Conservative judge clears Chretien

[Argus]

Something tells me that if it were about Conservatives, you would not be making such ignorant, brainless generalizations.

As always, you are completely wrong. I had earlier abandoned the PC party, you know, when they became as corrupt and dishonest as the Liberals.

You, on the other hand, would drop to your knees and bend over if a Liberal MP walked into the room.

[Argus]

Actually I don't think many people at all have any care or concern with what you think a justice system should look like. Whether they are Liberals or not. Most people are capable of looking at the justice system we have with some objectivity, taking the good and the bad.

Yes, yes. And all accountants are boring and all CEOs are evil and all 7/11 stores are run by immigrants... blah blah blah. Sometimes there just isn't anything worth reading on the internet. I guess I should have learned that from these forums by now.

All 711 stores are not run by immigrants, just about 95%. Not all accountants are boring, just about 95%. And not all CEOs are evil, though 95% CEOS are fixated on profits above all else.

Do you doubt any of the above? What planet are you living on right now?

[Argus]

Hmm, Gomery himself said there was no evidence that Chretien was involved in stealing money, simply that he should be blamed because he set up the program.

No evidence? What evidence do you think there could possibly be? I mean, honestly, do you expect a signed affirmation (on a napkin perhaps) by Chretien that he will kick back money to ad agencies if they donate to the Liberal Party?

There was more than sufficient testimony and evidence that the sponsorship mess was able to proceed, despite how many rules Guite broke, only because of interference from the PMO. He set up this program, he put his pet mafioso Gagliano in charge of the department, and the PMO ran interference when senior public servants tried to reign things in. That's more than sufficient for me, especially given how Chretien treated public money as entirely disposable, for the purpose of his party's benefit, over the years.

[Argus]

Of course, as far as our justice system is concerned, I do have to wonder about the people who simply declare that it is "broken". Many people may not think the system is perfect, but consider the system far from "broken". In fact, our justice system has served as an example to other countries where people have either come to see our system in action, or Canadians have gone to other countries to teach about our system. Perhaps it isn't so bad after all.

There's no doubt third world types are flown here, at our expense, so we can proudly show them are wonderful justice system. An example? To whom? When the world seeks great legal wisdom that has been written by jurists of note, they look to the UK and US, not to Canada. What great legal minds occupy the benches in Canada, where the criteria to become a judge is that you have to be a suckup to politicians, donate money, and perhaps offer free legal services (illegally)?

We do not seek great minds when we look for judges. It isn't even among the criteria of selection. We look for people who are friends of the governing party, and from the right geographical area, or in Paul Martin's case, we look for people who are gay rights advocates.

[Argus]

I think this is part Chretien's point. He will be viewed as being a "crook" despite the fact that there is no real evidence he was. Part of the reason people have this impression is that they A) misunderstand Gomery's report, and paid more attention to Gomery's off the cuff statements rather than the report.

And how much evidence is there that Mulroney is a crook? And how much has the lack of that evidence stopped the many Chretien defenders from frothing at the mouth over Mulroney?

[MontyBurns]

Why stop there. Let's just burn them at the stake.

Good idea. Now you're thinkin!

[peter_puck]

And how much evidence is there that Mulroney is a crook? And how much has the lack of that evidence stopped the many Chretien defenders from frothing at the mouth over Mulroney?

Brian Mulroney

>Let a certified sleaze ball has access to the government.

>Lied under oath about knowing the sleaze ball

>Took envelopes full of 100 000's in cash from the sleaze ball. This cash apparenty flowed through swiss back accounts before coming to Mulroney.

>Committed tax fraud to hide his transactions with the sleaze ball

>He made an utter ass of himself trying to explain the above

There are also the statements by Schreiber and some of Mulroney's former collegues.

Now that the little strawman is dealt with, again, what evidence is there that Chretian was involved in fraud ?

[Remiel]

As always, you are completely wrong. I had earlier abandoned the PC party, you know, when they became as corrupt and dishonest as the Liberals.

You, on the other hand, would drop to your knees and bend over if a Liberal MP walked into the room.

Nice way to try and dodge, Argus, but I did not say " Progressive Conservative " , I said, " Conservative " . You know, as in " Conservative Party of Canada " ?

But as always, you are completely wrong about me. I have always been rather noncommital to political parties, you know, since no political party is really worth being truly loyal to.

[Argus]

Brian Mulroney

>Let a certified sleaze ball has access to the government.

Have access to the government? Huh?

Chretien appointed a guy with mafia connections as his public works minister.

>Lied under oath about knowing the sleaze ball

Chretien simply pretended he didn't remember - anything - about anything. Not that he didn't lie all the time, of course.

