Religious Right in Canada

[WIP]

I'll make things simple:

Say person "A" follows "doctrine A" and person "B" follows "doctrine B". Say I am "A" and you are "B". What you are telling me is that you can bring "doctrine B" into government policy but "doctrine A" is not allowed any place in government policy.

Convenient for person "B" don't you think?

Maybe you need to look up what the term secularism means, because you can't equate secularism with religious doctrines, since in principle, secularism means to neutrality regarding matters of belief, and is also supposed to mean that no special privileges or subsidies should be awarded to religions or religious beliefs -- but we aren't a true secularist nation now, are we?

[MontyBurns]

... because you can't equate secularism with religious doctrines ...

Why not?

[Mr.Canada]

Why not?

I can grasp what you're trying to say but you'd probably have more luck equating the two as belief systems and not religions per se. Just my two cents.

[whowhere]

The Queen is Christian, but there is no established church in Canada. Maybe *you* should read the Constitution.

Maybe you should look at How the European Union approved its constitution. Every Country held a vote to the people. Did that happen in 1982? No that Constitution was imposed on Canadians undemocratically by the Liberal Party, the Supreme Court, and the Queen.

So the fact that we get Christmas off means the government is Christian?

That is not the point. The point is, the holiday exists because of Religion. How About Easter? Is that because of the Easter Bunny?? Easter Christian enough for ya?

There's no established church, thus no need to get rid of the Queen.

What are you talking about? She is the Sovereign of Canada and represented by the Governor General. NOTHING Gets made into law unless the Governor General Signs it. Canada was a colony of Britain. Canada has done nothing to separate itself from Britain, other than scream at the world saying we are an independent separate country.

However, the queen has deferred all legal disputes since the 1970's between the monarchy and her colonies to the International Court of Justice. So if Canada's politically corrupt continue to abuse Canada with their tyranical policies they can be brought before the International Court and held accountable for their actions.

Deny the Queen and the fact she is a Christian Queen all you want. She proclaims herself to be a christian queen. If you say otherwise, you are calling your Queen an effing liar. The United States also sees the queen as Canada's sovereign and owner so what Legal Leg does Canada have to stand on in the World Stage?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...ok/geos/ca.html

Executive branch:

chief of state: Queen ELIZABETH II (since 6 February 1952); represented by Governor General Michaelle JEAN (since 27 September 2005)

The Queen is the Queen of all sorts of people; Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics and so forth (despite the fact that none of these people are even legally allowed to be Queen in the UK).

So now you are saying the Queen is God of all the religions. Legally allowed to be queen?? What are you talking about. To be Royalty you to need to have Royal ancestory and the support of the people.

Face the facts. Canada at its Core is a Christian Country. Whether the people are Christian or not is irrelevant. The political structure of Canada stems from Christianity. I will have to say Canadians for the most part are a bunch of stupid dumb ass tards. Not your fault really because you likely came from tard parents and were educated by the tard school system.

The irony is, Canada is where it is at because of that undemocratic 1982 Constitution. If it were not for that constitution the bureacrats, politicians, and courts would not have had the mechanisms to unravel and wreck Canada to the piece shit Country it is today. Not that Canada was not a piece of shit Country before. Now its just more so.

[M.Dancer]

. What can be said about all the statutory holidays Canada as. They are mostly religious based.

Secular

1. New Years
   
2. Family Day
   
3. Canada Day
   
4. Civic Holiday
   
5. Labour Day
   
6. Boxing Day
   

Religious

1. Good Friday
   
2. Thanksgiving
   
3. Christmas Day
   

Mostly our holidays are secular

[Molly]

Um.... Thanksgiving is secular.

[whowhere]

Secular

1. New Years
   
2. Family Day
   
3. Canada Day
   
4. Civic Holiday
   
5. Labour Day
   
6. Boxing Day
   

Religious

1. Good Friday
   
2. Thanksgiving
   
3. Christmas Day
   

Mostly our holidays are secular

What about victoria day (May 24) Secular?

