CAS is more harmful to children than physical discipline by parents

[Oleg Bach]

I saw this father - entering the Jewish Family and Child Services --- He was irrate and in a panic---I had buisness there assisting my brother - who by the way is not Jewish - nor was the mother nor were the kids..THIS father kept looking at me in the lobby and asked repeatedly "who is in charge here?" - I gave it a moments thought and considered who was REALLY in control of the place - so I gave him the name of a henchperson underling that basically was the alpha female on the upper floor - The father looked at me and said " They lied to me and took my children" - so up he went to deal with the hag ----This woman was eventually suffled around in the ranks - and when questioned in court where this worker was? No one wanted to tell us her location - or whether she had been removed as suggested.

This woman was a bloated bull dozer and a sadistic lunitic - during a access hearing (they brought 14 social workder equipped with prepared affidavits to testify against my brother who is a very good provider and very protective of his two boys... THIS lady near the end of the 7 day hearing...wore a bright red cloak that she left out side the court room --- on the last day when they LOST - she placed a bloody surgical gloves on top of HER coat and under those gloves was a book called The Killing Time" - this was a threat to harm the children..because we were not compliant to their demands and dominace.

..I saw it all - dealing with their flag ship..If it were not for the diligent efforts of my brother and I - the boys would have been destroyed with drugs and abuse...We spent five years in the court and bled them dry - defending themselves - NOW they do not bother my brother and all is fine -----IF they think you are weak and can not hurt them..they will eat you...if you bite - they have second thoughts.

[bjre]

If we go back in time to the days before there were any children's aid agencies, children were abused with impugnity, unless they went to far and killed them. In England 150 years ago, boys were sold to workhouses to pay off debts and girls were sold into prostitution. Are you advocating a return to the old "anything goes" standard where nobody stepped in to help children born into horrible situations?

Now is not the back time 150 years ago. If boys were sold, that is a crime and we have cops to deal with that.

Read it again! "16% of indicated reports of abuse and neglect in foster care are retrospective reports that occurred prior to foster care placement." Those are false reports, since it states plainly that the actual abuse happened to the children before they were placed in foster care.

As you suggested, I have read it again and find all the 3 authors are social workers. It is easily make others suppose the study was based on carefully selected 300 cases and made the "statistics".

Caused by CAS! You have no basis to make such an assertion, especially from the information you cited. Children left in abusive homes may be even more dysfunctional and prone to criminal behaviour. The fact is Children's Aid does not get calls from the police regarding normal family situations....they aren't likely to have police knocking on their doors in the first place. They are taking abused kids from bad situations, so the odds of growing up normal are already severely reduced. As your link says:

"We're taking them out of very difficult family circumstances, bringing them into state care and then we're charging them for their behaviour. It's very concerning to me," Finlay said.

Many of them are not very difficult family circumstances, like the case in the post #75, CAS just need to say, if you still come hospital tomorrow, we will have to suspect you have mental problem and take the 2 kids away, I believe the mother will no longer dare to come to hospital again. If they are really think of the kids, they should tell the mother what is the better method, such as go to see his family doctor. If she don't trust her family doctor, she can try several walk-in clinics and take opinion from different doctors. But CAS will lost the chance to take about $60,000 a year from tax payers. So CAS won't do that. The social worker will be fired if he/she can not take in kids when his name is "in-take" worker.

The report, which was obtained by CBC News, lays much of the blame on group homes that rely too heavily on police to resolve problems that could be handled by staff.

Kids have been charged for everything from refusing to read a book or hitting someone with a tea towel, Finlay said. One group home in Ontario called police 400 times in a single year

That is because CAS and group home don't know how to educate kids, they just good at take kids away from their home and bully, they have no idea how to educate them. And good kids mixed with bad kids and bully teachers, if they don't bad enough, they will be bullied by others.

So, they're taking kids from bad situations, putting them in group homes, and then over-reacting when the kids commit minor and petty infractions -- calling the police, and making them liable for criminal charges. The child advocate doesn't mention that low payed group home staffers have to often deal with violent, dangerous youths, and that may cause them to over-react.

Again, most of it are not so bad, maybe just need a few talk.

But once again, the group homes are there because these children were not adopted, and then got to old to be placed in foster homes. What is your alternative?

After the kids were "protected", near half or more become real criminals. It won't be so many if they were not rob away from their own families. The best alternative is to leave the kids home and warn the family and educate them. Only remove them when crime happened instead of using word "risk" to put kids into real risk places unless parents ask for that.

In this way, we will have a more peaceful nation and everyone include every senior and every kid will save more than $200s a year for CAS and the related crimes.

