Ontario

[Topaz]

Everyday, on the news I hear about the jobless going higher, foreclosures on homes, values on homes going down by 3% for now and I wonder what Ontario is going to look like in five years. There will be a election by end and who knows which party will be the unlucky one to lead it. It seems the possibility is there for everyone in Ontario will be affect by the economic slow done either by job loss or pay and benefit cuts.

[Shakeyhands]

bleak perhaps? Lots of job losses coming (including the possibility of my own) and here already, just heard Lenovo is closing its Canadian operation and I know my company is laying off hundreds toward the end of this month, in fact they have already layed off about 50 in a small sattelite office, so it's not just the auto sector, other sectors are goiung to be hammered.

[AngusThermopyle]

Thats true, the trickle down effect hits many area's. Thats why I'm rather glad that my field is still going great guns and they are still crying out for more people, even in Ontario.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Thats true, the trickle down effect hits many area's. Thats why I'm rather glad that my field is still going great guns and they are still crying out for more people, even in Ontario.

What do you do Argus?

[madmax]

What do you do Argus?

That's Angus, not to be confused with our ever helpful and well paid federal civil servant Argus.

[madmax]

bleak perhaps? Lots of job losses coming (including the possibility of my own) and here already, just heard Lenovo is closing its Canadian operation and I know my company is laying off hundreds toward the end of this month, in fact they have already layed off about 50 in a small sattelite office, so it's not just the auto sector, other sectors are goiung to be hammered.

It's never been "just the auto". Infact, Auto was one that has been gradually increasing, thus creating a constant level of crises and people have been able to visibly watch the domino effect. If the CAW had been silent this past year, (they weren't vocal last year), we would be continuing to recognise a recession, but not necessarily pay attention or care about Auto, anymore then we cared, about washerdryers, textiles, construction supplies, and food processing. It just happens to be on peoples radar screens as Auto.

When I spoke on MLW over a year ago about the industrial collapse that is occuring, mainly from foreign operation purchasing smaller Canadian operations and closing them down, eliminating competition while grabbing technology, people continued to comment on Auto, as if Auto was Industry.

HAMMERED is an understatement.

[madmax]

Everyday, on the news I hear about the jobless going higher, foreclosures on homes, values on homes going down by 3% for now and I wonder what Ontario is going to look like in five years.

It will look like the house the LIBERALS Built. Enjoy!!!

[Topaz]

It will look like the house the LIBERALS Built. Enjoy!!!

Now now, max, IF Harper can blame all his financial crisis on GLOBAL melt down why can't anyone else??? This all started with Free trade which we know isn't free, at least , not to any workers. By connecting everything to a global connection, the only ones going to be advantage are the shareholders and the CEO and owners of the billion dollar corporations going to third world countries to get richer and not necessarily to make a BETTER product.

[blueblood]

Now now, max, IF Harper can blame all his financial crisis on GLOBAL melt down why can't anyone else??? This all started with Free trade which we know isn't free, at least , not to any workers. By connecting everything to a global connection, the only ones going to be advantage are the shareholders and the CEO and owners of the billion dollar corporations going to third world countries to get richer and not necessarily to make a BETTER product.

Are you on crack? Free trade has done very well for Canada. Being as we have a positive trade balance, Free trade is in our best interests. If Canada didn't pay its auto workers 80 bucks an hour and made cars people want, then the auto sector wouldn't be in the mess that its in. The auto sector was in trouble before the recession, the recession just sped the process up. What's wrong with investing in third world countries? The richer they get, the more of our products they buy.

[Yorkness]

I think Ontario has an amazing potential and therefore ability to innovate it's market. Five years may not be the time frame to look too brightly upon but in a decade I believe Ontario can be again at the forefront of Canada's economy. Diversification of Ontario's industry and population will occur, allowing everybody to be in the right place for the right thing. Ontarian emigration to Alberta for example, allowed some of the unemployed, unskilled labor force to make use of their abilities. I hardly can say which industries will emerge in Ontario to once again invigorate it's economy but I think education and technology could help. Ontario is home to a very high number of Universities, many of them very good, and some provinces in Canada only have one or two. I believe the service industry is also much more capable than most of Canada's. Technology, such as biotechnology, is a big thing there and thay industry could be built upon as well.

