Poltical Party Welfare

[madmax]

You won't get Harper to take away that $ 1.95 for anything. His party would throw him out so fast his head would spin. He knew what he was doing. Sadly, you didn't.

The CPC doesn't need tax money. No Party needs the tax payers money. The $1.95 needs to go and I don't care who does it.

As for Harper knowing what he was doing...... lets see.

Harper and Flaherty discuss with virtually no one within the party, their intent to cut the LPC off at the knees. A sneaky and bold attack to finish off a party in need of a major overhaul. However, as bullies often do, they don't know when to quit. Harper had just called an election to give him a mandate and he got one, not much of one, and it wasn't the MAJORITY he sought. His goodwill to work with other parties after this setback, quickly took a backseat to an opportunistic endeavour to kick the LPC while they were down in the fetal position.

This attack, to behead the LPC with the removal of Public Funding, would provide the deathblow. Not considering the needs of the Canadian Public, the current economic climate, or remember that he governed over a majority, Harper strategically felt he had the upper hand and could do as he pleased, and that meant finishing off the LPC.

The problem is that the final kick to the head was telegraphed, the LPC said, NO ... We won't lay here and take this fatal blow. We will, set aside our arrogant and corrupt ways as well as our differences with the BQ and NDP and work with them, to save our LPC BUTTS.

Harper DIDN'T know what he was doing, or more importantly, when bringing up the issue, had no idea that the stars would align against him. His own party took offense to the partisan measure and the fact that the could lose power over this....

But the CPC could (with some hardship) continue on without this government handout. The CPC MPs were more upset that Harper/Flaherty had cornered the enemy and the enemy was fighting back.

No Party needs government money more then the LPC. No political party is more dependent for its own survival on the taxpayer, then the LPC.

Harper would never be tossed out for this policy by his own party, he would only be tossed out if he lost power by pulling a Joe Clark. (HE NEARLY DID, and may yet).

Timing of the $1.95 had everything to do with it. If they had worked with other parties and broke the discussion with them first it would have been better. The Biggest problem is that ALL parties borrowed against the tax payer money.

And this is what is wrong with the system. If you give a political party money, they will spend it. If you give them taxpayer money they will spend it. After a $1.95 it becomes, $2.50 then $5.00 and up and up and up as there is always an excuse to spend money and there is always justification to pick the tax payers pocket for selfish reasons.

I do not believe that Harper would nearly Blow is first couple weaks as Prime Minister, move the pre budget vote, then put the country into a constitutional crises over a position he had no intention of following through on.

It was only the fear of losing government that had him take it off the table, but it was too late. The LPC knew that Harpers intent is to go for the kill. It is political bloodsport 24hours a day 7 days a week for him.

His political survival made him take it off the table, nothing else.

I have no use for Liberals in need of a handout.

Edited January 26, 2009 by madmax

[Molly]

Except... they aren't talking about the $1.95 putting them in the black and giving them cash in hand.

They are talking about the OTHER political party welfare... the 60% of election expenses that is paid out by taxpayers, for every riding where they recieve 15% of the popular vote. That's the one that was massaged to the max through the in-out scheme.

The $10,000,000 or so that they would reap via $1.95/vote would be IN ADDITION to that, along with the benefit from the 75% tax credit for donations.

The Conservatives are awash in money taken from taxpayers. They don't need the $.195.

[Mr.Canada]

Except... they aren't talking about the $1.95 putting them in the black and giving them cash in hand.

They are talking about the OTHER political party welfare... the 60% of election expenses that is paid out by taxpayers, for every riding where they recieve 15% of the popular vote. That's the one that was massaged to the max through the in-out scheme.

The $10,000,000 or so that they would reap via $1.95/vote would be IN ADDITION to that, along with the benefit from the 75% tax credit for donations.

The Conservatives are awash in money taken from taxpayers. They don't need the $.195.

We must end the $1.95 subsidy. This is welfare. Parties can raise their own money if their policies are popular enough.

[Wild Bill]

There is something that many of you are overlooking here. Why was this made such a public issue? Let's look at the last Conservative Convention and their economic update, shall we.

"On Saturday morning, delegates learned the party is in robust financial health. The head of the federal Conservative fundraising machine said the party will soon be debt-free and have cash in hand once $10-million in Elections Canada rebates are returned to the party following last month's election victory."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...l_gam_mostrecom

So why a week and half later did Harper risk the 10 million that was going to get them out of debt and give them cash in hand? He knew he wouldn't have to. He had no intention of taking it away but knew that the opposition would react. They did. It became the biggest issue in the update, concealing what should have been the biggest issue in the update. The fact that we were already in a deficit buried in the 'proposed' selling off of Canadian assets.

Why would they cave so quickly? Come on. When does Harper cave as quickly as he did over this isssue? Very clever. The news of the day was 'political welfare' and the media ran with it. We've become a nation of pawns waiting for cheap political tricks and media spin to do our thinking for us.

You won't get Harper to take away that $ 1.95 for anything. His party would throw him out so fast his head would spin. He knew what he was doing. Sadly, you didn't.

The Conservatives will not slit their own throats; not intentionally anyway.