Edited June 17, 2009 by bjre

[bjre]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1690967

Children's Aid Society workers should be reined in, critics say

Kevin Libin, National Post

Published: Friday, June 12, 2009

....

Canada's child-welfare agencies, says University of Manitoba social work professor Brad McKenzie, have among the broadest intervention powers in the Western world.

Caseworkers come armed with vaster powers than any police officer investigating crime. It is an immense authority easily abused, without vigilant restraint.

It is time, critics say, they were reined in.

"The social worker system, as it applies to children, is out of control, seriously out of control," says Katherine McNeil, a children's advocate who has worked with families in Nova Scotia and B.C. "And nobody's doing anything about it."

Child-welfare agencies step in when kids are homeless, exploited, hungry or abused. They do not stop there. As the highly publicized neo-Nazi case in Winnipeg demonstrates, they might seize children from parents for teaching racist views, or for "emotional neglect." They have taken newborns from parents considered insufficiently intelligent; from religious families believing the Bible commands them to discipline kids with a rod. They order homeschooling parents to enroll children in public school, deeming them inadequately socialized.

"They violate all kinds of privacy and rights," says Chris Klicka, senior counsel for the Home School Defense League, which represents Canadian and American parents.

Whether we wanted it or not, knew it or not, over time, the work of child-welfare organizations has become "parenting by the state and the imposition of their value system on other people," says Marty McKay, a clinical psychologist who has worked on abuse cases in the U.S and Canada. Provincial agencies have the power to intervene when children are considered "at risk" of abuse or neglect - even if none has actually occurred. Or, where spousal abuse happens, but kids are untouched. And what they do with the children they take can sometimes be worse than what they suffered at home.

[Dave_ON]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1690967

So why is it that this social workers opinion is valid but not the opinion of other social workers? Is it solely because this one happens to agree with you at least in some aspects? I thought all social workers were “evil” as you put it and only in it for the money, that they didn't care about children. Why is Brad McKenzie different?

WIP you're wasting your breath on bjre, he will site endless sources of dubious quality and any sources you site, regardless of any validity that they have will be rationalized away as irrelevant because they don’t coincide with his view. Rather than address the content he calls into question the source as if that somehow proves his point, because he, the ultimate authority has deemed it so. You’re trying to reason with someone who denies the atrocities of Tianamen square. While wiki isn’t always the most reliable this particular article sites 117 separate sources, all of which I’m sure bjre will call into question as CIA/FED sources thereby discounting their viability or validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Squ...rotests_of_1989

This is someone who was raised by an authoritarian society and is no doubt running his own home in an authoritarian manner. He thinks there are absolutely no problems whatsoever with the PRC. What baffles us all is why if China is such a Utopia on earth, he chooses to stay in Canada and harangue us. Maybe the solution is to send the PLA after CAS, I’m certain that would fix all our problems.

[bjre]

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics...html?id=1696112

The problem with Children's Aid

National Post

Published: Monday, June 15, 2009

For many years here in Ontario, the Children's Aid Society (CAS) has shown itself to be one of the most corrupt corporations. And it is not getting any better. In Oshawa, Ont., a priest sued the CAS for corruption and lying in documents. He won, but it cost him over $300,000 to finally have a judge rule in his favour. CAS's response: It simply moved the worker cited in the case from Oshawa to London, Ont. /

Edited June 17, 2009 by bjre

[Oleg Bach]

15 thousand children in the greater GTA in their "care" - now look at that astounding figure - how many adult "workers" do you think this industry employs though these poor children - mothers and distraught and estranged fathers? This is a massive industry - and a very lucrative one at that --- WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO DO? To give up their jobs and stop being parasites on the weak - uninformed and those too young to understand? You are talking about 50 thousand jobs - plus big pharma - as with welfare types - makes billions on this operation - and we pay for it - but do not benefit by it - nor do the wards of CAS.

This is a massive operation - connected to the medical profession - to the legal one - and to people who run universities who are Trotskyites - who use CAS facilties as experimental stations on social engineering ----like I said ------------they treat their clients like lab rats.

[WIP]

So why is it that this social workers opinion is valid but not the opinion of other social workers? Is it solely because this one happens to agree with you at least in some aspects? I thought all social workers were “evil” as you put it and only in it for the money, that they didn't care about children. Why is Brad McKenzie different?

That's the authoritarian mindset: the experts who agree with our aims are right, those who don't are wrong.

WIP you're wasting your breath on bjre, he will site endless sources of dubious quality and any sources you site, regardless of any validity that they have will be rationalized away as irrelevant because they don’t coincide with his view. Rather than address the content he calls into question the source as if that somehow proves his point, because he, the ultimate authority has deemed it so.