[madmax]

Are you on crack? Free trade has done very well for Canada.

In many circumstances yes, in many circumstances no. It is a mixed bag. Canada can look great on paper.... I look at the local economy. Free Trade is an agreement that isn't "free trade". It could simply called a "trade agreement" but the word "free" is a beautiful marketing ploy. We have had many trade agreements in the past. Some on a more individual basis then the broad outline of the FTA and NAFTA. Often on these one on one agreements Canada did very well and could exercise its leverage and independance and its sovereignty. The reverse was also true of our trading partner.

Being as we have a positive trade balance,

I don't recall a time when Canada didn't have a positive trade balance. But what is clear, with the glory of NAFTA and the NAFTA preachers we have lost our #1 trading partner status to the US to be replaced by CHINA who has no such agreement.

If Canada didn't pay its auto workers 80 bucks an hour and made cars people want, then the auto sector wouldn't be in the mess that its in.

It certainly would be in the situation it is in. Autoworkers paid far less in other countries are victim to the same set of circumstances and the economic forces and the same auto corporations.

Your Mexican and Korean vehicles cost the same as the Japanese vehicles. North American vehicles made offshore and in Mexico cost the same as ones made here. VWs made around the globe cost the same here. Infact, many vehicles made here, sell for less in the US then we can purchase them here, and that is dictated by the manufacturers, not the government.

The only thing an $80 wage has an effect upon, is that it is one of many factors an autogiant looks upon when choosing to build a new plant or relocate.

As for making cars or vehicles people want, perhaps you are missing something. All Auto manufacturers overproduced, and Toyota is sitting with at least a 4 month inventory. Unusual for a company that never makes more then it sells.

GM made a fortune on its SUV and Large Trucks. Their cars sell for less then the Japanese and Koreans. the Japanese choose to enter the large truck market, dropping their own small trucks. GM maintained its small truck line as did Chrysler/Dodge.

Don't mistake the fact that GM was relocating its Oshawa truck plant for closing truck manufacturing completely. Their intent was to use the new Mexican facility in order to avoid the 80$ wage your worry so much about, and because of the lower currency, and energy costs. ALso Mexico was about to overtake Canada as the number 1 supplier of Autos to the US. (Free trade again:)

Regardless of Canadian operations being more productive, award winning and profitable, these decisions are made at boardroom tables with thoughts decades into the future.

In the midst of this relocation, came the high energy costs and fuel shot up. Many people attributed the truck operation to fuel costs, but that is not the case. That would be a problem of the future for the GM facility in Mexico, but the technology paid for here (hybrid truck) had already been developed and would be built in Mexico if necessary.

In the meantime, Nissan couldn't build a truck for the life of them, and farmed it out to Chrysler.

As for the dire straits of Auto, Chrysler is owned by a company with enough financial resources to buy it 10 times over.

The auto sector was in trouble before the recession, the recession just sped the process up. What's wrong with investing in third world countries? The richer they get, the more of our products they buy.

You are right, and our products are natural resources to aid in their industrial production to sell goods to us. We don't have access to those 3rd world markets, and while Japan would be a nice coup, I would be hard pressed to know just what product we are going to sell to China that we don't already have a market for there?

[madmax]

I think Ontario has an amazing potential and therefore ability to innovate it's market. Five years may not be the time frame to look too brightly upon but in a decade I believe Ontario can be again at the forefront of Canada's economy. Diversification of Ontario's industry and population will occur, allowing everybody to be in the right place for the right thing.

You sound like a politician. Ontario is a diversified Province. Industry is a key part of that diversification. If you lose it you become less diversified. Ontario will not be at the forefront of the Canadian economy anymore then it currently is. It has great potential to slip and continue to slide into a non skilled economy with well trained and educated workforce.

Ontarian emigration to Alberta for example, allowed some of the unemployed, unskilled labor force to make use of their abilities.

Nothing like insulting people. It is the unskilled labour force which goes to Alberta and returns to Ontario. Regardless of the higher wages for "unskilled" general labour and service sector work, the cost of living is beyond the means of many of those people to stay in Alberta.

However, the Skilledworkforces is in such demand that Ontario has been bleeding skilled labour to Alberta, where the job postings are still steady.

Sorry bub, but every skilled trade I could put on a train, bus or Plane and fly out to Alberta in a heartbeat, and Ontario is the poorer for it.