The fact is Canada is and was a christian Colony. That is fact. France settled Canada as a Christian Colony, Britain captured Canada and continued Canada as Christian Colony. What event changed Canada from Ceasing to be a christian colony?

The 1982 Constitution and Charter?

The irony you people are more christian than you realize. Christians are effing liars and a dishonest lot. So kudos to all you christians in denial for being true form.

[tango]

The previous point is exact on. God has no place in politics. Remember, reason over passion anyday. Most Canadians, except racists, would prefer to keep religious worship to the private individuals rather than enforced by the government. That is the problem with Christian conservatives. John A. MacDonald said something along the line that no decision in government should be made when its most powerful explanation is a religious one. Trudeau even said that religious fundamentalists need a dose of reality because the most advances (in a specific time) man has made was in the last century, and it was also the most "un-religious." Although Paul Martin felt strongly that marriage is between a man and a woman due to his own religion, he knew that one of the government's role is not to promote one religion's rules over another but to advance the rights of individual so as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

I agree. I believe the greatest advances for humankind are made by people who 'think outside the box'. I don't believe that devotion to the tenets of a fundamentalist religion - to sameness and status quo, as I see it - will produce the kind of thinking needed for us to meet the challenges of environmental destruction and economic terrorism by the megacorps.

In fact, this is exactly what I see in Harper - no vision, no creativity, nothing but slavish devotion to trying to drag us backwards to the 1950's, when the rules of 'social acceptability' demanded religious obedience aligned with obedience to the money and power that really run the country. I think that's what Harper's looking for from us ... obedience (!not!). I just don't see that as reasonable anymore. There are too many skeletons (literally) in the closet of organized religions, for one thing. But I think the main issue for me is that the constraints on independent thinking that religion imposes are inconsistent with the demands of leadership in the 21st century.

I don't begrudge anyone their freedom of religion, so long as they respect my freedom from religion. I just don't think they make good leaders. For one thing, I don't think they are up to the task of taking back control of our country from the megacorps. That's a struggle we have to prepare to fight right now, I think. I don't think religion can offer any help, and will most likely be one of the forces we have to fight against.

One major issue: Organized religions will not bite the hand that feeds them their huge tax breaks. They will never fight the status quo, the economic establishment that caters to them in this way to ensure their obedience.

[whowhere]

Talk and confusion about religion is a ploy by the political parties of Canada to distract and conquer you. As long they keep you from voting they will be able to mobilize their forces to get them back into office. Do yourselves a favor and all of you get out and vote the conservative scum out of office the next time round.

What is remarkable is Obama is sworn in using abraham lincoln's bible. An opening prayer to God, a Judeo Christian prayer. Would a Secular Country do that??

You are free to be what you want but that will not change the founding precepts of Canada or the United States. To me secular is just another word for communism. We don't believe in anything so we will do what is in our interests. Those who drum secular are the same ones who look the other way while corporations break laws and abuse people. This cuts to the core why Canada is the way it is. No principles, No Character, no identity, nothing but a puppet waiting for instructions south of the border.

[WIP]

Why not?

Well, there are the minor cultural nods to Christianity that most atheists do not object to, such as official religious holidays, but here in Ontario, what needs to go is public funding of the Catholic Schools. They cheat on the rules that allowed full funding through grade 12 and now that population demographics are changing, there are bizarre situations where public schools in old neighbourhoods have to be closed and the kids bussed to schools other schools, even though a Catholic School is right across the street and won't accept the noncatholic students.

Alternatively, in some of the fast-growing suburbs, especially around Toronto, public schools are overcrowded, while the catholic schools in the area are allowed to refuse admittance. If the Catholic Church was paying the freight for brainwashing future generations of Catholics, it wouldn't be an issue -- but now that other religions and Christian sects are expecting tax funding for their private religious schools, most Ontarians want ONE public education system, and an end to public financing of ALL religious schools.....and a Conservative candidate lost the last provincial election because he misread public opinion on this issue.

