Belief in God - Dawkins Spectrum of Probabilities

[Smallc]

Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

3 of the 8 beatitudes. My favorite part of the bible.

[Mr.Canada]

Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

3 of the 8 beatitudes. My favorite part of the bible.

Why are you posting these Smallc?

[Smallc]

Why are you posting these Smallc?

Because they show the good side of Christianity. The forgiving, tolerant one. The one you don't seem to recognize.

[LesterDC]

Jesus basically says believe in me or suffer for all time in hell. Yeah sounds like a socialist.

Mark 10:21 — “Jesus looked at him and loved him. ‘One thing you lack,’ he said. ‘Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’ ”

Give to everyone who asks of you, and from him, who takes away your goods, do not ask them again! Luke 6:30

Luke 6:24 — “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.”

Ecclesiastes 5:12 — “The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether he eats little or much, but the abundance of a rich man permits him no sleep.”

Acts 20:35 — The Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.

When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:9-10

He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor. Proverbs 14:21

There are plenty of these verses... Don't be rich, sharing is caring..

Left enough for you?

[Mr.Canada]

Because they show the good side of Christianity. The forgiving, tolerant one. The one you don't seem to recognize.

Of coarse I recognize it. I've said it many times that Christian groups give more than every other group combined. It doesn't make for good arguments though does it? That's why here at MLW I stick to the polarizing issues. It's just more exciting.

I donate my time to help those less fortunate then myself. I have little sympathy for men who are just lazy but I have a lot of compassion for kids who are in that position as they have no choice.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[LesterDC]

Jesus basically says believe in me or suffer for all time in hell.

Where did he say that?

As much as I don't like it, that is what he said. Jesus is the way and only through him could somebody find eternal life in heaven..

[Smallc]

Jesus is the way and only through him could somebody find eternal life in heaven..

And what does that mean?

Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And so what does this mean then?

Edited January 2, 2009 by Smallc

[LesterDC]

And what does that mean?

If you don't believe in Jesus you don't get to go to heaven. According to Christianity, there are only two ways: heaven and hell

And so what does this mean then?

It is talking about humility, one of the main characteristics of a Christian. When you because a Christian, nobody is expecting you to become a perfect being. According to Christianity, we are all inherently sinful and as long as we are human beings we will remain so. Blessed are those who accept their imperfections, repent and seek Jesus

[Smallc]

Exactly why I give so little consideration to the bible.

[LesterDC]

Exactly why I give so little consideration to the bible.

Eternal damnation for a lifetime of sin is quite silly to me.. Does 50 or so years of sinning merit an eternity in hell?

So basically, we were brought into existence against our own will. More importantly, we were brought into a world where it is our very nature to act in ways which condemn us to hell.

Is this some kind of game?

Oh yeah, did the First Nations people ever get a chance?

[Smallc]

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

[Mr.Canada]

Eternal damnation for a lifetime of sin is quite silly to me.. Does 50 or so years of sinning merit an eternity in hell?

So basically, we were brought into existence against our own will. More importantly, we were brought into a world where it is our very nature to act in ways which condemn us to hell.

Is this some kind of game?

Oh yeah, did the First Nations people ever get a chance?

Sounds fair to me. Jesus dies for our sins and all he asks for our obedience. It's a small price to pay in order to have eternal life in heaven.

[LesterDC]

Sounds fair to me. Jesus dies for our sins and all he asks for our obedience. It's a small price to pay in order to have eternal life in heaven.

A couple of things.. Why are we in this situation? Did we choose to be born? According to scripture, mankind is damned because of Adam and Eve; am I somehow directly connected to the first sin ever committed? Now we are born into the human race, which has already been damned, so because I was born, I am damned by my human nature. Sounds like collective punishment to me..

Secondly, what makes you think that I would want to live forever? Forever should not be underestimated..

[Mr.Canada]

A couple of things.. Why are we in this situation? Did we choose to be born? According to scripture, mankind is damned because of Adam and Eve; am I somehow directly connected to the first sin ever committed? Now we are born into the human race, which has already been damned, so because I was born, I am damned by my human nature. Sounds like collective punishment to me..

Secondly, what makes you think that I would want to live forever? Forever should not be underestimated..

You were born because it is Gods plan that you were to be born at the time you were. He loves you and wanted you to come into this world embrace Him, spread the message of God and marry and multiply.

[Smallc]

So, even though he loves us, he would still send us to hell?

[LesterDC]

You were born because it is Gods plan that you were to be born at the time you were. He loves you and wanted you to come into this world embrace Him, spread the message of God and marry and multiply.

If it was God's decision to have me born, more the worse. So it was his idea to bring us into a world of damnation..

[LesterDC]

You were born because it is Gods plan that you were to be born at the time you were. He loves you and wanted you to come into this world embrace Him, spread the message of God and marry and multiply.

I also reject the idea that our birth was ultimately masterminded by God.. So where were we before we were born? In heaven? So what did we do to deserve a life on earth?