Every person who leaves their non transferable, non credential trade and gets retrained by Ontario, faces few jobs and piss poor pay, but that ticket is a ticket to freedom out west, where they make far more then they ever made in Ontario.

On top of that Ontarios private sector is only 6% Unionized, where as in Alberta has a high private sector unionized rate just over 30%.

Some believe they died and went to heaven. Many of those from Auto/Farm/ etc find the work easy, but the drug use and alcohol in Alberta to be a very dangerous situation.

I hardly can say which industries will emerge in Ontario to once again invigorate it's economy but I think education and technology could help.

How has it worked so far? Do you have any idea how much technological equipment, intellectual property, etc is being sucked out of this economy for the last 4 years?

All these plans of "education and technology" come from bozos that have never been involved in manufacturing and think people in manufacturing operations are a bunch of dummies. It is those same group of people who used to piss me off calling me farmer, and farm boy, because "farmers were stupid, or uneducated".

Farming is industrial in nature, and thus it is understandable why manufacturers set up in farming communities.

There are many farms with full machineshops in their barns.... of course the work is drying up for them as the industries leave.

Ontario is home to a very high number of Universities, many of them very good, and some provinces in Canada only have one or two.

Yes there is a University in Windsor, Hamilton, Thunderbay, etc. training people is only half the equation. The employment opportunities must exist. There are also community colleges and private training and college facilities but since you didn't mention them, they probably don't count in your mind.

I am University Educated, and I didn't enter a manufacturing field until in my late 30s. I was on the other side, service sector, business and marketing. So, I believed in many of the myths.

If you want to have fun, the meat grinder of JIT production, shipping and 5S, 6 Sigma and Kaizen is a treat for anyone to see management by stress and stressed out management. Its all fun.

But talking to so many managers in new fields, they are happy with the slower quieter pace with far less responsibility, and less use of their knowledge... comparatively.

I believe the service industry is also much more capable than most of Canada's. Technology, such as biotechnology, is a big thing there and thay industry could be built upon as well.

I have heard this all before.... don't hold your breath.

[Yorkness]

You sound like a politician. Ontario is a diversified Province. Industry is a key part of that diversification. If you lose it you become less diversified. Ontario will not be at the forefront of the Canadian economy anymore then it currently is. It has great potential to slip and continue to slide into a non skilled economy with well trained and educated workforce.

Nothing like insulting people. It is the unskilled labour force which goes to Alberta and returns to Ontario. Regardless of the higher wages for "unskilled" general labour and service sector work, the cost of living is beyond the means of many of those people to stay in Alberta.

However, the Skilledworkforces is in such demand that Ontario has been bleeding skilled labour to Alberta, where the job postings are still steady.

Sorry bub, but every skilled trade I could put on a train, bus or Plane and fly out to Alberta in a heartbeat, and Ontario is the poorer for it.

Every person who leaves their non transferable, non credential trade and gets retrained by Ontario, faces few jobs and piss poor pay, but that ticket is a ticket to freedom out west, where they make far more then they ever made in Ontario.

On top of that Ontarios private sector is only 6% Unionized, where as in Alberta has a high private sector unionized rate just over 30%.

Some believe they died and went to heaven. Many of those from Auto/Farm/ etc find the work easy, but the drug use and alcohol in Alberta to be a very dangerous situation.

How has it worked so far? Do you have any idea how much technological equipment, intellectual property, etc is being sucked out of this economy for the last 4 years?

All these plans of "education and technology" come from bozos that have never been involved in manufacturing and think people in manufacturing operations are a bunch of dummies. It is those same group of people who used to piss me off calling me farmer, and farm boy, because "farmers were stupid, or uneducated".

Farming is industrial in nature, and thus it is understandable why manufacturers set up in farming communities.

There are many farms with full machineshops in their barns.... of course the work is drying up for them as the industries leave.

Yes there is a University in Windsor, Hamilton, Thunderbay, etc. training people is only half the equation. The employment opportunities must exist. There are also community colleges and private training and college facilities but since you didn't mention them, they probably don't count in your mind.

I am University Educated, and I didn't enter a manufacturing field until in my late 30s. I was on the other side, service sector, business and marketing. So, I believed in many of the myths.