[Mr.Canada]

Well, there are the minor cultural nods to Christianity that most atheists do not object to, such as official religious holidays, but here in Ontario, what needs to go is public funding of the Catholic Schools. They cheat on the rules that allowed full funding through grade 12 and now that population demographics are changing, there are bizarre situations where public schools in old neighbourhoods have to be closed and the kids bussed to schools other schools, even though a Catholic School is right across the street and won't accept the noncatholic students.

Alternatively, in some of the fast-growing suburbs, especially around Toronto, public schools are overcrowded, while the catholic schools in the area are allowed to refuse admittance. If the Catholic Church was paying the freight for brainwashing future generations of Catholics, it wouldn't be an issue -- but now that other religions and Christian sects are expecting tax funding for their private religious schools, most Ontarians want ONE public education system, and an end to public financing of ALL religious schools.....and a Conservative candidate lost the last provincial election because he misread public opinion on this issue.

Now, now be fair. Most Ontarians support school funding as it is now. With two school boards being publicly funded. There is only restrictions to primary Catholic school, only Catholics with at least one Catholic parent may attend grades K-8. You have to produce your baptismal. Catholic secondary school is different, anyone may enroll as long as they agree to respect the traditions of the RCC and attend mass as required. Many Muslim students attend Catholic S.S. as their parents prefer the teaching to the secular public system much of the time. Plus the Catholic system is superior to the public system in many ways.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[M.Dancer]

What about victoria day (May 24) Secular?

The fact is Canada is and was a christian Colony. That is fact. France settled Canada as a Christian Colony, Britain captured Canada and continued Canada as Christian Colony. What event changed Canada from Ceasing to be a christian colony?

The 1982 Constitution and Charter?

The irony you people are more christian than you realize. Christians are effing liars and a dishonest lot. So kudos to all you christians in denial for being true form.

Opps for Victoria Day.

Canada has never been a Christian Colony....only a British one

What event changed Canada from Ceasing to be a christian colony?

Around the time that non christains obtained suffrage. Fact is Christianity has no legal standing and I doubt it has ever had any in Canada. Thank Dog

[M.Dancer]

Um.... Thanksgiving is secular.

Ummm no.

Who pray tell do you give thanks to?

Its name in French is much clearer.

[tango]

You are free to be what you want but that will not change the founding precepts of Canada or the United States. To me secular is just another word for communism. We don't believe in anything so we will do what is in our interests. Those who drum secular are the same ones who look the other way while corporations break laws and abuse people. This cuts to the core why Canada is the way it is. No principles, No Character, no identity, nothing but a puppet waiting for instructions south of the border.

Oh balls!

Secular people like myself are not without morals, ethics, honour and integrity. In fact, we are much clearer about those things than people who give their first allegiance to a church. We don't depend on the mind control of a church to tell us how to think or behave.

History is full of violence and oppression and corruption in the name of a church or religion. The founding of this country is a good example of that, founded on religious persecution of Indigenous Peoples ... genocide ... and still in many places in the world.

For their part, Rwanda's Catholic leaders admit that many of their number, including some priests, likely were accomplices in the genocide, and that many more failed to speak out.

Capitalism is heavily supported by religions, and is the 'army' used to keep people down, pacify them, paralyse them with guilt, keep them from knowing how the megacorps are running our governments and stealing our future.

You are very confused ... we are communists who support corrupt capitalism?

You clearly don't know what communism is, beyond the 'bogey man' you've been taught it is. That's the danger of religion: It's mind control used to sustain corporate control, by feeding people lies, scaring them with the 'communist' bogey man.

GMAFB!

I believe in market economies, so I am not a communist. However, I am vehemently opposed to corporate control and manipulation of populations which often uses the church as a tool to protect the status quo.

THINK FOR YOURSELF FFS!! Don't just adopt the prejudices of a church. They are designed to keep you down, keep you in you place as a peon, keep you from discovering how many ways they are ripping us off and feeding our money to the wealthy (who in turn are generous with the church.)

[Mr.Canada]

Tango. Religious Tory MP's are the ones responsible for sustaining corporate control? Don't make me laugh. It's the Liberal Party who've survived almost entirely on corporate donations for 30 years. Until they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. ADSCAM. Tell us another.