>Took envelopes full of 100 000's in cash from the sleaze ball.

Perhaps, but not until after he was out of office. Chretien's boys were patting themselves down in Italian restaurants looking for wires as they passed envelopes of cash back and forth. On top of which Chretien forced the Business Development Bank of Canada to "loan" $625,000 to a friend of his with a criminal past who happened to owe him money, then fired the president of the BDC when he tried to call in the loan for non-payment (the loan was never repaid), and tried to have him imprisoned. That friend of Chretien's was later charged with arson, btw. How Chretien was eventually paid seems shrouded in mystery, but apparently the money came from the Business Development Bank.

>Committed tax fraud to hide his transactions with the sleaze ball

The Canada Revenue Agency says otherwise.

>He made an utter ass of himself trying to explain the above

As opposed to Chretien playing with golf balls? And anyway, since when does making an ass of yourself constitute criminality?

There are also the statements by Schreiber and some of Mulroney's former collegues.

Statements from Schreiber, who has perjured himself repeatedly, aren't worth the paper they're written on, and there are plenty of statements about Chretien from former colleagues.

Meantime, Chretien walked into the vaults of the bank of Canada, stuffed a million dollars into a pair of briefcases, and walked out with it, then handed it to a friend of his named Gilbert Parent as a goodbye present after he was forced to resign as speaker of the house over sexual harassment allegations...... Okay, he didn't actually do that. THAT would have been illegal, after all. Instead he invented a post for Parent - Ambassador to the Environment - at a $250,000 per year honorarium for four years. But that's fine, right? That's very different, right? It's not like we're some third world banana republic, after all.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Argus

[peter_puck]

I was asking you what evidence you had that Chretien was a crook in the context of the Sponsorship scandal. I really don't see any here, but I will address what you have brought up.

Have access to the government? Huh?

Chretien appointed a guy with mafia connections as his public works minister.

Evidence ? Yes a company owned by a cousin of a mobster did business with a company owned by Gagliano (SP). The RCMP investigated it and found out it was nothing. Yes there was some guy who said Gagliano was a "made man" and a "soldier" from some crime family, but the story was so incredible the opposition never even directly refered to it.

Chretien simply pretended he didn't remember - anything - about anything. Not that he didn't lie all the time, of course.

Perhaps, but not until after he was out of office. Chretien's boys were patting themselves down in Italian restaurants looking for wires as they passed envelopes of cash back and forth.

Chretien's boys ? I am looking for evidence that Chretien was involved in criminal activity. I know low level memebers of the Liberal party and a civil servent were sucking cash for their own purpose. I am asking what evidence is there that Chretien was involved.

.

As opposed to Chretien playing with golf balls? And anyway, since when does making an ass of yourself constitute criminality?

Chretien looked "small town cheap", but Mulroney's explanations were just not credible.

He said he took the cash because Schreiber told him this was how international business deals were done (Mulroney is an international business man and a lawyer!)

He said it was for lobbying services yet can provide no evidence he actually did anything.

Mulroney is a very bright guy, and he went in their and played stuipid.

Meantime, Chretien walked into the vaults of the bank of Canada, stuffed a million dollars into a pair of briefcases, and walked out with it, then handed it to a friend of his named Gilbert Parent as a goodbye present after he was forced to resign as speaker of the house over sexual harassment allegations...... Okay, he didn't actually do that. THAT would have been illegal, after all. Instead he invented a post for Parent - Ambassador to the Environment - at a $250,000 per year honorarium for four years. But that's fine, right? That's very different, right? It's not like we're some third world banana republic, after all.

Patronage appointments are not illegal. Every government has done that. I think it should be illegal, but again, I am looking for crimes.

QUOTE

>Committed tax fraud to hide his transactions with the sleaze ball

The Canada Revenue Agency says otherwise.

Did they ? When ? Shortly after Schreiber got arrested (and a former Conservative minister paid his bail) Mulroney took advantage of a CRA program that will not prosecute tax fraud if you voluntarily disclose it. Mulroney was not prosecuted because he reported it before CRA found out. Which makes me think he was afraid Schreiber would use it as blackmail material.

[daniel]

I was asking you what evidence you had that Chretien was a crook in the context of the Sponsorship scandal. I really don't see any here, but I will address what you have brought up.

I'm not surprised he's denying the findings of the Federal Court. Argus is still in denial that the Conservatives lost the '93 election.

