Are the Liberals Heading Back to Church

[Progressive Tory]

So you speak for most Canadians?

No but this does

Most Canadians Pick Evolution Over Creationism

[Progressive Tory]

It looks like Marc Garneau, Liberal science critic, understands Ignatieff's initiative of drawing the faithful under the large Liberal tent.

Good for Mr. Garneau. Ignatieff's initiative appears to be not fighting publicly over trivia. That being said, I still believe that church and state should be severed completely. That way nobody's personal religious beliefs have any bearing whatsoever. They can howl at the moon in their spare time. Just don't ask us to join them.

[Progressive Tory]

edit: what I'm saying is Ignatieff better put a stop to this bashing if the Liberals are to make Evangelicals and Christians welcome in the party. Get it?

You're right. I think it's time for all Parliamentarians to grow up and start focusing on real issues. I know about the dinosaur incident, but what did Ralph Goodlae say that was so bad? Tongue in cheek acknowledgement that the world was flat. It was kind of funny.

However, the issue was science and why their funding is being cut, they are interested in Goodyear's beliefs, and rightfully so.

"Many in the Canadian scientific community expressed shock that Goodyear would invoke religion when asked a question about science. Brian Alters, founder and director of the Evolution Education Research Centre at McGill University told the Globe and Mail that evolution is a scientific fact and is the foundation of modern biology.

"It is the same as asking the gentleman, 'Do you believe the world is flat?' and he doesn't answer on religious grounds," Dr. Alters told the newspaper. "Or gravity, or plate tectonics, or that the Earth goes around the sun." Isaac Newton was excommunicated for his discovery of gravity.

Again Separate church and state and do it now!

[capricorn]

Good for Mr. Garneau. Ignatieff's initiative appears to be not fighting publicly over trivia.

Trivia? The hottest item for the Liberals and the media in the last 48 hours has been debating the impact of Goodyear's religion on his decision-making and you think this is trivial?

They can howl at the moon in their spare time. Just don't ask us to join them.

You can be sure any politician howling at the moon, even outside their working hours, would make front page news. Well, maybe not if they're anything but Conservative.

[capricorn]

what did Ralph Goodlae say that was so bad? Tongue in cheek acknowledgement that the world was flat. It was kind of funny.

I and I'm sure many other Christians did not find it funny at all. References to flat earth is a well recognized slander of Christians. It was conjured up and is a myth.

The modern Flat Earth Myth originated with the 19th-century American writer Washington Irving. In his fictional History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828), Irving wrote that flat-Earth churchmen had opposed Columbus on the grounds that he would fall off the edge of the Earth if he tried to sail across the Atlantic. In actuality, Columbus's opponents knew not only that the Earth is a sphere, but also approximately how big it is. Since they (like Columbus) knew nothing about the Americas, it was quite reasonable for them to believe that a voyage to the Far East would not be a good investment.

The Flat Earth Myth remained clearly in the realm of fiction until Darwin published his Origin of Species in 1859. Then two of Darwin’s followers presented it as actual history in books that defended Darwinism against imaginary attacks from ignorant Christians: John Draper’s The History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874), and Andrew Dickson White’s A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). The pseudo-historical propaganda of Draper and White has been thoroughly discredited by twentieth-century historians.

Apparently, however, Graur doesn't read much history. Instead, he unknowingly caricatures critics of Darwinism on the basis of a myth that the Darwinists themselves fabricated.

http://www.discovery.org/a/2587

THE FLAT EARTH MYTH

... the story is false. It began as fiction, and it was elevated to a historical claim by late-19th century Darwinists who used it as a weapon to ridicule Christians.

The spherical shape of the earth was known to the ancient Greeks, who even made some decent estimates of its circumference. Christian theologians likewise knew that the earth was a sphere. The only two who are known to have advocated a flat earth were a 4th-century heretic, Lactantius, and an obscure 6th-century writer, Cosmas Indicopleustes.

A major promulgator of the flat earth myth was the 19th-century American writer Washington Irving. In his fictional History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828), Irving wrote that flat-earth churchmen had opposed Columbus on the grounds that he would fall off the edge of the earth if he tried to sail across the Atlantic. In actuality, Columbus had been opposed by people who not only knew the earth was a sphere, but also had a pretty good idea of how big it was - but who knew nothing of the Americas and thus thought a voyage to the Far East would take too long and cost too much.

