ToadBrother Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) It's really irrelevant what you think it is as you're not involved in it directly. Hamas sees it has a Holy War so to them it is. Just because you don't believe it to be doesn't it make it so. Be fair please TB. I'm sure Hamas doesn't view at as a holy war any more than the IRA or the Protestant paramilitaries did. Religion is often a convenient handle to hang on these sorts of things. Just because people call it a "religious" struggle doesn't make it one. The Palestinian problem has never been about religion, but about the rather inept way in which Britain basically flew the coupe over its obligations when its empire collapsed. Edited January 14, 2009 by ToadBrother Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I'm sure Hamas doesn't view at as a holy war any more than the IRA or the Protestant paramilitaries did. Religion is often a convenient handle to hang on these sorts of things. Just because people call it a "religious" struggle doesn't make it one. The Palestinian problem has never been about religion, but about the rather inept way in which Britain basically flew the coupe over its obligations when its empire collapsed. Not to mention the problems created by the UN. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
ToadBrother Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Not to mention the problems created by the UN. And by Israel. The fact is there are no "good guys" in this whole thing. The Palestinians deserve a lot of blame, if for no other reason than being under the illusion that the Arab world would forever seek the destruction of Israel. Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 And by Israel. The fact is there are no "good guys" in this whole thing. The Palestinians deserve a lot of blame, if for no other reason than being under the illusion that the Arab world would forever seek the destruction of Israel. What did the Israels do other than defend themselves? How many wars have they defended themselves in then had the interference of the west in ending those wars before the issue could be decided. Most of the problems their now have been augmented by our intervention from the west. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
KeyStone Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I have a thick skin, anyone who refers to Israeli's as Zionists are not interested in debating. To me that name indicates they are conspiracy theory wacko's. the word Zionist is also usually used as a derogitory term. Look, let's not get our panties in a knot. I use the term Zionist to mean those that want to encourage more Jews moving to Israel, and possibly further expansion of the Israeli borders. In terms of some of the things, that the Israeli supporters have said, and I paraphrase: - Palestinians are animals - Rachel Corrie was an idiot and should win the Darwin award - Israel should finish the job in Palestine this time - Totality is the only way to really be humane - Palestinians are delighted when their children are killed by the Israelis So, please drop the histrionics because I used the word Zionist. Quote
Muddy Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 The comparisons between how Britian handeled the IRA and how Israel handles the Hamas terror is fundamentally different. The IRA were not elected represenatives of Northern Ireland. So it was not all out war of nation to nation. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine and fights in their name. The Palestinians had choice. They chose unwisely and now reap what they sowed. Hamas never hid their intentions during the election. The Palestinians voted for Hamas knowingly. What is it they expected? Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Posted January 14, 2009 IRA were not elected represenatives of Northern Ireland. So it was not all out war of nation to nation. Sinn Fein. The major difference is the Irish are a modern semi civilised people...you can't name one irish suicide bomber... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Muddy Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Sinn Fein.The major difference is the Irish are a modern semi civilised people...you can't name one irish suicide bomber... The Irish civilized? I got dragged into an alley in Belfast one night by a gang of hoods. With a gun to my head they asked me if I was a Mick or a prod? I claimed I was Jewish. This stunned the thugs and they had a wee conference. They came back and asked if I was a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew? Quote
Argus Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Nothing to be proud of. Israel and Palestine must recognize each other's right to exist. Too many children are becoming collateral damage. Big shock that Harper is backing the US though....NOT! Big shock that a Leftist hates Israel and pays no attention whatsoever to the terrorism perpetrated against Israel. Big shock that a Leftist doesn't want Canada to stand up for fairness but to join in with the likes of Saudi Arabia and China in condemning "human rights abuses". Big shock that a Leftist hates Americans and decides that Canada taking a firm stand on an issue on the same side as the Americans is somehow "backing the US". Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Does Israel recognize Palestine? What is Palestine? IS IT A COUNTRY ??? It used to be a small province in various other countries and empires. Later, it was split up, and part of it became the country of Jordan. The rest of it is now a province of Israel. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Hey, you missed the boat. 2000 Zionists supporters have already spewed this distribution list talking point here on the forum. Zionist supproters? Thinking people, when faced with the dilemna of whether to support a democratic state with a free judiciary which, by and large, respects human rights - or a vicious, brutal, murdering collection of terrorists and religious fanatics who deliberately attack civilians and engage in suicide bombings choose to support the democratic state. But as I said, that's for thinking people. That appears to let you out. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Look, let's not get our panties in a knot. I use the term Zionist to mean those that want to encourage more Jews moving to Israel, and possibly further expansion of the Israeli borders. In terms of some of the things, that the Israeli supporters have said, and I paraphrase: - Palestinians are animals - Rachel Corrie was an idiot and should win the Darwin award - Israel should finish the job in Palestine this time - Totality is the only way to really be humane - Palestinians are delighted when their children are killed by the Israelis So, please drop the histrionics because I used the word Zionist. Most of that is true. I suppose that makes me an evil zionist supporter! I agree with the earlier poster, though. Anyone who uses the term 'Zionist' is about as open to dialogue on this issue as Hamas. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