I know, I've wasted time previously when he's started these anti-Children's Aid threads; but the subject has been a learning process for me, since I've been able to learn about the problems in the system, and the strains these agencies are feeling because of funding cutbacks at a time when they are receiving more calls from police and other officials to investigate cases of abuse.

I was surprised how much of the condemnation of CAS in the media is unfounded, because it is based on abuse that occurred prior to CAS intervention, false claims by birth parents looking for revenge, and abuse that has occurred when the children were placed with relatives of the birth parents.

I am starting to notice that media, right wing media like the Sun newspapers and the National Post in particular, are promoting this subject by placing every story about CAS abuse and group home abuse cases on the front page in banner headlines, whereas the abuse stories by parents - even in cases that cause death, are buried, if reported at all. A cynic might conclude that the right is actively trying to kneecap social agencies in their family values campaign, and return us back to the days of glorious patriarchy, when fathers could get away with anything except killing their wives and children.

This is someone who was raised by an authoritarian society and is no doubt running his own home in an authoritarian manner. He thinks there are absolutely no problems whatsoever with the PRC. What baffles us all is why if China is such a Utopia on earth, he chooses to stay in Canada and harangue us. Maybe the solution is to send the PLA after CAS, I’m certain that would fix all our problems.

There have been a number of interesting psychological studies about conservatives and liberals of late. In general, conservatives are much less likely to question authority and stress loyalty to their leaders. I guess that's why I didn't last in the conservative movement. Many conservative ideas sounded good to me while they had little actual power; but now that this Republican-style conservative mix of religion, militarism and social darwinism is flexing its muscles, the authoritarian nature of conservative political philosophy is unmistakable.

Edited June 17, 2009 by WIP

[Oleg Bach]

Old arch conservatives trust authority - because they are authority.

[bjre]

Lots of stories here:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...-them-quot.aspx

Kevin Libin: Readers detail rarely-seen ugly side of child-protection agencies

Posted: June 16, 2009, 4:36 PM by Kevin Libin

Since retiring twenty years ago I have done a lot of advocacy work and I have built up a shocking dossier of abuse by social workers, who were fully aided and abetted by their superiors at every level. Nobody seems to care about it. Politicians are scared to touch them.

What a great story . . .CAS is so corrupt . . . As an advocate in Ontario I have seen 1000s of cases and read all information on the cases. From police officer who were former crown wards to doctor being threatened to favor CAS and being over-paid to do it. The most common thing I see is discrimination. Why have the charter when a parent loses their child because they are legally blind or in a wheelchair? Julian Fantino said it best in 2001 "we can find a missing car in 24 hours but a missing child maybe never found, that’s child protection in Ontario.” But, great story. Families affected by cas/cfsa need more stories like this one to tell the truth.

[Oleg Bach]

Spent five solid years assisting my brother in a law suit against these people..read every document - countered every document sent by their lawyers - eventually I had over a hundred pounds of documentation - and just about all of it was some sort of weak justification for kidnap. They twisted and turned and convoluted - conspired - committed fraud - even engaged my brothers original lawyer to assist them at the end of the suit - by hiding the original indorsement - the key piece of paper that would have won us the suit - all papers were within the affidavit of documents but not this one --- my bothers lawyer said in the early stages - "do not fire me in public - I have to work with these people" CAS and my brothers lawyer conspired and ruined him - he lost his house - his reputation - and tons of money and could barely keep from weeping most of the time -- my younger brother would say "why are they doing this to me?" --- Finally after loosing the suit - I provided her honour the Justice Minister - with three affidavits - one from myself - one from my brother and one from his wife - stating we were not present during the first hearing.

When after five years we found out about this - we dug up the transcript - that was difficult to obtain - with in that trascript we saw ---- a CAS rep --- my brothers lawyer ---and the line ----------------- "the brothers are present today in the body of the court your honour..I have spoken to the father - and he agrees to grant consent to the keeping of the boys by the society...to para phrase -------------------------WE WERE NOT THERE.

[Oleg Bach]

Sent a personal snail mail to Beverly big cheese in Ottawa - insisting that she is a judge and to judge this - she did not judge - they had some fancey law firm - create a story and it was published- it had nothing to do with what happened - all it said was - the father has no right to know anything about anything - we inadvertently assisted the bastards in harming more families...I warned my brother that we would just educate them on how good independent people think - and they would use that information to counter who ever else dared to stand up for familiar human rights!