[WIP]

Now, now be fair. Most Ontarians support school funding as it is now. With two school boards being publicly funded. There is only restrictions to primary Catholic school, only Catholics with at least one Catholic parent may attend grades K-8. You have to produce your baptismal. Catholic secondary school is different, anyone may enroll as long as they agree to respect the traditions of the RCC and attend mass as required. Many Muslim students attend Catholic S.S. as their parents prefer the teaching to the secular public system much of the time. Plus the Catholic system is superior to the public system in many ways.

We went through all this before! Most Ontarians want ONE public school system, not TWO -- and they definitely don't want education funding extended to the other religious schools...just ask John Tory -- he'd be the Premier now if he hadn't misjudged public opinion on this issue. The conditions that extended funding through grade 12 have been abused by the Catholic School boards -- and they are NOT superior to public schools...just like the private schools, they have the option of dumping their problem students on to the public school system to look after. The public system gets stuck with everybody else's rejects, and that lowers their average scores.

[WIP]

You are free to be what you want but that will not change the founding precepts of Canada or the United States. To me secular is just another word for communism. We don't believe in anything so we will do what is in our interests. Those who drum secular are the same ones who look the other way while corporations break laws and abuse people. This cuts to the core why Canada is the way it is. No principles, No Character, no identity, nothing but a puppet waiting for instructions south of the border.

So, how many hits of acid did you have to do before you thought this one up.

[WIP]

Oh balls!

Capitalism is heavily supported by religions, and is the 'army' used to keep people down, pacify them, paralyse them with guilt, keep them from knowing how the megacorps are running our governments and stealing our future.

The strategy of the Christian Right has little to do with love of supply side economics and more to do with reducing the role of government in people's lives so that the role of the Church is once again pre-eminent -- just like it was back in the dark ages.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is chock full of condemnations of the rich and lavishes attention and God's favour on to the poor; materialism and the accumulation of wealth were generally viewed as impediments to spirituality and a gateway to a sinful life -- what's changed in the last few decades to make American-style Christianity business-friendly and creating a prosperity gospel, where God blesses the rich, instead of the poor, is the realization that government services make people less dependent on the Church (as evidenced by the drop in church attendance in Western Europe). If people can turn to welfare and unemployment insurance, then they are less dependent on the church in hard times. The Dominionists and other theocrats want no government services, except for the basic necessities like maintaining roads and other infrastructure, and of course the military!

The prime objective now is defunding public education and diverting the money to church-run schools and homeschooling associations, which are also church affiliated and have church-produced lesson plans. If education and other services are back under the control of the churches, then their power is secured.

[Canadian Blue]

The strategy of the Christian Right has little to do with love of supply side economics and more to do with reducing the role of government in people's lives so that the role of the Church is once again pre-eminent -- just like it was back in the dark ages.

Yep, we shouldn't be swayed by those evil tamborine playing Baptists. From what I hear they want to live their lives as they see fit.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is chock full of condemnations of the rich and lavishes attention and God's favour on to the poor; materialism and the accumulation of wealth were generally viewed as impediments to spirituality and a gateway to a sinful life -- what's changed in the last few decades to make American-style Christianity business-friendly and creating a prosperity gospel, where God blesses the rich, instead of the poor, is the realization that government services make people less dependent on the Church (as evidenced by the drop in church attendance in Western Europe).

Where did Jesus exactly say that when it comes to compassion we should use the power of Rome to coerce people into giving?

By the way, I wouldn't cite Western Europe, based on the fertility rate Europe won't be able to sustain it's welfare state unless it allows for a massive scale of immigrantion who largely come from actual theocratic societies.

The Dominionists and other theocrats want no government services, except for the basic necessities like maintaining roads and other infrastructure, and of course the military!

So the theocrats and dominionists are similar to Frederick Bastiat and all the other classical liberals who believe in individual liberty. That's some scary stuff, being free to live your life as you choose, man, I'm shaking in my boots right now. I don't know what I'll do once I learn to tolerate living beside Christians in a free society.