The flat earth remained clearly in the realm of fiction until after Darwin published his Origin of Species in 1859. Two of Darwin's followers then elevated it to a historical claim in books defending Darwinism and attacking Christianity: John Draper's The History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874), and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).

http://post-darwinist.blogspot.com/2007/09...earth-myth.html

So you find it funny when Gooddale refers to a myth which is intended to ridicule Christians. That's very shallow. And if I were you I'd stop all those references to Jesus and the NDP. Clearly, you don't understand the scriptures as well as you think.

[ToadBrother]

Exactly. We spoke of Harper's 'big tent' when he united the Right; but Ignatieff's 'big tent' is geared at uniting Canadians.

All other things aside, I think that statement is going to make me wretch. Iggy is, after all, just a politician, not Moses crossing the desert.

[Progressive Tory]

So you find it funny when Gooddale refers to a myth which is intended to ridicule Christians. That's very shallow. And if I were you I'd stop all those references to Jesus and the NDP. Clearly, you don't understand the scriptures as well as you think.

Ralph Goodale was not parroting those historical figures. It was the science community who brought it up. It was only a religous issue whan Goodyear made it one. When asked if he believed in the scientifically proven theory of evolution, he said he wasn't going to discuss his religous beliefs. This isn't about religion. The question was about science.

Goodale was referring to the scientific community who suggested that if Goodyear had been asked if the world was flat, there's a pretty simple answer. "No". Nothing religous about it.

Do you believe in gravity? "Yes"

All accepted scientific conclusions. Anyone who's ever fallen from a tree believes in gravity, or looked at a globe, knows the world is round. We don't have to look it up in the Bible. We just know.

[jdobbin]

Iggy is, after all, just a politician, not Moses crossing the desert.

Moses just parted the sea. I've heard that Ignatieff can walk across it. heh

[ToadBrother]

I and I'm sure many other Christians did not find it funny at all. References to flat earth is a well recognized slander of Christians. It was conjured up and is a myth.

http://www.discovery.org/a/2587

http://post-darwinist.blogspot.com/2007/09...earth-myth.html

So you find it funny when Gooddale refers to a myth which is intended to ridicule Christians. That's very shallow. And if I were you I'd stop all those references to Jesus and the NDP. Clearly, you don't understand the scriptures as well as you think.

Apart from the fact that this is a blog by someone who appears to support ID, it raises an interesting fact. No one (well, educated people at least) in the Mediterranean world believed, 2000 years ago, that the world was flat. However, a thousand years before that, it was a rather common belief. The Genesis cosmography is clearly heavily based on the Sumero-Akkadian comsography; a flat Earth with a dome (the Firmament) over it in which the heavenly bodies were set.

So, if you were to ask an Israelite in, say, 800BC, they would probably have said "The Earth is flat". If you had asked the guy's descendant, nearly a thousand years later, he would have said, "Don't be absurd, it's round." If he was a particularly educated Jew, he would have said, "That's really silly, not only is it round, but Eratosthenes figured out its circumference to 25,000 miles!"

So, what we see pretty clearly is that Hellenic Jews would not have been bound by the literalistic beliefs of their ancestors. The cosmography simply was reinterpreted.

[capricorn]

Moses just parted the sea. I've heard that Ignatieff can walk across it. heh

But can Ignatieff swim?

[capricorn]

Apart from the fact that this is a blog by someone who appears to support ID, it raises an interesting fact. ....

Thanks Toad. The observations in your post are interesting.

Edited March 19, 2009 by capricorn

[scribblet]

Evangelical christians? How shocking, especially for Harper haters such as Normanchateau, et al. Unbelievable. Ignatieff's choice, McKay, to bring on in to HIS party all of those holy rolling evangelicals, etc., voted AGAINST same sex marriage and is an anti 'pro-choicer' ----

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Say it isn't so, mercy me, evangelical Liberals, now who will they do LOL Imagine, we could have an IDS (Iggy Derangement Syndrome)

[Alexandra]

Say it isn't so, mercy me, evangelical Liberals, now who will they do LOL Imagine, we could have an IDS (Iggy Derangement Syndrome)

We do have the IDS. Right on this thread. It looks like it's contagious too.

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