If you want to have fun, the meat grinder of JIT production, shipping and 5S, 6 Sigma and Kaizen is a treat for anyone to see management by stress and stressed out management. Its all fun.

But talking to so many managers in new fields, they are happy with the slower quieter pace with far less responsibility, and less use of their knowledge... comparatively.

I have heard this all before.... don't hold your breath.

Enlightening post. I can hardly say I know much about industry and economics and I guess I am just pawing desperately at any of the prestige my beloved province has left.

[Topaz]

Are you on crack? Free trade has done very well for Canada. Being as we have a positive trade balance, Free trade is in our best interests. If Canada didn't pay its auto workers 80 bucks an hour and made cars people want, then the auto sector wouldn't be in the mess that its in. The auto sector was in trouble before the recession, the recession just sped the process up. What's wrong with investing in third world countries? The richer they get, the more of our products they buy.

Hey Blue, you tell me ONE CAW worker that makes $80 hrly today straight hours not overtime?? A small % are making 12.50 -maybe 14.00 and I'm sure the majority of them will follow suit after this auto crisis and then you'll start complaining about the teachers that make 90,000 yrly for 10 months of work. The majority of auto workers are making 25-35 hrly wage. The person that fixed by washing machine charges $50 hrly, the plummer does too, to get my car fixed cost 80-90 hrly rate. Have you bought a Third World product? A GM car made in Mexico started to fall aprt within two years, a Woods freezer, which normally are good freezers, doesn't work right,Sears had to come out 3x to fix it and guess what it still isn't working right, it was made in Mexico. My keyboard to my computer made in a southern asian country has a short in, the computer , the processor, the monitor all comes from Third world countries. Canada has better quality in making our products, and those people who make those products deserve that pay!

[madmax]

Hey Blue, you tell me ONE CAW worker that makes $80 hrly today straight hours not overtime?? A small % are making 12.50 -maybe 14.00 and I'm sure the majority of them will follow suit after this auto crisis and then you'll start complaining about the teachers that make 90,000 yrly for 10 months of work. The majority of auto workers are making 25-35 hrly wage.

The majority of those employed in the auto industry do not make $25 to $35 per hour. The majority of those in final assembly do make this kind of money, including unionized and not unionized and contract. Those who start at Ford make $21.

I expect these wages to continue to have downward pressure, but it will not change the end result.

[blueblood]

Hey Blue, you tell me ONE CAW worker that makes $80 hrly today straight hours not overtime?? A small % are making 12.50 -maybe 14.00 and I'm sure the majority of them will follow suit after this auto crisis and then you'll start complaining about the teachers that make 90,000 yrly for 10 months of work. The majority of auto workers are making 25-35 hrly wage. The person that fixed by washing machine charges $50 hrly, the plummer does too, to get my car fixed cost 80-90 hrly rate. Have you bought a Third World product? A GM car made in Mexico started to fall aprt within two years, a Woods freezer, which normally are good freezers, doesn't work right,Sears had to come out 3x to fix it and guess what it still isn't working right, it was made in Mexico. My keyboard to my computer made in a southern asian country has a short in, the computer , the processor, the monitor all comes from Third world countries. Canada has better quality in making our products, and those people who make those products deserve that pay!

The Globe and Mail

When its all said in done, benefits and all, they get 80 bucks an hour. This is from the Globe and Mail.

Teachers in MB if they have their University Ed. maxed out make about 70K.

How about you provide a link that shows they make 25-35 bucks an hour. It's simple just click on the icon to the right of the smiley face and follow the prompts.

I have bought Canadian Union made farm machinery and it's all junk, that is why the company ran into huge trouble and got bought out by Fiat. The Universal Joints on my GMC truck do not have grease fittings, which is very very stupid because I have to replace them every so often. Those U joints made from Canadian Magna. Canada makes garbage and likes to rip off consumers, and now are paying for it.

All of my stuff made in third world countries works better than the stuff they made in Canada, those workers in the third world countries are happy to have jobs, and are more inspired to do a better job, whereas unionized Ontario employees think consumers should subsidize their laziness.

