Spring Election 2009

[Smallc]

Yes, Dalton McGuinty is perhaps an uber-genius considering how well Ontario's economy is doing.

I guess that must mean that Ed Stelmach is almost as smart. Reality is, neither one of those two could see what was coming. They can't control the US market, the US economy, or the price of commodities.

[Canadian Blue]

I guess that must mean that Ed Stelmach is almost as smart. Reality is, neither one of those two could see what was coming. They can't control the US market, the US economy, or the price of commodities.

I wouldn't worry friend, I have no particularly warm feelings towards Stelmach and I didn't vote for him. The fact is he made a disasterous decision before the election by changing the royalty framework, now Saskatchewan has the fastest growing economy in the country and Alberta is losing wealth due to his incompetence.

I'd go so far as to say that Stelmach and McGuinty are currently the two worst Premiers in the country.

I'm not a blind partisan hack like Progressive Tory so you won't have to worry about any hackery coming from this corner. I have a firm disgust with the Harper governments deficit as well.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Canadian Blue

[ToadBrother]

It's almost a given. The Mike Harris gov't hid deficits with the projected sale of assets. Flaherty is doing the same thing.

I would be willing to bet that the 3 billion dollars that was supposed to go into infastructure from the last budget, is gone. They now need an unaccountable 3 billion slush fund to cover up the fact that it's gone. I've seen these guys operate too long, to not see what's behind this latest ploy.

Maybe the Opposition should demand that they prove they still have the other before trusting them with more.

I guess it really depends on how close to the wire the Opposition wants to go. The Tories certainly don't want an election, but there's something of a delicate balancing act for Iggy too. He holds the hangman's noose, but he's standing on the platform as well, and if he flicks the switch he risks his own neck.

Still, there would be something deeply satisfying about watching the Opposition command Harper and Flaherty to produce the goods.

[ToadBrother]

You're right. He's drafting attack ads because Ignatieff is rising in the polls, but now is threatening another election?

I think he really has gone insane or is so bored with his job he wants a way out. Why doesn't he just pull a John Tory and resign.

To be fair, John Tory is a failure on a whole other level.

[fellowtraveller]

Ignatieff is reluctant to allow the government to spend $3 billion of the money he has been howling to be released for infrastructure programs, yet is content for $6 billion to be plowed into auto manufatcurers that is completely unsecured money.......

Hypocrite

[Smallc]

Ignatieff is reluctant to allow the government to spend $3 billion

No he's not, he just wants them to tell parliament what its used for as its used.

[jdobbin]

Ignatieff is reluctant to allow the government to spend $3 billion of the money he has been howling to be released for infrastructure programs, yet is content for $6 billion to be plowed into auto manufatcurers that is completely unsecured money.......

Hypocrite

I think you mean Harper has plowed money into auto manufacturers with no control. Ignatieff has been asking for an accounting of that money as well.

[Progressive Tory]

To be fair, John Tory is a failure on a whole other level.

I haven't voted Conservative provincially since the Mike Harris nightmare, so admit I don't really know much about him. I remember when he was running against Flaherty for leadership of the party, he was considered to be less right-wing. Does that mean much?

It's only recently that I've learned his 'faults'. Can't imagine who will take his place.

[Progressive Tory]

If only we could have the steady hand of Bob Rae in Canada, then our country would have streets paved of gold. Before budget deficit happened Ernie Eves was the Premier and Janet Ecker was the finance minister. Ironically enough they were both red tories, which kind of defeats your notion that all evil in Canada is relegated to blue tories.

When Ernie Ernie Eves took over, there already was a deficit, just well hidden in creative accounting.

I never voted for Bob Rae when he was premier of Ontario, however, he was in power during a recession and Ontario was not the only province with problems. In fact, Mulroney ran up a 42 billion dollar deficit federally.