madmax Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I'm sure Hamas doesn't view at as a holy war nonsense... Hamas wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the occupation. Hamas grew as an alternative to the PLO which became corrupted by the riches of peace and lost the confidence of the people. Like many..... people turn to religion in search of an answer. Israel had lost interest in negotiating or even humouring the PLO (A) . A solution was required and many found support from their religion. Hama s provided the best social services of all the different groups and Hamas eventually rivaled the PLO in strength. Isael continued to pound, and undermine the PLO, then switch and eliminate a Hamas leader for the PLO and back and forth it went. Hamas is on the record for the destruction of Israel, and that is a sticking point in any peace process. However, in the vein of "Only Nixon can go to China" it will have to be Hamas that reigns in their rockets. Arafat was a "terrorist" who succeeded in getting recognition to Palestinians, who weren't recognised by anyone including Arab states. Eventually he gained authority to govern or an unconfirmed boundary. Hamas grew because of the complete failure of the peace process. After 30 years of occupation and children growing up to be middle age men in an environment where they know nothing else is a recipe for disaster. The new youth looked to religion as a solution, and the religious groups were there waiting to gain followers. Hamas views and recruits through the advocation of holy war. It is their responsibility to defend their families, relatives and muslims through jihad. Hamas can also choose peace. Quote
madmax Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Look, let's not get our panties in a knot. I use the term Zionist to mean those that want to encourage more Jews moving to Israel, and possibly further expansion of the Israeli borders. In terms of some of the things, that the Israeli supporters have said, and I paraphrase: - Palestinians are animals - Rachel Corrie was an idiot and should win the Darwin award - Israel should finish the job in Palestine this time - Totality is the only way to really be humane - Palestinians are delighted when their children are killed by the Israelis So, please drop the histrionics because I used the word Zionist. But Alta4ever isn't a Zionist. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 nonsense...Hamas wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the occupation. Hamas grew as an alternative to the PLO which became corrupted by the riches of peace and lost the confidence of the people. Like many..... people turn to religion in search of an answer. Israel had lost interest in negotiating or even humouring the PLO (A) . A solution was required and many found support from their religion. Hama s provided the best social services of all the different groups and Hamas eventually rivaled the PLO in strength. Isael continued to pound, and undermine the PLO, then switch and eliminate a Hamas leader for the PLO and back and forth it went. Hamas is on the record for the destruction of Israel, and that is a sticking point in any peace process. However, in the vein of "Only Nixon can go to China" it will have to be Hamas that reigns in their rockets. Arafat was a "terrorist" who succeeded in getting recognition to Palestinians, who weren't recognised by anyone including Arab states. Eventually he gained authority to govern or an unconfirmed boundary. Hamas grew because of the complete failure of the peace process. After 30 years of occupation and children growing up to be middle age men in an environment where they know nothing else is a recipe for disaster. The new youth looked to religion as a solution, and the religious groups were there waiting to gain followers. Hamas views and recruits through the advocation of holy war. It is their responsibility to defend their families, relatives and muslims through jihad. Hamas can also choose peace. Well said MadMax. Quote Back to Basics
ToadBrother Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Sinn Fein.The major difference is the Irish are a modern semi civilised people...you can't name one irish suicide bomber... Yes, they didn't commit suicide with bombs strapped around them, they just planted bombs in crowded places. That is soooo much more civilized. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Yes, they didn't commit suicide with bombs strapped around them, they just planted bombs in crowded places. That is soooo much more civilized. semi-civilised... Mostly, warnings were given 10 minutes or more prior to the detonation...the extremists (on both sides, REAL IRA and the UDF's would bomb without warning. Edited January 14, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Chuck U. Farlie Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 QUOTE(KeyStone @ Jan 13 2009, 08:53 PM) *Look, let's not get our panties in a knot. I use the term Zionist to mean those that want to encourage more Jews moving to Israel, and possibly further expansion of the Israeli borders. In terms of some of the things, that the Israeli supporters have said, and I paraphrase: - Palestinians are animals - Rachel Corrie was an idiot and should win the Darwin award - Israel should finish the job in Palestine this time - Totality is the only way to really be humane - Palestinians are delighted when their children are killed by the Israelis So, please drop the histrionics because I used the word Zionist. I am certainly no Zionist - I would support any country's right to defend itself from a neighbour launching rockets into their cities. While I support Israel's right to defend itself against terrorists, I never said anything about more jews moving there or expansion of their borders. Palestinians are animals - as we all are. Rachel Corrie was an idiot - who goes and stands in front of a bulldozer???? Israel should finish the job re: destroying the threat to their people. I never said Palestinians are delighted to see their children killed. I said to HAMAS these dead kids are nearly as good as dead jews - otherwise they wouldn't hide behind them. Are you suggesting that all Palestinians are Hamas and vice versa? Quote I swear to drunk I'm not god. ________________________