Evidence ? Yes a company owned by a cousin of a mobster did business with a company owned by Gagliano (SP). The RCMP investigated it and found out it was nothing. Yes there was some guy who said Gagliano was a "made man" and a "soldier" from some crime family, but the story was so incredible the opposition never even directly refered to it. ...

Ironically, there's stronger evidence of Conservative links to organized crime, but in another thread, the rightwingers think it's ok.

[Argus]

I was asking you what evidence you had that Chretien was a crook in the context of the Sponsorship scandal. I really don't see any here, but I will address what you have brought up.

Except for the stuff about Shawinigate, which you deleted without replying. I wonder why.

Evidence ? Yes a company owned by a cousin of a mobster did business with a company owned by Gagliano (SP)

.

Gagliano did accounting for the mob. And at least three people involved in the sponsorship scandal spoke of threats, two of them saying they feared they would be killed by Gagliano's friends if they spoke up.

The RCMP investigated it and found out it was nothing.

The RCMP investigated and we were told they found nothing Ever seen the actual results?

Chretien's boys ? I am looking for evidence that Chretien was involved in criminal activity. I know low level memebers of the Liberal party and a civil servent were sucking cash for their own purpose. I am asking what evidence is there that Chretien was involved.

Jean Carle was Chretien's hatchet man. He was the one who helped set this thing up. He and Chretien's other hatchet man Jean Pelletier oversaw Sponsorgate. Oh they say now they knew nothing about the irregularities, but we do know from testimony at the Gomery commision from the former deputy minister that he felt helpless to reign in Guite because of protection from Gagliano and from the PMO.

The fact is, that Guite could not have gotten away with the complete disregard for contracting rules and regulations that the AG's report showed. He could not have. Okay. I know those rules and I know how zealously they're watched by Finance people in the various agencies and departments. Guite did not have the power to flout those rules without severe consequences, including his removal. Nor could Gagliano have protected him alone. Even a minister doesn't have that power. The protection came from the PMO

Patronage appointments are not illegal. Every government has done that. I think it should be illegal, but again, I am looking for crimes.

Patronage is when you give favourable attention to a supporter, giving a contract to them, or hiring them. But when you make up a job that doesn't exist and has no duties and give a guy a quarter million a year that's corruption.

[noahbody]

Ironically, there's stronger evidence of Conservative links to organized crime, but in another thread, the rightwingers think it's ok.

Um, the Liberal Party was guilty of organized crime. Secondly, you really need to read up on Gagliano.

[noahbody]

Evidence ? Yes a company owned by a cousin of a mobster did business with a company owned by Gagliano (SP). The RCMP investigated it and found out it was nothing. Yes there was some guy who said Gagliano was a "made man" and a "soldier" from some crime family, but the story was so incredible the opposition never even directly refered to it.

In 2001, opposition MPs demanded to know why Gagliano’s Montreal riding office contacted the immigration department on behalf of Maria Sicurella di Amodeo. The woman’s husband, Gaetano Amodeo, was arrested that year in Montreal in connection with Mafia-related murders in Italy and Germany.

Gagliano said his staff had carried out a routine service for a constituent and did not know Amodeo’s background.

A decade ago, Gagliano found his rise to cabinet delayed after the RCMP told prime minister Jean Chrétien Gagliano’s accounting firm was working for companies owned by Agostino Cuntrera, who spent time in prison for conspiracy in the murder of another mobster. Gagliano’s firm later stopped working for Cuntrera’s firms.

Cuntrera came from the same Sicilian town as Gagliano and worked to help Gagliano get elected in his riding.

In 1996, the Star reported police questioned Gagliano about his name appearing in the notebooks of suspicious characters, including a Mafia member fatally shot on Dec. 14, 1991, in Sicily.

Antonio Enzio Salvo, 34, had lived in Gagliano’s Montreal-area riding before immigration officials forced him to return to Italy. Salvo was killed by a shotgun blast as he sat in his Mercedes Benz.

Gagliano was cleared by the RCMP and eventually appointed to the Chrétien cabinet, becoming a minister of state in September, 1994, and labour minister in January, 1996.

In the Commons yesterday, deputy Conservative leader Peter MacKay asked the government if the RCMP had ever raised doubts about Gagliano when the police did a security clearance for him in advance of his appointment to cabinet, the Star’s Les Whittington reports.

Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan said the government does not comment on RCMP activities.

http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page180.html

And yes he was also named by an FBI informant.

[bk59]

The justice system needs to stop focussing on the criminals rights so much. Also, much more severe punishment(ex. flogging) needs to be meted out to criminals. Then we will have a system the whole world will envy.

Oh yes, because the whole world envies the justice systems of places like Iran and even China where rights are ignored and punishments are severe.