[canfan]

CAS is more harmful to children than physical discipline by parents

A recent report shows 90 kids were die in the care of CAS in Ontario. The death rate is one out of every 300 kids die yearly in care of CAS include high rate of suicide, homicide, and accidental death.

http://www.thestar.com/article/591523

You've posted so many sources but in your very 1st post you've proven that you don't read what you post. You claim that 90 kids died in the care of CAS but if you'd actually read your source you'd see it doesn't support your claim.

The report provides broad geographical information about where in the province the children died, but there is no information about ethnicity, family income and community resources, or if the child was in foster care or living with parents. (In an interview, a spokesperson for the coroner's office said 14 of the classified deaths in 2007 were children in foster care.)

[bjre]

The Archbishop Dorian A. Baxter speaks at Queens Park about CAS

The Archbishop Dorian A. Baxter speaks in front of the legislature buildings at Queen's Park about how children's aid agencies need to be held accountable to the citizens of Ontario.

Archbishop Baxter also describes some of the details of his own case where the Durham Childrens' Aid Society workers were caught lying in court and attempting to blackmail him.

The abuse of children and families in both Canada and the USA has become a major problem as many of these child protection agencies generate significant government monies from creating work for themselves.

http://vimeo.com/7059519

Ontario Member of Parliament, Randy Hillier, speaks on the secrecy of Children's Aid Societies

In front of the Legislature at Queen's Park, MPP Randy Hillier speaks about the the lack of accountability and transparency with Ontario's children's aid agencies. Mr. Hillier speaks about one case in which the Children's Aid Society and a lawyer with Ontario's Office of the Children's Lawyer refused to abide by the law. Mr. Hillier feels that only those agencies with something to hide continue to be opposed to transparency and accountability.

Mr. Hillier has been a strong advocate for greater transparency and accountability with the province's children's aid agencies which are out of control and spending hundreds of millions of our tax dollars needlessly. The people of Ontario need more elected representatives like Mr. Hillier who are willing to stand up for children and famlies in the Province of Ontario.

http://vimeo.com/7006950

Minister speaks about abuse of families by Children's Aid Society

The Rev Stephen Rudd from Hamilton, Ontario speaks about his experience with the CAS during his 25 years as a church Minister. He has seen countlessl horror stories of children and families being abused by Ontario's privately operated CAS agencies.

Rev Rudd believes that the government of Ontario must take the job of protecting children out of the hands of unaccountable CAS agencies and put this task under the direct control of government ministries who would be accountable.

http://vimeo.com/6961550

[Melanie_]

Now is not the back time 150 years ago. If boys were sold, that is a crime and we have cops to deal with that.

What about the girls? Why have you only responded to the part of the post that dealt with abuse of boys?

[Pliny]

Interesting thread.

Oleg made some good points. It is quite the industry. The solutions offered by government to "resolve" child abuse seem to be that of hopping out of the frying pan.

[bjre]

If we go back in time to the days before there were any children's aid agencies, children were abused with impugnity, unless they went to far and killed them. In England 150 years ago, boys were sold to workhouses to pay off debts and girls were sold into prostitution. Are you advocating a return to the old "anything goes" standard where nobody stepped in to help children born into horrible situations?

Now is not the back time 150 years ago. If boys were sold, that is a crime and we have cops to deal with that.

What about the girls? Why have you only responded to the part of the post that dealt with abuse of boys?

If girls were sold, that is a crime and we have cops to deal with that.

I answered boys because original post talk about boy. Don't use the classic CAS and Canadian politician bias to people from China to talk about this.

The ratio of women in Chinese congress and in Canadian parliaments are similar.

in Canada, 22.1% of seats in the House of Commons currently held by women. http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0562-e.htm

In China, 21.3% seats are occupied by women. http://lianghui.china.com.cn/2009lianghui/2009-03/09/content_17405293.htm (in Chinese)

One of the worst human right situation in Canada is caused by CAS or police legal attacking parents based on bias instead of fact.

They say because you are from China, Chinese people like boy, your daughter is a girl, so you will not like her, so you will abuse her, and we need to take her away, according to this logic, people from China can not have girl. How ugly CAS is.

Did you teach your CAS students as this? Are you a racist?

Edited November 19, 2009 by bjre

[Melanie_]

If girls were sold, that is a crime and we have cops to deal with that.

I answered boys because original post talk about boy. Don't use the classic Canadian bias to people from China to talk about this.

Read the rest of the sentence you responded to:

In England 150 years ago, boys were sold to workhouses to pay off debts and girls were sold into prostitution.