The prime objective now is defunding public education and diverting the money to church-run schools and homeschooling associations, which are also church affiliated and have church-produced lesson plans. If education and other services are back under the control of the churches, then their power is secured.

Guess what, even in Sweden and the Netherlands they give out school vouchers to parents. If they can do it in secular Europe, why not in North America?

Edited January 21, 2009 by Canadian Blue

[whowhere]

The strategy of the Christian Right has little to do with love of supply side economics and more to do with reducing the role of government in people's lives so that the role of the Church is once again pre-eminent -- just like it was back in the dark ages.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is chock full of condemnations of the rich and lavishes attention and God's favour on to the poor; materialism and the accumulation of wealth were generally viewed as impediments to spirituality and a gateway to a sinful life -- what's changed in the last few decades to make American-style Christianity business-friendly and creating a prosperity gospel, where God blesses the rich, instead of the poor, is the realization that government services make people less dependent on the Church (as evidenced by the drop in church attendance in Western Europe). If people can turn to welfare and unemployment insurance, then they are less dependent on the church in hard times. The Dominionists and other theocrats want no government services, except for the basic necessities like maintaining roads and other infrastructure, and of course the military!

Ok comrad. You should relocate to Cuba, you would like it there I am sure. Today's world is suppose to be a free and democratic world. The church days are gone buddy. The second King Louis XVI's head was chopped off in Europe and Napolean's rise collapsed the Church's grip on Europe. The church can dream of those glory days all it wants. They are never ever coming back. When you talk of church you obviously talk of a Christian.

With that I would say I doubt you have read the Old Testament and actually understood it. God Freed the Children of Isreal from Egypt by moses hand after 7 years of Bondage and hard labor. He led the Children of Isreal through the Wilderness for 40 years. Many didn't make it because God didn't feel them worthy to continue. During those 40 years, God gave Moses his Law and statues for the Children of Isreal to follow. God guided and led them and after 40 years they built a temple unto God and housed the arc of the Covenant.

This temple was the center of worship unto God. On how to worship God, Read the Commandments and Statues! After this "event" each and every prophet in the old testament was a cry for the Children of Isreal to follow the Commandments and statues. In it's essence that is the old testament.

Oddly, it appears that the Old testament Known as the Septuagint was tranlated into greek 300 Before Christ. So, really what you have is a Nutbar Called Jesus Christ who likely smoked the same crack pipe as you and went to war against the Synogoges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

READ the NEW TESTAMENT. Because if you did, obviously the Synogogue was in itself an institution and Jesus and his apostles set out to attack the Laws and statues of Moses and bring down the synogues. So keep defending Your Whore. Because Jesus is no different than when Moses went up to the mountain to get God's commandments and when he came back he found the Children of Isreal worshipping a Golden Calf. What did God do to them? He obliterated them.

I am a truth Seeker that wants to live my life in a free and just society. Religion is a personal act and to be done in private. But the christians are not content unless they impose themselves on everyone else. Christians are not happy until they defile and corrupt everyone around them.

The Fact is Jesus had access to the Old Testament as well as Greek Society for 300 years. More than enough time to plot a way to Bring down the Jewish Synogogues. It took another 300 years for Christianity to pick up steam. Christianity was thought to be a way to preserve the Roman Empire.

How right they were. The Roman Empire lives on in the written word. You are in fact you using the Roman Alphabet on this forum.

You want to turn people's mind back to religion and deny and deprive people welfare and unemployment may God grant you what you deserve and all your christian buddies: The furnace of fire (as described by jesus) where you will be obliterated out of life. Oh, of course this won't happen until Satan is finished with you first

The prime objective now is defunding public education and diverting the money to church-run schools and homeschooling associations, which are also church affiliated and have church-produced lesson plans. If education and other services are back under the control of the churches, then their power is secured.

You can Fak off with your prime objective

[ToadBrother]

I'll make things simple:

Say person "A" follows "doctrine A" and person "B" follows "doctrine B". Say I am "A" and you are "B". What you are telling me is that you can bring "doctrine B" into government policy but "doctrine A" is not allowed any place in government policy.