I remember several quotes from the PMO in the papers at the time the $1.95 was first revealed. They knew from the start it would hit them for $10 million! Did they intend to do it anyway? Of course!

Why? Because the CPC can afford it! They would take the biggest hit because they received the most votes. The difference was and is that the CPC receives far more donations from the grassroots, from individuals. This is a holdover from the Reform days.

i can understand why a 'Progressive Tory' would not have seen that right away. At the time the PCs were dying before they merged with the Alliance they were so poor they would have thought a donation from an individual was a rare blessing from Heaven! And even then it would only have happened in Halifax or Pictou, Nova Scotia. They were ready to rob a church poor box, for Pete's sake!

This has been discussed before. The opposition parties were the only ones vulnerable to losing the $1.95, because they had made little or no effort for individual donations, before or after Chretien changed the rules. So the machinery was not there. Especially the Liberals, who with their present debt load would have been driven bankrupt the day the $1.95 funding was lost. It was that desperation that caused the formation of the Coalition, after all. Harper put them in the position of cornered rats! They had no choice but to fight, any way they could.

$10 million would only have been a small hurt for the CPC. A cheap price to pay to bankrupt the Liberals. Perhaps they thought that only Dion would have controlled their response and having demonstrated himself to be a total "nob" would have been bowled over. It would seem Harper forgot that there were actually still some capable individuals within the Liberal party and they would step in to steer the ship off the reefs.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Wild Bill

[madmax]

Except... they aren't talking about the $1.95 putting them in the black and giving them cash in hand.

They are talking about the OTHER political party welfare... the 60% of election expenses that is paid out by taxpayers, for every riding where they recieve 15% of the popular vote. That's the one that was massaged to the max through the in-out scheme.

Has the in and out scheme been proven as a violation of the rules?

That is why I am of the believe like some others here, that all these subsidies have to be dropped. Otherwise it is constant scheming to get more and more of the publics money for their political party.

The $10,000,000 or so that they would reap via $1.95/vote would be IN ADDITION to that, along with the benefit from the 75% tax credit for donations.

The Conservatives are awash in money taken from taxpayers. They don't need the $.195.

Sure sounds like it to me.

[jdobbin]

That is why I am of the believe like some others here, that all these subsidies have to be dropped. Otherwise it is constant scheming to get more and more of the publics money for their political party.

And personal income tax deductions as well?

[madmax]

That's correct. Eliminate the personal income tax deductions for donating to a political party.

[Progressive Tory]

$10 million would only have been a small hurt for the CPC.

Then why would the Party's money guy tell the delegates at their own convention that they would be in the black only after receiving this 10 million? They may fundraise but also spend, spend, spend. 26 billion more taxpayer dollars then they took in.

Harper gambled and lost. Another interesting thing from the convention:

"Not only were Tories debating policy changes that threaten to expose divisions in their party, but the Harper government is increasingly at risk of running a deficit and under pressure to bail out industries. These are scenarios that its Reform and Canadian Alliance predecessor parties abhorred."

He spoke at that convention but obviously didn't listen.

[madmax]

Wild Bill made an excellent reply. I wish you had commented on more of it. I believe he put everything forth in a clear manner and I agree with those comments.

What I find troubling about your arguments is the situation of outrageous CPC campaign spending.

SPEND SPEND SPEND as you put it.

More reason to cut off them off from public funding. They need to operate within their means, and I believe with their fundraising activities coming strictly from donors, this puts greater pressure to be more responsible with the money.

In meantime, if people think that money needs to be attached to make a vote worth something, how about we put that figure down to .02 cents per vote? That'd be around $50,000 for the CPC which I still think is $50,000 to much but then some might get their 2 cents worth

[Progressive Tory]

In meantime, if people think that money needs to be attached to make a vote worth something, how about we put that figure down to .02 cents per vote? That'd be around $50,000 for the CPC which I still think is $50,000 to much but then some might get their 2 cents worth

Your arguments for not allowing any public taxpayer money to go to political parties are sound and based on logic.

This is merely a case of a difference of opinion, because I think democratically that taxpayers should have a vested interest in elections, and a guarantee that their vote will count for something, no matter what.

My point is that not even the Conservatives would support your view because I have a few fundraising letters from the Party, forwarded to me by other people, and they mention the lure of the tax deduction. You'll never get them, or indeed any Party to sign off on this.

I'll gladly give them my $ 1.95

[madmax]

Your arguments for not allowing any public taxpayer money to go to political parties are sound and based on logic.

Realizing that you called me delusional in another thread, I recognize the give and take in any discussion.

He is an update on Party Fundraising

http://punditsguide.ca/2009/02/conservativ...212-million.php

Conservatives raise record $21.2 million in 2008

The Conservative Party raised a record $21.2 million in 2008 according to fundraising data available at the Elections Canada website but as yet unannounced in a news release. Elections Canada is expected to announce the release of the parties' 4th Quarter Returns later today

The NDP also scored a personal best of $5.5M just behind the Liberals, who at $5.9M managed to improve on their 2007 performance of $4.5M, but were still down from their 2006 showing of $9-9.8M (see below for some notes on the data