[blueblood]

In many circumstances yes, in many circumstances no. It is a mixed bag. Canada can look great on paper.... I look at the local economy. Free Trade is an agreement that isn't "free trade". It could simply called a "trade agreement" but the word "free" is a beautiful marketing ploy. We have had many trade agreements in the past. Some on a more individual basis then the broad outline of the FTA and NAFTA. Often on these one on one agreements Canada did very well and could exercise its leverage and independance and its sovereignty. The reverse was also true of our trading partner.

Free trade means no tariffs, not the Americans are forced to buy our stuff. Same goes for us buying the american stuff.

I don't recall a time when Canada didn't have a positive trade balance. But what is clear, with the glory of NAFTA and the NAFTA preachers we have lost our #1 trading partner status to the US to be replaced by CHINA who has no such agreement.

Does it cost us anything not to have #1 trade status other than pride.

It certainly would be in the situation it is in. Autoworkers paid far less in other countries are victim to the same set of circumstances and the economic forces and the same auto corporations.

Yet Toyota and Honda aren't ringing the bankruptcy alarm

Your Mexican and Korean vehicles cost the same as the Japanese vehicles. North American vehicles made offshore and in Mexico cost the same as ones made here. VWs made around the globe cost the same here. Infact, many vehicles made here, sell for less in the US then we can purchase them here, and that is dictated by the manufacturers, not the government.

Last time I went into a salesroom, the North American vehicles were a king's ransom and the Japanese cars were more affordable and reliable

The only thing an $80 wage has an effect upon, is that it is one of many factors an autogiant looks upon when choosing to build a new plant or relocate.

If ocean freight and transport cost less than 80 dollar employees, guess where the plant is going

As for making cars or vehicles people want, perhaps you are missing something. All Auto manufacturers overproduced, and Toyota is sitting with at least a 4 month inventory. Unusual for a company that never makes more then it sells.

Who wants a truck or an SUV other than farmers in this day and age, the fad is done and the big three missed the boat, TS.

GM made a fortune on its SUV and Large Trucks. Their cars sell for less then the Japanese and Koreans. the Japanese choose to enter the large truck market, dropping their own small trucks. GM maintained its small truck line as did Chrysler/Dodge.

Toyota still makes the Tacoma as far as I recall, and Honda came out with the Ridgeline, those are small trucks

Don't mistake the fact that GM was relocating its Oshawa truck plant for closing truck manufacturing completely. Their intent was to use the new Mexican facility in order to avoid the 80$ wage your worry so much about, and because of the lower currency, and energy costs. ALso Mexico was about to overtake Canada as the number 1 supplier of Autos to the US. (Free trade again:)

So Mexicans are supposed to be beggars while Unionized Ontarians screw customers over? Send production to Mexico, the richer they get, the better it is for everybody.

Regardless of Canadian operations being more productive, award winning and profitable, these decisions are made at boardroom tables with thoughts decades into the future.

Not profitable enough, Mexicans are getting jobs! I should hope the Big 3 got more productive, the Unions putting the screws to robotics in factories is nonsense and a big problem why the Big 3 made junk for so many years.

In the midst of this relocation, came the high energy costs and fuel shot up. Many people attributed the truck operation to fuel costs, but that is not the case. That would be a problem of the future for the GM facility in Mexico, but the technology paid for here (hybrid truck) had already been developed and would be built in Mexico if necessary.

Woohoo, dirt cheap 26 mpg V8s with 315 hp for me!

In the meantime, Nissan couldn't build a truck for the life of them, and farmed it out to Chrysler.

As for the dire straits of Auto, Chrysler is owned by a company with enough financial resources to buy it 10 times over.

You are right, and our products are natural resources to aid in their industrial production to sell goods to us. We don't have access to those 3rd world markets, and while Japan would be a nice coup, I would be hard pressed to know just what product we are going to sell to China that we don't already have a market for there?

Exactly, the better China and India are doing financially, the better off we do. The Americans pay them to cheaply manufacture stuff, and then the Chinese pay us for resources.

Edited January 9, 2009 by blueblood

[madmax]

The Globe and Mail

When its all said in done, benefits and all, they get 80 bucks an hour. This is from the Globe and Mail.

How about you provide a link that shows they make 25-35 bucks an hour.

Will a paystub do?

There is only one way to get those $70 and $80 wage figures and that is to include the wages and benefits of all the employees and former employees collecting pensions and benefits, and dividing that figure between the standing workforce. Essentially the more you cut current employees and increase productivity with technological change or implementing more efficient production practices, you could skew those wages even higher. A very effective use of technological downsizing and number manipulation.