'Rae Days' was the campaign slogan of the National Citizens Coalition; who lay claim to Mike Harris with their 'Common Sense Revolution'. It was decades ago and really has nothing to do with the current political scene. Many politicians change party affiliation: Lawrence Cannon, Stephen Harper, etc. and fortunately many learn from past mistakes.

If Bob Rae was handling our finances now, you would probably be worried. With Jim Flaherty now handling our finances, I'm scared to death.

[Progressive Tory]

I'm not a blind partisan hack like Progressive Tory so you won't have to worry about any hackery coming from this corner. I have a firm disgust with the Harper governments deficit as well.

How am I a blind partisan hack? I've complained about politicians from all parties and given credit where credit was due. I've mentioned many times, that I admired Preston Manning, Chuck Strahl, Jim Prentice and Pat Martin, to name a few.

I've voted PC most of my life and when they folded, had to shop around. Never liked Paul Martin at all as PM so voted NDP in 2004 and 2006.

Now that Michael Ignatieff is on the scene, I'm supporting him; but only after a lot of research. I don't follow him blindly but for me he's simply the best person to become the next Prime Minister of Canada.

My husband is a lifetime NDP supporter, but he has given up on Jack Layton. He also likes Michael Ignatieff, so this may be the first time we both agree on something, politically speaking. It only took 37 years.

[Progressive Tory]

Ignatieff is reluctant to allow the government to spend $3 billion of the money he has been howling to be released for infrastructure programs, yet is content for $6 billion to be plowed into auto manufatcurers that is completely unsecured money.......

Hypocrite

It was the Conservatives who agreed to bailout the auto industry, and Michael Ignatieff has said that he is not comfortable with such a huge deficit, but knows that Canadians just want to get on with it. He's just not giving this gov't free reign, thank heavens.

Nobody is holding up the 3 billion dollars from the last budget earmarked for infastructure spending except the Tories. Why aren't they releasing that money now when we need it? They can't spend additional money until April anyway.

[Progressive Tory]

No he's not, he just wants them to tell parliament what its used for as its used.

Exactly. It's about accountability.

[Canadian Blue]

How am I a blind partisan hack? I've complained about politicians from all parties and given credit where credit was due. I've mentioned many times, that I admired Preston Manning, Chuck Strahl, Jim Prentice and Pat Martin, to name a few.

I've voted PC most of my life and when they folded, had to shop around. Never liked Paul Martin at all as PM so voted NDP in 2004 and 2006.

Now that Michael Ignatieff is on the scene, I'm supporting him; but only after a lot of research. I don't follow him blindly but for me he's simply the best person to become the next Prime Minister of Canada.

My husband is a lifetime NDP supporter, but he has given up on Jack Layton. He also likes Michael Ignatieff, so this may be the first time we both agree on something, politically speaking. It only took 37 years.

Yes you are a partisan hack Progressive Tory, that's why you seem to have an infatuation with just about every Liberal politician and think that Bob Rae was an excellent Premier. We should be so lucky that Mike Harris was elected, with people such as yourself voting Ontario would have been a have not province by 1999 with your ideology that argues high taxes and statism are better than free enterprise and commerce.

[Progressive Tory]

Yes you are a partisan hack Progressive Tory, that's why you seem to have an infatuation with just about every Liberal politician and think that Bob Rae was an excellent Premier. We should be so lucky that Mike Harris was elected, with people such as yourself voting Ontario would have been a have not province by 1999 with your ideology that argues high taxes and statism are better than free enterprise and commerce.

Hardly ever voted Liberal and never for Bob Rae. Never said he was an excellent Premier, just not as bad as Harper's National Citizens Coalition painted him to be, considering that there was a recession at the time and most provinces were suffering.

I voted for Mike Harris until his party became the dictionary definition of corrupt. Haven't voted PC in Ontario since.

I only support higher consumption taxes, but want lower income taxes for middle and lower class Cdns. I only support 'statism' of vital services, like police, prisons, jails, healthcare, etc.

