charter.rights Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Who says I have no right? Because my skin is white? My great, great, grannie told me that we once owned that land. That's good enough for the natives so it's good enough for me, too.The solution to this problem is fairly obvious. We need to find a premier with a spine. That's clearly not Dilton Mcdoily. Then fire Fantino and order the police to enforce the law. Arrest any natives who don't like it. Your simplicity in thinking is leading you astray. You have no right because as Canadians we have no property rights. If you have an aboriginal claim then it must be collective, not individual. The SCoC did not rule that individuals must be consulted. It said that First nations must be. Keep your violent tendencies to yourself. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Argus Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Nobody beat anyone up. Stop with the simplistic inference. They simply locked the gate and prevented anyone from moving on or off the site. That's how easy and non-violent occupation protests are. If I forceably stop you from entering your own land... get that word "force", force is a word which denotes violence, then I am clearly not "non violent". You don't 'prevent' someone from entering their own property by frowning and saying "please". You do it only by violence and threats of violence. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Your simplicity in thinking is leading you astray. You have no right because as Canadians we have no property rights. I think you're mistaken. I think if I buy land then I own it. It says so in the law. If you have an aboriginal claim then it must be collective, not individual. But Canadians have no property rights. Oh right, you're saying natives aren't Canadians. But I do hope that doesn't mean they can't continue to collect welfare? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
madmax Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Everybody, Stop the baiting and insults. Just discuss the topic without making any personal attacks. Ch. A. The only real way one is able to participate in this discussion is to be affected by the turmoil of events. The Failure of our Federal Government.... Dianne Finley who could be the largest MIA in Caledonia signed a petition to blame the OPP for doing a bad job of handling the Caledonia land claim. She seems to overlook the fact that no Indian Affairs Minister has the courage to set foot in Caledonia, let alone meet with a delegation at Six Nations. While I understand you need to control this forum, I can assure you that these discussions are light, compared to the real events, and the real levels of Racism, and the real levels of abandonment that the People of Caledonia and Six nations feel regarding the Provincial and Federal Governments. It is easier to attack each other while the government watches from afar, then it is to get government to have action at the table. Expect no changes anytime soon. Considering the levels of attacks on other forums and websites, MLW is still the most moderate forum, where something remotely resembling a discussion can take place. The Irony being, the MP and MPPs go out of their way to avoid discussions, along with the Ministers responsible for handling the mess. Quote
Argus Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 The only real way one is able to participate in this discussion is to be affected by the turmoil of events. The Failure of our Federal Government.... This particular affair seems to belong to the Ontario government, talking about failure.... how about faillure to uphold the law. Dianne Finley who could be the largest MIA in Caledonia signed a petition to blame the OPP for doing a bad job of handling the Caledonia land claim. The OPP have done an excremental job, a disgraceful job in Caledonia. But I don't blame the institution or the constables involved. I blame McGuinty, and Fantino - who is nothing but a yes-man. She seems to overlook the fact that no Indian Affairs Minister has the courage to set foot in Caledonia, let alone meet with a delegation at Six Nations. It's Ontario's problem. Let them deal with it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
charter.rights Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 I think you're mistaken. I think if I buy land then I own it. It says so in the law.But Canadians have no property rights. Oh right, you're saying natives aren't Canadians. But I do hope that doesn't mean they can't continue to collect welfare? Six Nations and other Mohawk Territories are not Canadian. They are sovereign nations allied with Canada. Some treaty First Nations do consider themselves Canadian. However the very existence and on-going treaty relationship suggests that they are sovereign nations, since one nation cannot treaty with itself. Native people don't collect welfare from the Canadian government. They receive treaty payment or transfers that are subject to our fiduciary responsibility. If a native is one social assistance then it is the Band that supports them, not our government. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Six Nations and other Mohawk Territories are not Canadian. They are sovereign nations allied with Canada. That would be incorrect. Six Nations is a group of Indians that were compensated for their loss of land by being granted land by the Crown. This land was purchased and allotted to Six Nations at the discretion of the British, and Six Nations given ownership rights in accordance with English property law of the period. That means that they had the right to dispose of their property as could any other land owner, and that is what they largely chose to do with their Haldimand Tract. Some treaty First Nations do consider themselves Canadian. However the very existence and on-going treaty relationship suggests that they are sovereign nations, since one nation cannot treaty with itself. A sovereign nation is one that is capable of maintaining their independence in terms of government and economy, and that is the case with none of the so-called First Nations in Canada. Native people don't collect welfare from the Canadian government. They receive treaty payment or transfers that are subject to our fiduciary responsibility. If a native is one social assistance then it is the Band that supports them, not our government. Members of "sovereign nations" are not subject to the fiduciary care of other sovereign nations. However you want to twist it, Natives receive a disproportionate amount of assistance from CANADIAN taxpayers. Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 It's Ontario's problem. Let them deal with it. It's not a provincial issue. Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
madmax Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 This particular affair seems to belong to the Ontario government, This particular affair belongs to the Federal Government. Quote
Argus Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 It's not a provincial issue. Law enforcement is not a provincial issue? That's something of a surprise to me. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
noahbody Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Six Nations and other Mohawk Territories are not Canadian. They are sovereign nations allied with Canada. The choice to remain sovereign is why they were never granted the land fee simple. Quote
Wild Bill Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Law enforcement is not a provincial issue? That's something of a surprise to me. Well, that's what makes it such a messy situation, oh many-eyed one! Law enforcement IS a provincial issue! It was the OPP's failure to handle the initial protest that allowed the situation to escalate so badly. However, the underlying land claims disputes are FEDERAL issues! Ontario has no legal power or authority to settle them. If they are not resolved then more protests are inevitable. Only the Feds have the power to deal with that. This is the perfect situation for politicians at both levels of government. They can hide while pointing their finger at the OTHER level of government! Meanwhile of course, the citizens of Caledonia are ignored. Particularly by Fantino. He equates keeping the peace with justice. That is totally wrong. In order to keep the peace he has chosen to sacrifice the rights of the entire town! A pyrhic victory indeed but not for Fantino. He's got hopes of becoming a politician someday and his approach pleases McGuinty greatly. It seems Fantino's definition of justice is similar to the old Ayn Rand definition of 'society' as in 'the good of society', where 'society' is defined as 'everybody in general and nobody in particular, except it's never, ever YOU specifically!' Dianne Finley has hidden so well that she has become a joke. She took a hit last election but was saved by the fact that the Liberals sent a real lame-ass candidate to oppose her. If they had ran Bob Speller, the previous Liberal incumbent, she might well have been defeated. Speller was very well respected and lost only due to the anti-Liberal wave over Adscam. Perhaps the Liberals didn't want to win! It would have meant their MP having to take a stand, which few politicians ever really want to do. The sad thing is that this problem is going to have ramifications for generations, not just for natives but for the entire town of Caledonia and many people surrounding. The OPP have clearly shown that individuals WILL NOT be protected under the law if it is politically inexpedient! Perhaps the most sacred trust in a law and order society has been broken. The very basis of such a society is the 'consent to be governed', where a citizen gives up his right to take the law into his own hands because he trusts his society to a better job of enforcing the law with its greater resources. If his society refuses to enforce the law then he is thrust back into the law of the jungle. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Law enforcement is not a provincial issue? That's something of a surprise to me. I didn't know that the "Indian Affairs Minister" was a federal police officer... Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
madmax Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Law enforcement is not a provincial issue? That's something of a surprise to me. The Federal Government is missing in action. It is the only government with the power to resolve the legitimacy of the SIx Nations land claims. No amount of policing is going to change historical facts or the Constitution. The Federal Government is quite content to ignore the people of Caledonia, and Six Nations. Chuck Strahl and Dianne Finley have hidden from the people of Caledonia. The fact that an independent could grab 4,000 votes almost exclusively in Caledonia, demonstrates the failure of the Federal MP and Indian Affairs Minister. Quote