It is an old trick that has been in use for sometime and now is accepted as fact. The practice started in the US, and was the means to try to get concessions from UAW on pensions and benefits and later wages.

THe wages of an autoworker at a North American operation are in step with Toyota and Honda, and the same is true stateside. Some in the states claim that the Japanese benefits are superior.

There are a gabilllion studies on Autowages, as it seems every University, Car Mag, Government, Consulting firm, and AutoMakers seemed to need one that says the same thing every 3rd month .

In the meantime, somepeople foolishly believe that they make the cars, here, which is only partially true. We assemble them, but the parts come from everywhere, and often Toyota has more NA content then the big three.

From another thread in another auto forum

Even in parts supplying companies there are major differences in wage payments thats because of the 3 tiers. Also how strong the union is at any given plant.....there is also seniority and which departments/area the job is being performed that take into account of the wages.

There are many automotive parts supplying plants that only pay between $10-$15/hour....others $15-$20 and some between $20-$25.

Ofcourse within the company there are many other factors that determine specific wage amounts but the above numbers are average.

It takes all the parts suppliers to build a car. It is all auto.

[416wanting506]

I don't buy that NAFTA has been good for ON or Canada even. Perhaps on the raw material front its been useful but even there we've constantly had to fight the US. Lumber, potatoes, etc?

Sure we're making cars for the US but americans were already buying cars from us. Lets not forget Canada had a long standing trade relationship with the US prior to NAFTA. The difference was we didn't have one with Mexico or other 3rd world nations that could easily and unfairly steal our jobs.

I'm very concerned about Ontario. I don't necessarily side with the ontario or toronto governments however with their whining that Ottawa needs to subsidise them more. I do think both Toronto and Ontario have been incredibly irresponsible with their money. Look at our municipal and provincial debt and the money we have to spend to service it. Absurd!

Ontario needs to wake up and fix the situation quickly but there seems to be very little public interest. Highways need tolls - major US highways do and society hasn't collapsed. User fees for hospitals. Runny nose? Wait till monday to go to your family doctor or pay out the @ss imo. Stop abusing a priviledge. Jack the electricity prices. I don't care if you need to do 18 laundry washes a day, pay for it - the tax payer shouldn't be. Ontario has so much to offer anyone that chooses to call it home and I doubt that will change.

Why is that someone can come to ON and make it rich, find a great job, get a great education, or see the country's best art, yet our politicians would have us believe we live in a bankrupt region. That is not the case and I don't believe it will be in my lifetime. The problem is irresponsible politicians and a public with entitlement issues. Fix those and Ontario will be the great place it always has been.

[madmax]

Hey Blueblood.. I would like to repsond to this post, but it is to tricky because MLW won't allow me to quote it, because of the format.

Jan 9 2009, 02:56 PM Post #17

If you could do me a favour... edit it, remove the quote tags, leave in your bolded comments, and I will sort it out and we can carry on....

thanks

madmax

[guyser]

Works both ways.

I don't buy that NAFTA has been good for ON or Canada even. Perhaps on the raw material front its been useful but even there we've constantly had to fight the US. Lumber, potatoes, etc?

see apples from NY state.

[Shakeyhands]

well the axe fell at IBM yesterday, and I got clobbered. We lost at least 250-300 if not more in the first wave of cuts, with two more waves to come.

Now the good news is that I have two interviews line up already less than 24 hours later. neither of which did i have to lift a finger to get. Maybe things are just in shuffle mode?

[guyser]

well the axe fell at IBM yesterday, and I got clobbered. We lost at least 250-300 if not more in the first wave of cuts, with two more waves to come.

Now the good news is that I have two interviews line up already less than 24 hours later. neither of which did i have to lift a finger to get. Maybe things are just in shuffle mode?

Best of luck to you.

One door closed, perhaps a slew fo doors will open.

[madmax]

well the axe fell at IBM yesterday, and I got clobbered. We lost at least 250-300 if not more in the first wave of cuts, with two more waves to come.

No surprises here....

Now the good news is that I have two interviews line up already less than 24 hours later. neither of which did i have to lift a finger to get. Maybe things are just in shuffle mode?

Always good to have connections and some good luck.

Hope it works out for you.