Canada Post should be privatized.

I never left conservatism, Candian conservatism left me.

[Canadian Blue]

Hardly ever voted Liberal and never for Bob Rae. Never said he was an excellent Premier, just not as bad as Harper's National Citizens Coalition painted him to be, considering that there was a recession at the time and most provinces were suffering.

Actually Stephen Harper wasn't the head of the National Citizens Coalition at the time, he was still in the Reform Party. But it's fairly common knowledge that Rae's policies were disasterous. I still find it funny that you're opposed to governments that actually believe in individual initiative and free enterprise though. You're really showcasing your conservative credentials.

I voted for Mike Harris until his party became the dictionary definition of corrupt. Haven't voted PC in Ontario since.

What corruption in particular, as well which party in Ontario has never been corrupt.

I only support higher consumption taxes, but want lower income taxes for middle and lower class Cdns.

Which would mean that any person who works really hard and becomes successful will get punished more.

I only support 'statism' of vital services, like police, prisons, jails, healthcare, etc.

I'm calling BS on this, you've stated before that Canadian taxpayers should fund special interest organizations like the Canadian Arab Federation.

I never left conservatism, Candian conservatism left me.

No it didn't, you just adopted a bastardized version of it. Conservatism is far more distrustful of government than you might like to think. The fact that you don't even support the decentralization of the federal government is far more indicative of welfare liberalism than it is conservatism.

I haven't seen a single argument come from you that showcases an adherence to tradition, localism, the family, or the church. However I have seen strong support for half baked wealth redistribution schemes, a stronger role for the federal government, and a strong disgust of Christianity in general. You should just come right out and say that you're either a welfare liberal, social democrat, or leftist.

Even George Grant, who is often considered the chief Red Tory in Canada was pro-life and supportive of Christian values. But you've likely never heard of him and then proceeded to think that a conservative was nothing more than a watered down Trudeau Liberal.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Canadian Blue

[fellowtraveller]

No he's not, he just wants them to tell parliament what its used for as its used.

Harper has no problem accounting as it is dispensed, Iggy wants to approve every dime as it is dispensed, which means no action.

I think we need an election.

[fellowtraveller]

I think you mean Harper has plowed money into auto manufacturers with no control. Ignatieff has been asking for an accounting of that money as well.

Harper has not given anything yet, and we have just learned in the last couple of days that all of GMs assets are already attached by the US govt.

Doies Iggy or you want the federal govt to donate billions in completely unsecured assets?

Iggy wants an accounting of ...what? The nothing spent so far?

He is one of the many who howled that not enough was planned to support the auto industry, which way would you have it now?

[jdobbin]

Harper has not given anything yet, and we have just learned in the last couple of days that all of GMs assets are already attached by the US govt.

Doies Iggy or you want the federal govt to donate billions in completely unsecured assets?

Harper wants the budget approved right away. Ignatieff has stood by the regular accounting of the budget that takes place following its tabling. Does Harper want to donate billions? He's the one that doesn't want to account for things/

Iggy wants an accounting of ...what? The nothing spent so far?

Of how it is spent and what is secured against if you have read of the news articles on it this week. Harper says there is no time even though no money can be spent before April 1.

He is one of the many who howled that not enough was planned to support the auto industry, which way would you have it now?

Can't recall him asking for unsecured support. In fact, he asked for guarantees that money would be paid back and not simply used to move jobs out of the country.

So please don't plead Harper's helplessness in all this. He is the government now and is the one writing the budget. There is nothing to indicate that the Liberals want no accounting of the money and how it will be spent or what guarantees there are on payment.

[Smallc]

I think we need an election.

Fine by me.

[Progressive Tory]

Actually Stephen Harper wasn't the head of the National Citizens Coalition at the time, he was still in the Reform Party. I'm calling BS on this, you've stated before that Canadian taxpayers should fund special interest organizations like the Canadian Arab Federation.