Edited January 2, 2009 by LesterDC

[Mr.Canada]

I also reject the idea that our birth was ultimately masterminded by God.. So where were we before we were born? In heaven? So what did we do to deserve a life on earth?

That's the choice God gave us all. You seem to have made your choice. You've chosen to be selfish and self absorbed. Enjoy.

[LesterDC]

That's the choice God gave us all. You seem to have made your choice. You've chosen to be selfish and self absorbed. Enjoy.

What choice?! I certainly don't remember being asked to be born into this earth..

Let's cut the ad hominid acts alright? Jeez, no wonder people are so against Christian dogma, anybody who asks a question contrary to conventional beliefs are "selfish and self absorbed". Give me a break..

[Mr.Canada]

What choice?! I certainly don't remember being asked to be born into this earth..

Let's cut the ad hominid acts alright? Jeez, no wonder people are so against Christian dogma, anybody who asks a question contrary to conventional beliefs are "selfish and self absorbed". Give me a break..

You seem to get very angry at someone you don't even know. Who cares what I think. You shouldn't. Your life is so full that you must sit here and wait for me to post so you can reply...wow.

We must all have faith in God so that we may be saved. Traditional family values is the only way we, as a society can come back from the brink of our own destruction. The secular-socialists have pushed us enough, it's time we pushed back and did what is right for Canada. God is watching us, let's make Him proud of us.

[LesterDC]

You seem to get very angry at someone you don't even know. Who cares what I think. You shouldn't. Your life is so full that you must sit here and wait for me to post so you can reply...wow.

I didn't realize that you had a spy camera hooked up on my computer monitor.. Or maybe, you have the ability to peer into my emotions by reading text on a computer screen - did god give you that ability as well? Quite frankly, I really don't give a shit about what you say, most of it is religious dogma anyway. Liberals = red/hell, Conservatives = blue/heaven.

We must all have faith in God so that we may be saved. Traditional family values is the only way we, as a society can come back from the brink of our own destruction. The secular-socialists have pushed us enough, it's time we pushed back and did what is right for Canada. God is watching us, let's make Him proud of us.

Faith faith faith faith, evil secularists, evil socialists.. No need for logic. I have not heard a single argument to my opposition with any substance.

I was posting here for a good discussion and this is all I get.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use"

[WIP]

Mark 10:21 — “Jesus looked at him and loved him. ‘One thing you lack,’ he said. ‘Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’ ”

Give to everyone who asks of you, and from him, who takes away your goods, do not ask them again! Luke 6:30

Luke 6:24 — “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.”

Ecclesiastes 5:12 — “The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether he eats little or much, but the abundance of a rich man permits him no sleep.”

Acts 20:35 — The Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.

When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:9-10

He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor. Proverbs 14:21

There are plenty of these verses... Don't be rich, sharing is caring..

Left enough for you?

Thanks for yet another example that the Bible is the great book of multiple choice. Anybody who wants to support a claim or some point of view can find plenty of supporting bible verses.

[WIP]

Eternal damnation for a lifetime of sin is quite silly to me.. Does 50 or so years of sinning merit an eternity in hell?

So basically, we were brought into existence against our own will. More importantly, we were brought into a world where it is our very nature to act in ways which condemn us to hell.

Is this some kind of game?

Yes, and it's called take Pascal's Wager or burn -- even if you doubt the authenticity of the message. Combine it with "believe in Jesus if you want our free food, and convert or we'll put you to the sword, these are all very effective ways of gaining converts.

Oh yeah, did the First Nations people ever get a chance?

Some Christians claim that the heathen get a second chance at the pearly gates because they didn't hear the gospel, and instead are judged by their works while they are here on Earth -- I guess if you're up on the clouds standing before God, Jesus, St. Peter etc. that would be conclusive evidence -- at least much more than our copied and translated bibles....so why shouldn't the skeptic get the same consideration because of the weak case made for Christian authenticity?

On the other hand, some honest biblical literalists quote Romans 2:12 as evidence that no one gets to heaven without being born again...so if the missionaries didn't get to you in time, you're SOL. Most seem to pass the question away with something like "it's up to God's judgement, he'll know what to do with you in the hereafter." But a skeptic is going to ask why attempts at blackmail should make the case for mythical rewards and punishments after death any more likely to be true.

[LesterDC]

Thanks for yet another example that the Bible is the great book of multiple choice. Anybody who wants to support a claim or some point of view can find plenty of supporting bible verses.

Perhaps, but that wasn't what I was getting at. I am pretty sure that the Bible is holistically a pretty left-winged document

[LesterDC]

so why shouldn't the skeptic get the same consideration because of the weak case made for Christian authenticity?

Good point..

Another thing that strikes me is how underestimate the notion of living forever. I don't even believe that according to Christianity, the dilemma ends when you go up to heaven. I believe in fallen angels, look at what happened to Lucifer for example. He was struck with the dilemma and he was sent to hell. So living for an eternity with this dilemma must be tiresome would it not?