I just asked why you would only mention one in your response. And, one of the worst human rights situations in Canada is children being left in abusive families because people like you think it is ok for parents to do whatever they want to them, without any interference from society at large.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Melanie_

[bjre]

Why CAS love to use bias? It is because they want more money. Each child "in care" will bring them money from tax payers. They want use any means they can find to take kids into their control. No matter how dirty it is. They are evils.

[bjre]

I just asked why you would only mention one in your response. And, one of the worst human rights situations in Canada is children being left in abusive families because people like you think it is ok for parents to do whatever they want to them, without any interference from society at large.

I don't think it is good if parent actually abuse their kids.

However, I do believe parent abuse kids bring less social problems than CAS abuse families.

Edited November 19, 2009 by bjre

[Guest TrueMetis]

Why CAS love to use bias? It is because they want more money. Each child "in care" will bring them money from tax payers. They want use any means they can find to take kids into their control. No matter how dirty it is. They are evils.

It seems like every couple of days you put out some bullshit thread "The Canadian Governemnt won't let people label whatever the hell they want as medicine they're dictators and supress human rights' or now "The CAS take kids away from abusive parents, they are evil and only after money". Your not very in tune with how stuff works in Canada are you?

Edited November 19, 2009 by TrueMetis

[bjre]

It seems like every couple of days you put out some bullshit thread "The Canadian Governemnt won't let people label whatever the hell they want as medicine they're dictators and supress human rights' or now "The CAS take kids away from abusive parents, they are evil and only after money". Your not very in tune with how stuff works in Canada are you?

I did not plan to post anything today before I saw Melanie_'s reply on my post.

[ToadBrother]

I don't think it is good if parent actually abuse their kids.

However, I do believe parent abuse kids bring less social problems than CAS abuse families.

Care to back that up with some numbers?

[bjre]

Care to back that up with some numbers?

1.1) If a parent abuse a child not hard, it cause one person has some harm. It is not good, if there is wound, it will cure very soon.

1.2) If CAS abuse a family, 3 family members (father, mother, and the kid) will be harmed for years. If kid be take away, the problem will go to other families and bring more people involved. And tax payer will start to pay $87 a day. At least 5 people's normal life will be harmed or affected strongly plus extra cost wasted that can contribute to the cost level of production in Canada. (Ontario CAS cost more than 1.4 billion a year, not include related court cost, police cost, jail cost, lawyer cost, and others)

2) No family can cause deaths of thousands kids as government involved:

"Thousands of children died in this manner in the Indian Residential Schools, and not one person in Canada has ever been charged for the death of a child there, or brought to trial. The government is even forbidding names of perpetrators to be named. We will not allow these churches to get away with murder. We call upon others to come forward and name those responsible for the death and torture of innocent children in the residential schools."

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/RecentUpdatesampArticles/May272009MurderatResidentialSchoolDescribed/tabid/99/Default.aspx

Edited November 19, 2009 by bjre

[ToadBrother]

1.1) If a parent abuse a child not hard, it cause one person has some harm. It is not good, if there is wound, it will cure very soon.

1.2) If CAS abuse a family, 3 family members (father, mother, and the kid) will be harmed for years. If kid be take away, the problem will go to other families and bring more people involved. And tax payer will start to pay $87 a day. At least 5 people's normal life will be harmed or affected strongly plus extra cost wasted that can contribute to the cost level of production in Canada. (Ontario CAS cost more than 1.4 billion a year, not include related court cost, police cost, jail cost, lawyer cost, and others)

2) No family can cause deaths of thousands kids as government involved:

"Thousands of children died in this manner in the Indian Residential Schools, and not one person in Canada has ever been charged for the death of a child there, or brought to trial. The government is even forbidding names of perpetrators to be named. We will not allow these churches to get away with murder. We call upon others to come forward and name those responsible for the death and torture of innocent children in the residential schools."

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/RecentUpdatesampArticles/May272009MurderatResidentialSchoolDescribed/tabid/99/Default.aspx

Oh good, now we can go for red herrings.

I take it from this that you in fact have no evidence of your initial claim, and will not start heading in other directions to avoid having to admit you don't have the evidence.

[Melanie_]

I don't think it is good if parent actually abuse their kids.

However, I do believe parent abuse kids bring less social problems than CAS abuse families.

How are you defining abuse? If a child is filthy, starved, crawling with vermin, is that better than being in the care of CAS? If a child is beaten daily with whatever object their parent finds at hand, is that better than being in the care of CAS? If a child is starved, shot at with a BB gun, pushed down the stairs, dragged by their hair, is that better than being in the care of CAS? If a child is raped, or forced to perform oral sex on their parent, is that better than being in the care of CAS? If a child is drugged and used to make child pornography, is that better than being in the care of CAS?

Do you really think all children are better off with their parents?