Even George Grant, who is often considered the chief Red Tory in Canada was pro-life and supportive of Christian values. But you've likely never heard of him and then proceeded to think that a conservative was nothing more than a watered down Trudeau Liberal.

Stephen Harper wasn't head of the NCC at the time but was definitely a key member. I read his biography.

As to funding the Canadian Arab Federation, you obviously didn't read my post fully. I was pointing out that while Kenney was trying to suggest that the group received almost 1/2 million from the federal gov't, he was wrong. That was part of a larger immigration project and the Arab federation received only about 5% of that, or less than $ $25,000.00 He was posturing and misrepresenting the facts.

What I opposed the most was Jason Kenney trying to suggest that any criticism of Israeli aggression was anti-semitism. It is not anti-semitism because I am not talking about the Jewish faith or suggesting that Israel has no right to exist. I just oppose their occupation in Gaza and murder of women and children. I have just as much contempt for Hamas who will use human shields. Anyone claiming to be Christian and supporting this war, is not a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, because he was not pro-war by any stretch of the imagination. In fact if he was alive today he would be part of the religous left and would probably be voting NDP.

What passes as Christian values these days, like intolerance, war and hatred of Muslims, are not the values of the religion's founder.

And to conservatism and how it's been distorted, there's an interesting article about John McCain, because apparently he was booed by the Christian Right for not being 'conservative' enough.

Referring to McCain and Edmund Burke: "But he believed change should take a measured pace and should try to follow well-worn social grooves rather than cutting across them. Above all, he abhorred utopian reformers, who, by disdaining real-world constraints and overestimating their own intelligence, invariably worsen what they seek to improve.... Burke speaks as much to the conservative temperament as to conservative ideas. He would be suspicious of a conservatism that wanted to “explosively replace the failed bureaucracies of the past.”

"Starting with Barry Goldwater’s campaign of 1964, American conservatism repositioned itself as a revolutionary movement... Burke would have wondered at this. And in 2008 he might have noticed that, if conservatism is as much a temperament as it is any particular set of policies, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, both Democrats, have sounded more conservative than many Republicans.

The new conservative movement is for radical change ... abolishing the Human Rights Commission ... the freedom to publicly attack homosexuality ... major senate reform .. They want to take the country back to the 1950's when only white male Christians had any say.

[Jack Weber]

I haven't voted Conservative provincially since the Mike Harris nightmare, so admit I don't really know much about him. I remember when he was running against Flaherty for leadership of the party, he was considered to be less right-wing. Does that mean much?

It's only recently that I've learned his 'faults'. Can't imagine who will take his place.

Unfortunately,I can.It'll be the MPP from my riding of Niagara West Glanbrook,Tim Hudak...

I've never voted for him,he's a right wing kook.He backed Flaharty for the leadership of the PC's when Jimmy Boy thought jailing the homeless was a good idea.I live in a generally rural riding,so it's not shocking that right wing kook gets the bumpkins attention around here.They seem to be captivated by the simpleton,bumper sticker sloganeering.

All I can say is I hope Hudak wins,the party will go farther to the rightand farther into the political backwater.

Who needs crypto fascists,right?

[Canadian Blue]

As to funding the Canadian Arab Federation, you obviously didn't read my post fully. I was pointing out that while Kenney was trying to suggest that the group received almost 1/2 million from the federal gov't, he was wrong. That was part of a larger immigration project and the Arab federation received only about 5% of that, or less than $ $25,000.00 He was posturing and misrepresenting the facts.

Yes, and you stated that if we didn't fund them we'd be denying their "right to freedom of speech."

So you're still fully supportive of funding your own pet causes.

I just oppose their occupation in Gaza and murder of women and children.

Yeah, it's so hard not to oppose the murder of women and children. That is unless it's Israeli women and children, in which case you're more or less neutral.