tango Posted January 20, 2009 Report Posted January 20, 2009 The choice to remain sovereign is why they were never granted the land fee simple. You are at least correct about them being sovereign! Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 21, 2009 Report Posted January 21, 2009 You are at least correct about them being sovereign! Funnily enough, from everything that I've read, had the government that you people hate so much not stepped in, the correct status of Six Nations would be "extinct". So maybe the correct term should "ingrates," and not "sovereign"... Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
Argus Posted January 21, 2009 Report Posted January 21, 2009 Well, that's what makes it such a messy situation, oh many-eyed one! Law enforcement IS a provincial issue! It was the OPP's failure to handle the initial protest that allowed the situation to escalate so badly. However, the underlying land claims disputes are FEDERAL issues! Ontario has no legal power or authority to settle them. If they are not resolved then more protests are inevitable. Only the Feds have the power to deal with that. Suppose they deal with it by saying "We've looked at it, and uhm, you have no claim." You think that'll solve things? Not a chance, not a hope, not a prayer. What you really mean is the federal government should acknowledge the native claims - whatever they happen to be, regardless of what evidence they have to support them, and give the natives whatever they want, or at least, buy them off. As I understand it, native claims in this area are tenuous, and have not convinced the courts. So they've decided that if they use force, that will get them what they want. Particularly by Fantino. He equates keeping the peace with justice. That is totally wrong. In order to keep the peace he has chosen to sacrifice the rights of the entire town! A pyrhic victory indeed but not for Fantino. He's got hopes of becoming a politician someday and his approach pleases McGuinty greatly.It seems Fantino's definition of justice is similar to the old Ayn Rand definition of 'society' as in 'the good of society', where 'society' is defined as 'everybody in general and nobody in particular, except it's never, ever YOU specifically!' I don't know where you get the idea Fantino has any say in this. Fantino has to get permission from McGuinty's office before he uses the bathroom. The OPP inaction in Caledonia is due to orders from the premier's office. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 21, 2009 Report Posted January 21, 2009 The Federal Government is missing in action. It is the only government with the power to resolve the legitimacy of the SIx Nations land claims. No amount of policing is going to change historical facts or the Constitution. By "resolve the legitimacy" you mean "give them what they want" right? Because if they "resolve the legitimacy" by saying "These claims have no legitimacy" it will change absolutely nothing. This is a policing issue. The OPP need to go in and clear the way, and arrest anyone who interferes. It really is that simple. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 21, 2009 Report Posted January 21, 2009 Actually, the more that I read about this issue--the actual contemporary documents, the more convinced I am that this is neither a federal or provincial issue, rather has its origins in internal power struggles within Six Nations, ie. the fact that JOSEPH BRANT went around selling land. So if anyone is really to blame, it is him. Also, if you read other contemporary accounts of Six Nations, you start to get the sense that they felt themselves to be superior to all of their neighbouring tribes/nations, and that they were perpetually being trouble makers. Six Nations during the wars prior to the settlement of Upper Canada were extracting (some things never change...) HUGE amounts of tribute from the British in return for their "loyalty". So this who Caledonia dispute is a game that the've played before, but since the education system doesn't teach much history and when it does in a very sanitized and pc manner, well... Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
Wild Bill Posted January 21, 2009 Report Posted January 21, 2009 Suppose they deal with it by saying "We've looked at it, and uhm, you have no claim."You think that'll solve things? Not a chance, not a hope, not a prayer. What you really mean is the federal government should acknowledge the native claims - whatever they happen to be, regardless of what evidence they have to support them, and give the natives whatever they want, or at least, buy them off. As I understand it, native claims in this area are tenuous, and have not convinced the courts. So they've decided that if they use force, that will get them what they want. I don't know where you get the idea Fantino has any say in this. Fantino has to get permission from McGuinty's office before he uses the bathroom. The OPP inaction in Caledonia is due to orders from the premier's office. "Give the natives whatever they want"? Ah, no! That's hardly my position. Don't put words in my mouth. I gave up supporting Six Nations for their land claims when they resorted to terrorist tactics against the townsfolk. That being said, the land claims there haven't gotten to the courts! They've been pending for a hundred years! Federal Indian Affairs makes molasses look like warp speed! Because of their inaction they have now amassed such a huge backlog of claims across the country that it could take another 100 years to sort them out, even if the courts DID start to move! The problem