a very important need which has no backup and will inevitably have to be closed for longer and longer periods of time, if not permanently. That is the problem which anyone could have and in fact, did foresee two decades ago, wihch is why the two new reactors were built. Which leads us to the second problem. These reactors were built using shoddy construction and with poor oversight and controls, and they don't seem to work. That has been known for at least a decade. So we have two problems, really, both of them at least a decade old, and neither immediatley soluable. You seem to be under the imrpression Harper can either fix these reactors himself somehow, or order up a new one off the shelf. It takes a minimum, absolute rock bottom minimum of ten years from deciding to build one to when it comes on line, and that's being conservative.

The comments she is under fire for happened months ago, before the current problem. She said that it was only a money problem, not a moral one.

Meaning, I suppose, give AECL more money and they'll fix it. Only thing is, AECL hasn't been able to show much progress. None, in fact.

So spin the clock forward and rethink this thing. We now know she knew of the problem months ago, yet the government said and did nothing.

What, in an ideal world, would you want them to do?

I never said that the problem was all her fault you goof,

Right. You meant to blame other people. You just only mention her, and demand she resign. Silly of me to make that mistake.

[Argus]

Wow Argus no need to blow a gasket. Your sanctimonious aspersions aside the question remains; what have the conservatives done about this problem since taking office?

Told AECL to fix it. What would you have them do? Equip their caucus with nuclear physics degrees from Bob Jones Internet University and come up with a solution to the myriad problems of Maple 1 and 2? Buy a new reactor at Reactors R Us?

They told AECL to get the job done. AECL assured them they could. I'm just not sure any of you even have any ideas as to what else they could have done, or what YOU would have done had you been in office. Fixing reactors which are filled with problems is not something you do over a long weekend of overtime. It does, in fact, take years.

[Argus]

She was dumb because she didn't correct the impression that her comments seemed to have with the general public.

The impression your party has been working frantically to build? Yes, perhaps she should have done one of those dreary mia culpas right at the beginning. "I'm so sorry for being human instead of a robotic calculating machine which never says anything wrong, never makes off-colour jokes, never has family problems, never confides in aides, never displays an iota of humanity lest the media and opposition jump on it like starving, rabid dogs".

She was dumb to think that talking behind people's backs doesn't get out somehow.

There is not one politician, one media personality, or in fact, probably one person on this forum who has not said unflattering things about colleagues at work, including me. We just don't expect someone to accidentally tape those comments, then lose the tape recorder, then not bother picking it up when the press call, then have the press blurt our words all over the front page.

[benny]

It takes a minimum, absolute rock bottom minimum of ten years from deciding to build one to when it comes on line, and that's being conservative.

Partisan politics cannot solve expensive long-term problems. These problems are especially politically risky for fiscally conservative politicians.

Edited June 11, 2009 by benny

[ToadBrother]

The impression your party has been working frantically to build? Yes, perhaps she should have done one of those dreary mia culpas right at the beginning. "I'm so sorry for being human instead of a robotic calculating machine which never says anything wrong, never makes off-colour jokes, never has family problems, never confides in aides, never displays an iota of humanity lest the media and opposition jump on it like starving, rabid dogs".

Yes, she should have. She blundered in looking obstinate, but she may also have blundered in an over-the-top apology. Screwing up like this is tough to get out of, but here's some advice; apologize quickly, with heartfelt emotion, but not too much emotion.

I don't expect her to be in Cabinet that much longer.

There is not one politician, one media personality, or in fact, probably one person on this forum who has not said unflattering things about colleagues at work, including me. We just don't expect someone to accidentally tape those comments, then lose the tape recorder, then not bother picking it up when the press call, then have the press blurt our words all over the front page.

If I were Raitt, I'd be trying to figure out who that staffer was really working for. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that gal, intentionally or unintentionally, sure has put some bombs in the basement. And you can be assured that the media will be dropping more of Raitt's delightful bon mottes.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Depends on how you choose to define the problem. To you, with your clearly simplistic mindset, the problem is the Chalk River reactor has to be shut down for maintenance. End story, full stop. THAT, as far as you're concerned, is the whole story and all that anyone needs to know.

But then us grownups look at it and say well, the problem is we've got an ancient reactor supplying a very important need which has no backup and will inevitably have to be closed for longer and longer periods of time, if not permanently. That is the problem which anyone could have and in fact, did foresee two decades ago, wihch is why the two new reactors were built. Which leads us to the second problem. These reactors were built using shoddy construction and with poor oversight and controls, and they don't seem to work. That has been known for at least a decade. So we have two problems, really, both of them at least a decade old, and neither immediatley soluable. You seem to be under the imrpression Harper can either fix these reactors himself somehow, or order up a new one off the shelf. It takes a minimum, absolute rock bottom minimum of ten years from deciding to build one to when it comes on line, and that's being conservative.

Meaning, I suppose, give AECL more money and they'll fix it. Only thing is, AECL hasn't been able to show much progress. None, in fact.

What, in an ideal world, would you want them to do?

Right. You meant to blame other people. You just only mention her, and demand she resign. Silly of me to make that mistake.

Argus did you take a dimwit pill this morning?

I have said before and will say again that there is blame enough for everybody, and go ahead feel free to blame whomsoever you wish. You wish to blame the Liberals, okay it IS their fault. So now what? How do you hold them accountable and responsible and get them to fix the problem?

Look Argus, there is a problem and something needs to be done about it. The government knew about it ahead of time, told nobody and did nothing. The thing finally blows up in the governments face and what happens? The government blames the previous government, not even a novel approach. All of these windbags be they Conservative or Liberal do the same thing. Get over it.

Here is the rub, the problem has now become a political one. How will the Conservatives since they are the government of the day going to fix this problem? How does this translate with the problems associated with yet another Minister of the Crown running off at the mouth? Considering the current economic environment can the government really do anything at all about the problem?

Now I am sure in your mind that the government has done no wrong. Hey guess what, they didn't break the reactor! They are innocent of the cause of the problem, yet they are responsible for providing a solution to the problem. You can say what you want, spin forward and backward but at the end of the day this is a problem of no small importance that must be dealt with. The Conservatives have so far managed to make it worse in the way they have handled it so for. I imagine they can make it worse since we have now decided to deal with the thing in a political manner.

You go ahead and blame the Liberals Argus if it makes you feel better. Just realize that the rest of the nation is aware of who is responsible for the actions of the government and they know that it is not the Liberals.

[ToadBrother]

Told AECL to fix it. What would you have them do? Equip their caucus with nuclear physics degrees from Bob Jones Internet University and come up with a solution to the myriad problems of Maple 1 and 2? Buy a new reactor at Reactors R Us?

They told AECL to get the job done. AECL assured them they could. I'm just not sure any of you even have any ideas as to what else they could have done, or what YOU would have done had you been in office. Fixing reactors which are filled with problems is not something you do over a long weekend of overtime. It does, in fact, take years.

And that's the crux of the problem. The Liberals had to have known about Chalk River's problems. I personally am no Tory supporter, but to blame Raitt for what ultimately is an issue of an aging reactor being run far past its prime is ludicrous. The ball was dropped on this one long before Tories ever came to power. It's a failure of the government, in the most general terms, and not just of the last couple of people to hold the Cabinet post.

But I do think it's tragic, and shows an utter lack of vision, that we're apparently getting out of the medical isotope business.