Convenient for person "B" don't you think?

Well, I guess if you redefine words at leisure to win arguments, you might have a point, but as secularism is not a doctrine, you don't.

[ToadBrother]

I can grasp what you're trying to say but you'd probably have more luck equating the two as belief systems and not religions per se. Just my two cents.

You're saying that the statement "Governments should not enforce religious doctrine" is a belief system? You, a Catholic, whose co-religionists for so long suffered under religious intolerance (you weren't even fully enfranchised in Great Britain until the 19th century, and a Catholic still can't sit on the throne), thinks that secularism is wrong? Hell, it's partially because of the anti-papist laws (and the anti-noncomformist laws) that the notion of separation of church and state was invoked.

Look, it's one thing for a politician to say "My religious beliefs inform my decisions". Of course it will. No one expects complete compartmentalization, that would be absurd. It's quite another to say "This is a Christian country, so we're going to make sure that the government enforces Christian principles".

There's no doubt that public officials have, at times, to do a bit of balancing act. A Muslim MP might have to vote on a bill regulating interest rates, though he is religiously forbidden to charge interest. The MP can either abstain from such a vote (and thus potentially do some great disservice to his own constituents) or be pragmatic, and try to govern for all his constituents.

The same applies to all sorts of potential decisions any given elected representative is going to have to face; abortion, contraceptives, capital punishment, gay rights, and so forth. What a secular government demands is that a decision not solely informed by ones' religious beliefs, but by the concept that a government is for all of the people, and that a government's job is not to enforce a particular religious dogma. If someone votes against abortion because he or she feels that it is murder, that life begins at conception, then that's one thing, but if he or she does so because "God says so" then I have a real issue here.

And that's the whole point of separation of Church and State. Historically all sorts of things, good and bad, have been declared divinely inspired, and ultimately governance becomes little more than an exercise in who can quote the most scriptures, or who happens to have the right religious affiliations. The other side of the coin, and the one that many who seem to have such a problem with secularism ignore, is the toxic nature of the politicization of religion. They seem to have little problem with the Bible prancing around the halls of power, but what about the halls of power prancing around the Bible; church dogma decided by decree. As a Catholic, you may want to inform yourself of the interferences over the Church's history by temporal governments; of bishops installed by kings who competed with the spiritual authority of Rome, of whole orders banished and banned, of the very papacy itself taken hostage.

Secularism didn't evolve as some sort of anti-religious atheistic political movement, but by the thinkers of the Enlightenment who were only a couple of generations removed from the horrors of the Thirty Years War, were first-hand witnesses to the deep inequity of the Test Acts of England (and their close cousins on the Continent). To them, the very idea that governments should use their power to enforce upon free men dogmatic proclamations was abhorrent, a form of tyranny that had no place in a free society. Secularism wasn't born out of atheism (which, in its modern form, really didn't even exist back then), but out of the idea that a just society leaves religious belief to the individual, that a man is accountable to no one, great or small, for his beliefs, and that his beliefs should not in any way affect him in the eyes of the law.

[M.Dancer]

Well, I guess if you redefine words at leisure to win arguments, you might have a point, but as secularism is not a doctrine, you don't.

Quite right Secularism isn't a doctrine although it is a policy. Atheism isn't a belief either.

[ToadBrother]

Quite right Secularism isn't a doctrine although it is a policy. Atheism isn't a belief either.

Properly, secularism is a political philosophy. If it's a doctrine or a belief system, then so is democracy.

[WIP]

Yep, we shouldn't be swayed by those evil tamborine playing Baptists. From what I hear they want to live their lives as they see fit.

Yes, and those evil, tambourine-playing Pentacostals, Catholics and Mormons who comprise the Religious Right. A common strategy of fascists and authoritarian leaders is to make false claims of persecution, yet that is exactly what the religious right is doing today! From their rhetoric, you wouldn't guess that they have been in the driver's seat of U.S. politics for the last 20 years, as they have chipped away at the principle of separation of church and state, and hacked away at government services, and are close to taking control of the Supreme Court. The power of the Religious Right keeps growing -- and even during times such as the present, when their Party has been dumped on its ass, it only fuels the outsider rhetoric as they go back to concentrating at the grassroots level, to prepare for the next push towards Church domination.

