Is some provinces seat total fair?

[jdobbin]

The Constitution was Trudeaus creation, and it made an awkward situation nearly impossible to fix.

I know you hate to hear anythign that treats PET as anything other than a deity, but there it is....

And I'm saying some of the problems were entrenched long before the constitution. But there it is.

[Argus]

Quebecers might like a say in breaking their provinces into two provinces. It certainlty would not be 'ideal' for them. the Quebec nation is much more than a political institution to be efficiently squeezed into a polyanish political system. Political systems should serve the social and national aspirations and not the other way around.

Nobody is going to break up Quebec into two provinces and, if that fantasy ever did come true...which ever 'province' did not include Montreal would very shortly be an independent country.

I am perfectly okay with them leaving. In fact, I encourage it.

[oreodontist]

I am perfectly okay with them leaving. In fact, I encourage it.

Quebecers will decide.

Fortunately 'nationalism' and borders will become less important as a new generation logs on to the world wide web and the 'sense of community' shifts from a geographic base to one of common interest. I have a nephew who grew up in Australia and a niece who grew up in Quebec and neither feels more bound to those political entities than other places they have lived. They tend to follow work opportunities and frinds more so than being confined by some national border. Perhaps they are the minority but more of this is also occuring in Europe where borders are less relevent than ever. With the exception of the Muslim world, 50 years from now kids might look back on nation states with the amusement we look the religious fault lines that once defined Europe.

[Wild Bill]

Nobody is going to break up Quebec into two provinces and, if that fantasy ever did come true...which ever 'province' did not include Montreal would very shortly be an independent country.

At the time of the last referendum, did you not listen to the words of the First Nations folks in Quebec? They came flat out and said if Quebec separated they would NOT willingly and peacefully allow the native land to separate with it! They considered themselves part of Canada and part of Canada they would stay no matter what the separatists decided. It would have made Oka look like a Sunday picnic.

Bouchard and Parizeau were in a panic and flatly refused to comment, to the point of running from any reporter that appeared to want to ask questions about how a separatist government would respond to them.

It was actually kinda humerous to watch!

[oreodontist]

At the time of the last referendum, did you not listen to the words of the First Nations folks in Quebec? They came flat out and said if Quebec separated they would NOT willingly and peacefully allow the native land to separate with it! They considered themselves part of Canada and part of Canada they would stay no matter what the separatists decided. It would have made Oka look like a Sunday picnic.

Bouchard and Parizeau were in a panic and flatly refused to comment, to the point of running from any reporter that appeared to want to ask questions about how a separatist government would respond to them.

It was actually kinda humerous to watch!

Not so. I lived a few years in Quebec and, unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec nationalists don't cow tail to the native population. Quebec nationalists quite frankly don't give a damn what natives think outside of their one man one vote. Natives in Quebec are 'Anglophones' and won't trump democratic aspirations of the majority of Quebecers.

Nationalists in Quebec actually welcome native push back as it becomes a rally point. This is why any talk of a partitioning of Quebec is rejected not just outright by nationalists but EVERY member of Mulroney's and Chretien's cabinet ministers from Quebec. The non divisionabilty of Quebec is a plank of the Quebec Liberal Party AND the Federal Liberal Party in Quebec. Harper would NEVER say Quebec is divisible or he would win zip zip seats in Quebec.

I doubt many Canadians outside of Quebec would want to start some type of civil war or Northern Ireland type situation if Quebecers want to be independent. At least I don't fathom any from here in a\Aberta caring that much....it would be more a response of 'then leave and don't forget to shut the doo behind you'. Most would have no desire to start another two centuries of Quebec issu dominating the Canadian agenda. I'm surprised even folks in Ontario would want to keep an acre of Quebec and have a thorn in the thumb 'forever'. I suspect it would be also largely an attitude of 'good riddance'.

Edited May 11, 2008 by oreodontist

[Argus]

Not so. I lived a few years in Quebec and, unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec nationalists don't cow tail to the native population. Quebec nationalists quite frankly don't give a damn what natives think outside of their one man one vote. Natives in Quebec are 'Anglophones' and won't trump democratic aspirations of the majority of Quebecers.

How exactly are "democratic aspirations" reconciled when you say Quebec can leave any time they choose, but Quebecers say Quebec itself is inviolate and no one in any region has the right to leave?

[oreodontist]

How exactly are "democratic aspirations" reconciled when you say Quebec can leave any time they choose, but Quebecers say Quebec itself is inviolate and no one in any region has the right to leave?

??????

Where did I say that? I pointed out the reality of the view of the majority of Quebecers including the provincial and federal parties. Whether or not a region in Quebec can be 'morally justified' leaving the province is a different issue. In the 'reality' of Quebec it is not going to happen. Quebecers can also make an argument for taking Labrador with them...but it isn't part of any realistic scenario. Won't happen.

If Quebecers vote in a democratic manner to be independent then that's fine with me. If YOU want to start organizing some region of Quebec to stay part of Canada then go ahead. As long as it's done in a democratic manner then good luck to you. however, I as an Albertan, will not support such a movement. I don't want any part of Quebec staying within Canada. I don't want or need the hastle or have any desire to keep a thorn in our political side and a 'taking' hand in our pockets.

Quebec nationlaists find the Canadian nationalists outside of Quebec as amusing. 'We love you....we want you tQ part of Canada...let's all hug'....then, in contrast, " but if you leave then you'll be sorry because blah, blah, blah,...." Not unlike a personal relationship in which one claims to really care about the welfare of the other person but, when he or she walks out the door, hopes they fall flat on their face....'you'll be sorry'.