BigAl Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 It's one of the few ways for you to look smart. Agreed M. Dancer -- it's better for certain people (like our man Mr. Canada) to keep their metaphorical mouths shut and let people think they're stupid, than to open them and remove all doubt. Quote
DFCaper Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I think Canada did the right thing here. If the UN is going to be relevant in the future it needs to be neutral prior to there being an issue. One sided policies are what got this situation to where it is, but won't end anything, unless you want complete genocide. This one sidedness the UN has been showing over the last few years is what has weakened to UN to the point it at today. When I now here there's a UN report, I could care less. They ignore the real genocides happening in Africa but criticize everybody else. And I do think Israel is not heading down the right path for long term peace. They've proven that again and again. Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
Alta4ever Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I think Canada did the right thing here. If the UN is going to be relevant in the future it needs to be neutral prior to there being an issue. One sided policies are what got this situation to where it is, but won't end anything, unless you want complete genocide.This one sidedness the UN has been showing over the last few years is what has weakened to UN to the point it at today. When I now here there's a UN report, I could care less. They ignore the real genocides happening in Africa but criticize everybody else. And I do think Israel is not heading down the right path for long term peace. They've proven that again and again. The UN has all but proved its irrelevance. We waste funds every year on this organization it is time we shut it down. The league of Nations did not work, and the UN has proved itself not to work. It is useless and has done nothing constructive in decades. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Alta4ever Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 As for Isreal, not heading down the right path for peace that is subjective. How do you head towards peace with an enemy who does not desire it and has committed itself to the descruction of you people and your country? Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
DFCaper Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) The UN has all but proved its irrelevance. We waste funds every year on this organization it is time we shut it down. The league of Nations did not work, and the UN has proved itself not to work. It is useless and has done nothing constructive in decades. The UN may need a name change, but simular organization need to exist. It maybe should be what I think of it's primary role, that of a forum for the international community to discuss international issues. I think it just evolved into something that the world doesn't need. As for Isreal, not heading down the right path for peace that is subjective. How do you head towards peace with an enemy who does not desire it and has committed itself to the descruction of you people and your country? If I knew the answer to this, I wouldn't be spending my time reading forums... I just never wanted the anti-Israeli people to think that I was a hardliner for agreeing with Canada's position in this case. I only see 2 possible ways to stop these wars permanently. One is to eliminate one side (Which shouldn't and never will happen). The other is to end the desire of the Palestinians to destroy Israel and it's citizens. I see this war just worsening this situation. Maybe if Israel hit Hamas hard with the right hand and tried to help the citizens with the left??? Like I said, I have no idea. Hamas and other terrorist organizations have to go. With this type of offensive, it may hurt Hamas's organization, but it only strengthens it's support. Israel has the wonderful task of needing to protect it's citizens today and into the future. This offensive will only help today and hurt tomorrow. Edited January 14, 2009 by DFCaper Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
Alta4ever Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 The UN may need a name change, but simular organization need to exist. It maybe should be what I think of it's primary role, that of a forum for the international community to discuss international issues. I think it just evolved into something that the world doesn't need. The world community has tried twice to create a type of world government, it has shown that is cannot and does not work. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
madmax Posted January 15, 2009 Report Posted January 15, 2009 The world community has tried twice to create a type of world government, it has shown that is cannot and does not work. The UN has accomplished more then our Senate Seriously, the UN is the great punching bag, and as long as the UN remains a punching bag then it is neither irrellavent or a failure. The UN is not the be all and end all. But do not discount that among the highly publicized and sometimes horrific failures of the UN there are also many successes. Also do not discount that the US is the largest participant in the UN and when they do not wish to support or participate in an action or cause or back it up, the teeth of the UN turn to gums rather quickly. However, look at the success of UNSCOM in disarming Iraqs of WMD. It wasn't easy, their lives were at risk and they got the job done, regardless of the criticism from both Iraq and the US and the UK. Quote
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