Where did Jesus exactly say that when it comes to compassion we should use the power of Rome to coerce people into giving?

Have you read your New Testament? You must have heard of this verse, even if you never actually read it:

Matthew 19:23-24

Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

These ones don't sound any more friendly towards the prosperity gospel of people like Pat Robertson:

Luke 6:24

Woe to you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

James 5:1

Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

And the Old Testament supplies the guidelines of how much the average person (the farmer) is supposed to leave for the poor:

EXODUS

23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

Every 7 years! What is that, about a 13 or 14% tax right there! That sounds like coercing people in to giving! And that's not the only 'tax' to support the poor:

LEVITICUS

19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger....

and there's more where that came from:

LEVITICUS

23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger:

DEUTERONOMY

15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

PSALM

82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

PROVERBS

22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

29:7 The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it.

So, have you ever heard those verses quoted by the popular televangelsts in their 'blessed are the rich' sermons? Not likely! In order to make Judaism and Christianity free-market-friendly, they have to use more claims of allegory and symbolic language than the liberal theologians use for pacifist and inclusive theologies!

By the way, I wouldn't cite Western Europe, based on the fertility rate Europe won't be able to sustain it's welfare state unless it allows for a massive scale of immigrantion who largely come from actual theocratic societies.

The world is likely right on the brink of its maximum carrying capacity right now. All of these third world nations that are already overpopulated, are going to go through famine as agricultural yields have reached their limit. Europe, and most of the developed world, are on the rigth track by reducing populations. Demographic problems are a temporary phenomena until all of baby boomers start dying off. Using immigration to balance out demographics, should be more carefully controlled, as third world immigrants with third world attitudes about women's rights and birth control, could shift back into exponential population growth.

So the theocrats and dominionists are similar to Frederick Bastiat and all the other classical liberals who believe in individual liberty. That's some scary stuff, being free to live your life as you choose, man, I'm shaking in my boots right now. I don't know what I'll do once I learn to tolerate living beside Christians in a free society.

Right now, at a point where classical liberalism has led to massive corruption and fraud in the banking and financial systems, it's likely not a good time to be banging the drum for libertarianism! Most of the mainstream libertarian sites, like the Cato Institute, have been in damage control mode since Bush's 2nd term started.

Anyway, if you go right to the extreme of libertarianism -- the anarcho-capitalists -- you'll find a number of Christian Reconstructionists -- the most fanatical of the Dominionist Movement. These are the guys who want democracy replaced with old testament judges, and the old testament law in place of modern civil law, including penalties such as public stoning. Except for a few bold crackpots such as Gary North, the son-in-law of reconstructionist patriarch R.J. Rushdoony, they are a little more discreet in informing outsiders about their desired end game strategy. But their influence cannot be discounted, since reconstructionist organizations are the leaders in the U.S. homeschooling movement.

Speaking of Gary North, this extreme right financial whiz is an end of the world maven, who last got wide public attention back 10 years ago, when he was one of the main promoters of the Y2K disaster scenario. But why would North believe in so much economic freedom and lack of government if he is a theocratic fascist? Simple, less government, more church! Especially in hard times, somebody has to maintain the social order, and with government out of the way, the church becomes the default institution to run things.

Guess what, even in Sweden and the Netherlands they give out school vouchers to parents. If they can do it in secular Europe, why not in North America?

I don't know about Sweden, but England's experiment with charter schooling under Tony Blair, has turned into a nightmare, as charter schools are turned into Muslim and Christian academies. It's said now that a child growing up in East London, can be educated in the language of their origin, immersed in Islam and the culture of their parents, and have little or no contact with anyone who is not Muslim or part of their ethnic community -- now who wants to bring that sort of nightmare to our shores?