Anyone claiming to be Christian and supporting this war, is not a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, because he was not pro-war by any stretch of the imagination. In fact if he was alive today he would be part of the religous left and would probably be voting NDP.

That's an absurd claim. Jesus didn't tell his followers to go around and take other peoples money by force, besides Jesus would probably be pro-life in all circumstances, the NDP isn't and won't even allow those who disagree with their policy on abortion to run for office. May I remind you that Father Neuhaus was at onetime a left wing Priest, however he abandoned liberalism due to their support of abortion which he saw as destructive to life.

If anything Jesus was likely an anarchist in the mould of the Catholic Worker Movement.

What passes as Christian values these days, like intolerance, war and hatred of Muslims, are not the values of the religion's founder.

I haven't heard much war mongering from most Christians, they've stated that they pray for the safety of our troops and that's about it. As for intolerance, well of course, Jesus wasn't completely tolerant himself as their were some things which abhorred him. As for hatred of Muslims, get over yourself, the fact you think that Christians can't be critical of other religions is ridiculous.

However I am intolerant of things like female circumcision, honour killings, sharia law, and forced marriages.

And to conservatism and how it's been distorted, there's an interesting article about John McCain, because apparently he was booed by the Christian Right for not being 'conservative' enough.

Actually that's conservatives in general believing he's not conservative enough.

"Starting with Barry Goldwater’s campaign of 1964, American conservatism repositioned itself as a revolutionary movement... Burke would have wondered at this. And in 2008 he might have noticed that, if conservatism is as much a temperament as it is any particular set of policies, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, both Democrats, have sounded more conservative than many Republicans.

You really don't know anything about Edmund Burke. First of all Edmund Burke wasn't a socialist like you seem to think, he would have likely abhorred the New Deal and many other government programs that seeked to absolve man of his responsibilities to other individuals. Second, the fact that Barry Goldwater believed that the United States government should be limited and be consitutional at all times isn't as revolutionary as it is reactionary.

Do you know who Edmund Burke was Progressive Tory, you do realize that he wasn't part of the Jacobin faction right?

The new conservative movement is for radical change ... abolishing the Human Rights Commission ... the freedom to publicly attack homosexuality

No, we're for the liberties that every man should have at birth. The government does not own a man's tongue, nor should it.

So what you're now saying is that you have full trust in a federal bureaucrat regulating what you say and what your thoughts should be. Once again Progressive Tory, you're not a conservative. If you think that people should be punished for their thoughts then you should stop calling yourself a conservative.

major senate reform

Actually that would be considered a far more liberal notion since it would make the Senate democratic, which invariably leads to a Nazi like state apparently.

They want to take the country back to the 1950's when only white male Christians had any say.

This is such an absurd statement that I don't even know where to start. First of all you state the conservatives are for "radical change," yet now you argue that they are in fact reactionary in wanting Canada to go back to the 1950's. But this is especially stupid because in my hometown in rural Alberta we elected one of the first female MLA's in 1940 in a district which was largely white and protestant.

So here's what apparently makes you a conservative Progressive Tory:

1. You are ashamed of our nations history. [based on your absurd view that Canada before Trudeau was a horrible place]

2. You support the federal government creating programs to solve social justice issues and propose redistributing the wealth of a nation.

3. You oppose freedom of speech in favour of bureaucrats deciding what can and can't be said. You therefore support the notion that the government has ownership over a persons tongue when they are born.

4. You seem to believe that Barry Goldwater wasn't a conservative because he wanted to rule by Constitutional principles.

5. You believe most Christians are intolerant, war mongers, and gay bashers who happen to hate Islam.

6. You believe the state can be purifying agent in the nation through social engineering.

7. You oppose the Monarchy and all traditions we recieved from the British Empire.

Canadian conservatism never left you, more or less because you were never part of it. You're more like our friend Jack Weber, the kind of individual who has a hatred for rural folk and think our world is better off if it's run by government bureaucrats instead of independent individuals.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Canadian Blue