is that the feds have refused to get involved and simply dodged the issue. Chuck Strahl has the entire country's worth of land claims on his slate and it would appear that Caledonia is not considered important enough to his ministry to get bumped up the list. There is also the obvious position implied in your very post that it's McGuinty's problem so let Dalton squirm! The problem there is that such a strategy is incredibly naive and short sighted for a politician to take! The people of Caledonia are not going to blame only Mcguinty. They also blame the feds! This affects their vote and that of any others in Ontario who are following the situation. It's like the old traffic adage: "You were right. Dead right!" If the feds seriously negotiated and then told the natives to get stuffed that might work in putting the ball back in McGuinty's court. So far the feds have merely dinked around. Unfortunately, this has let Dalton make great strides in winning the propaganga war, making claims that its the federal inaction that is solely responsible for the situation continuing on and on and on. A surprising number of people believe him! The feds inaction does nothing to counteract this. As for Fantino, I agree he's a toady. Still, he's a toady with a big stick! Dalton may be able to stall any inquiry for quite some time but if I were Fantino I would be worried about a change of government next election. That would remove his protection. This still doesn't change the situation for the townsfolk of Caledonia. They have been shown that NO level of government will protect them! All they get is fingerpointing and passing the buck. Somehow, I don't think that your words would be of any comfort to them. They don't want simple blame! They're looking for someone in some level of government to be their champion! Maybe Dalton is not their champion, but it's not Harper either! I wouldn't want to be a Tory party funding canvasser in that town. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 22, 2009 Report Posted January 22, 2009 That being said, the land claims there haven't gotten to the courts! They've been pending for a hundred years! Federal Indian Affairs makes molasses look like warp speed! Because of their inaction they have now amassed such a huge backlog of claims across the country that it could take another 100 years to sort them out, even if the courts DID start to move! The problem for SN started with Joe Brant selling off land that he shouldn't have, the government eventually stopped this from happening, and in doing so saved SN. The problem is that the feds have refused to get involved and simply dodged the issue. Chuck Strahl has the entire country's worth of land claims on his slate and it would appear that Caledonia is not considered important enough to his ministry to get bumped up the list. There is also the obvious position implied in your very post that it's McGuinty's problem so let Dalton squirm! Why should they get involved when the issue can't be resolved except by giving into SN's fabricated claims? SN created this mess, and if the Federal government caves in, then everybody will start clamouring for the same. A couple of years ago there was a now-extinct band claiming ownership of much of southern BC; what makes an extinct band of Indians reappear? The smell of money... Quote Some of us on here appreciate a view OTHER than the standard conservative crap. Keep up the good work and heck, they have not banned me yet so you are safe Cheers! Drea
tango Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 Actually, the more that I read about this issue--the actual contemporary documents, the more convinced I am that this is neither a federal or provincial issue, rather has its origins in internal power struggles within Six Nations, ie. the fact that JOSEPH BRANT went around selling land. So if anyone is really to blame, it is him. The onus to ensure land transactions were proper rested with 'the Crown'. It was the Crown's law that they must be ratified by the Indigenous community. Your signature ... If gays are Nazis ... WHO ARE THEY KILLING? What an asinine, offensive thing to say. Reported. Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
Guest icbones Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009...132046-sun.html The above link is to a story about an MP who signed a petition re Fantino. Hopefully super cop will get the boot minus the traditional golden handshake. Quote
madmax Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 This is the perfect situation for politicians at both levels of government. They can hide while pointing their finger at the OTHER level of government! And that is EXACTLY what they do, and they know full well they are doing it. There isn't even an attempt to pretend there is some sort of cooperation, because, then something would have to go forward, and it is my belief that the governments are quite content with the situation as it is. Meanwhile of course, the citizens of Caledonia are ignored. You are quite right. The people of Caledonia are being ignored. They are also being used as Pawns by all sides involved in the negotiation process. Quote
madmax Posted January 24, 2009 Report Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) This is a policing issue. The OPP need to go in and clear the way, and arrest anyone who interferes. It really is that simple. You sound like a public sector employee. Edited January 24, 2009 by madmax Quote
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