Quebecers can chose their fate. I don't want to bribe, threaten, or anything else to keep them part of Canada, If they chose to stay then that's a positive, but if not, then I hope they do well and and we can get on with making the rest of Canada a great country. As an Albertan I certainly don't want ant residual Quebec issue dominating our agenda but, if you want it, then the majority rule should set policy in a democracy.

[Wild Bill]

Not so. I lived a few years in Quebec and, unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec nationalists don't cow tail to the native population. Quebec nationalists quite frankly don't give a damn what natives think outside of their one man one vote. Natives in Quebec are 'Anglophones' and won't trump democratic aspirations of the majority of Quebecers.

I think that your passion for kicking Quebec out of Canada has clouded your objectivity.

Natives in Quebec would likely go to actual war to keep their land within Canada. It would make Oka look like a Sunday school picnic! It's one thing to say that "Quebec nationalists quite frankly don't give a damn what natives think". Really? Do you seriously suggest that they would begin to shoot back?

Hell, even at Oka the provincial government wussed out and begged the feds to send the soldiers in. If they were separating they'd have to send their own soldiers.

No, the choice would be to section some parts of Quebec or spill blood. I don't think any separatist government would want to start out with their boots bloody.

[oreodontist]

I think that your passion for kicking Quebec out of Canada has clouded your objectivity.

Natives in Quebec would likely go to actual war to keep their land within Canada. It would make Oka look like a Sunday school picnic! It's one thing to say that "Quebec nationalists quite frankly don't give a damn what natives think". Really? Do you seriously suggest that they would begin to shoot back?

Hell, even at Oka the provincial government wussed out and begged the feds to send the soldiers in. If they were separating they'd have to send their own soldiers.

No, the choice would be to section some parts of Quebec or spill blood. I don't think any separatist government would want to start out with their boots bloody.

No, as a French Canadian, I have no desire to kick Quebec out of Canada. But, if my relatives in the Gaspesie of Quebec and elsewhere in the province want to leave, then so be it. Countries come and countries go. If you think the natives of Quebec have some special say in the fate of Quebec then make that argument to the Federal Liberals and Conservatives.... but of who said they would respect Quebec leaving as a unit with a 60% 'yes' vote. The Quebec Liberal party says that Quebec is not divasable as have the PQ and the ADQ. You can start a movement to present an alternative to keeps parts of Quebec in Canada but I don't know how you'll convince Quebecers....but go ahead. As an Albertan, however, I will support Quebec leaving as a complete entity if the time ever comes and the 'Quebec issue' no longer tops the agenda for Canada.

As Argus writes "I am perfectly okay with them leaving. In fact, I encourage it." I doubt if most Canadians 'encourage it' but most would perfectly fine with a democratic 'Yes' vote for independence.

[Wild Bill]

No, as a French Canadian, I have no desire to kick Quebec out of Canada. But, if my relatives in the Gaspesie of Quebec and elsewhere in the province want to leave, then so be it. Countries come and countries go. If you think the natives of Quebec have some special say in the fate of Quebec then make that argument to the Federal Liberals and Conservatives.... but of who said they would respect Quebec leaving as a unit with a 60% 'yes' vote. The Quebec Liberal party says that Quebec is not divasable as have the PQ and the ADQ. You can start a movement to present an alternative to keeps parts of Quebec in Canada but I don't know how you'll convince Quebecers....but go ahead. As an Albertan, however, I will support Quebec leaving as a complete entity if the time ever comes and the 'Quebec issue' no longer tops the agenda for Canada.

As Argus writes "I am perfectly okay with them leaving. In fact, I encourage it." I doubt if most Canadians 'encourage it' but most would perfectly fine with a democratic 'Yes' vote for independence.

Again, you miss my point. I'm not taking a stand on the feelings of any Quebecois. Or about kicking out a province from Confederation.

You said that if Quebec separated they would not allow any partitioning of the province. When I said that the natives would not accept this you implied that the PQ would just stamp their feet and the natives would just have to respect the decision.

Again, I disagree. There would be bullets flying. Are you saying that the PQ is prepared for that and are willing to deal with it? That would be the price for insisting that Quebec is indivisible.

[oreodontist]

Again, you miss my point. I'm not taking a stand on the feelings of any Quebecois. Or about kicking out a province from Confederation.

You said that if Quebec separated they would not allow any partitioning of the province. When I said that the natives would not accept this you implied that the PQ would just stamp their feet and the natives would just have to respect the decision.

Again, I disagree. There would be bullets flying. Are you saying that the PQ is prepared for that and are willing to deal with it? That would be the price for insisting that Quebec is indivisible.

The PQ? It's also the position of every provincial party in Quebec and both the Federal Liberal and Conservative Parties....Quebec is not divisable..EVER... As stated, feel free to start a party to the contrary, run in Quebec and promise to divide Quebec...no one is stopping you.

[Wild Bill]

The PQ? It's also the position of every provincial party in Quebec and both the Federal Liberal and Conservative Parties....Quebec is not divisable..EVER... As stated, feel free to start a party to the contrary, run in Quebec and promise to divide Quebec...no one is stopping you.

I guess you simply don't want to give me an answer. Never have I indicated that I want to see Quebec divided. Or that I even care, for that matter.

Let me try again, one last time.

In your opinion, would a separatist government be prepared to deal with the natives to keep Quebec whole, even when the natives are committing armed insurrection against that government to resist having their lands becoming part of an independent Quebec?

I'm not asking how anyone 'feels' about it, or what ever demands they would make for 'respect'.

The native people have gone on record that in such a situation they WOULD be prepared to wage armed resistance!

I'm asking if Quebec separatists understand that. I'm asking if they're prepared to meet blood with blood.

[fellowtraveller]

Quebecers will decide.

I used to belive this too.

Now I think that Canadians will decide, and some of those Canadians will be residents of Quebec.