Deaths of Aboriginal Children

[Melanie_]

Non-stigmatizing shame has a greater effect in changing behavior than any court imposed penalty can. And since that is apparent the call for justice is really a call for revenge, based on false empathy and dissonance. Alcohol was a factor, yes but that does not mean that we should kill the sick spirit and grind it further into the ground. Something of this nature comes from a state of insanity. The cure for insanity isn't to treat them with another insane act, but through the sane mind present true compassion and concern for the victims - both living and dead - of this horrific event.

True justice is when a sane man willingly takes the punishment he has imposed on himself and grows from it.

That is a load of crap. I'm not a big advocate of vengence, although that might not be apparent from my previous posts. But I am an advocate of accountability. This man chose to drink. He chose to get so drunk he was incapable of making good choices on behalf of his children. Those kids had no choice but to put their trust and faith in him, and he betrayed them. There needs to be a clear message that this is unacceptable - parents' first responsibility has to be to ensure the safety and wellbeing of their children, who are vulnerable and dependent on the adults in their lives.

You are quick to dismiss the suffering of Kaydance and Santana Pauchay, in an effort to excuse their father and give him an opportunity for "growth". Say their names out loud. Reflect on what they have lost, because of their father's "insanity".

I'm curious if you are advocating that we do away with the justice system all together, and simply allow people to determine for themselves what punishment they should suffer, and how they will grow from it. How far does that logic extend.... would you be as forgiving if all those who are responsible for the residential schools insanity were to just say, "We're sorry, but now we've decided we've suffered enough and have grown from the experience"?

[nothinarian]

This guy and his wife - in my opinion are both guilty.

I often wonder why personal responsibility is not demanded.

A drunk is a drunk is a drunk - white, black or indian.

In the end - why it is he was even allowed to have kids in the house?

Where were the "elders" - those who have the wisdom to guide poor troubled souls? Drinking with him?

Too bad he did not lay down and go to sleep out there himself.

One less problem for the government to support.

Proper funding of child support?

How easy to deflect the truth of the problem - a drunk killed some kids - and turn it into a government problem.

The feds give the money to the indians and they distribute it on the reserve.

Oh, wait a minute - perhaps there was some money NOT making it to the right places?

Gimme a break.

This was not a murder? It was a drunk - doing what drunks do.

If he had been behind the wheel of a vehicle would he be getting this sympathy?

Sorry - he exercised his choices - both life choices and immediate vicinity choices. He does not deserve any sympathy. Although there will be those who believe he is a victim of society.

He is a victim all right. A victim of his own people and their crooked rulers who tolerate this type of action.

So much for the wisdom of the supposed "elder".

Dispicable all round - and now "inadequate funding" comes into the story as part of the problem? Gotta' be kidding me.

He did nothing more than kill some kids and now is receiving this sympathy.

Nice. Real nice.

Borg

http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/necessityist.html

Maybe time to make the entitlement culture an issue but in a humanitarian way - access to all social programs but no more

Enough with crooked band councils and self government -great goal but implementation not realistic in present culture

My children should no longer pay for actions of their ancestors-tough love is a b*tch but often the best remedy

[DangerMouse]

http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/necessityist.html

Maybe time to make the entitlement culture an issue but in a humanitarian way - access to all social programs but no more

Enough with crooked band councils and self government -great goal but implementation not realistic in present culture

My children should no longer pay for actions of their ancestors-tough love is a b*tch but often the best remedy

Yikes! You have kids? OH OH! Another scott peterson in the making..how does your wife even trust living with the likes of you?

[Melanie_]

Yikes! You have kids? OH OH! Another scott peterson in the making..how does your wife even trust living with the likes of you?

Do you have something useful to say, or are you just here to be insulting?

[nothinarian]

Yikes! You have kids? OH OH! Another scott peterson in the making..how does your wife even trust living with the likes of you?

Aren't we judgemental

Do you actually believe that the funds destined for improving the quality of life of aboriginals is gettign through to the people most in need

If you agree with the existing system then you believe in a corrupt system that is failing the majority

I have no beefs with the money if in fact it reached those in need - bit it isn't reaching those in need

See my point on implementation

Do you believe in an unjust system where the politically conected on reserve drive Yukons and the downtrodden live in tarpapers shacks - I may be the lesser humanitairan but I do not belive in a system that has failed those it was meant to help for decades

Tall horse indeed

[nothinarian]

Yikes! You have kids? OH OH! Another scott peterson in the making..how does your wife even trust living with the likes of you?

Nice - bring my children and my wife into this policy debate

everyone looks in the mirror - think of this post the next time you do

[nothinarian]

Do you have something useful to say, or are you just here to be insulting?

Thanks

see link on scott peterson just to clarify depth of insult

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson

I am a father of two who just spent 8 hours driving my daughter to a self-defence tournament and back today

new to this - how to you report this behaviour to moderators?

jokes are great - this involves two adorable children and a loving wife - it is not called for

[charter.rights]

That is a load of crap. I'm not a big advocate of vengence, although that might not be apparent from my previous posts. But I am an advocate of accountability. This man chose to drink. He chose to get so drunk he was incapable of making good choices on behalf of his children. Those kids had no choice but to put their trust and faith in him, and he betrayed them. There needs to be a clear message that this is unacceptable - parents' first responsibility has to be to ensure the safety and wellbeing of their children, who are vulnerable and dependent on the adults in their lives.

You are quick to dismiss the suffering of Kaydance and Santana Pauchay, in an effort to excuse their father and give him an opportunity for "growth". Say their names out loud. Reflect on what they have lost, because of their father's "insanity".

I'm curious if you are advocating that we do away with the justice system all together, and simply allow people to determine for themselves what punishment they should suffer, and how they will grow from it. How far does that logic extend.... would you be as forgiving if all those who are responsible for the residential schools insanity were to just say, "We're sorry, but now we've decided we've suffered enough and have grown from the experience"?

All crime in one form or the other is a from of insanity. So before a justice can be exercise we must first be dealing with sane and right minded people. Punishment neither works as a deterrent or as a form of rehabilitation. It doesn't even offer closure to the victim(s).

Aboriginal justice circles affect everyone. The victim, the offender their parents and friends, even in some cases their school teachers, ministers and community. Lawyers are kept out of it. It has a far better effect at reducing recidivism than the mainstream criminal justice system - that is statistically proven. And most offenders who have had a taste of the mainstream and the justice circles are quick to say that they never want to go through another justice circle in their lives. Why? Because non-stigmatizing shame cures the behavior, heals the insane thinking and ensures that there is some form of retribution that not only the victim decides, but that the offender agrees to. The victim and their family receive closure and the offender never commits another crime. That isn't idealism. It is a result of the aboriginal justice circles in place today.

Does that mean that all crimes can be tried by a justice circle? Absolutely not because one of the prerequisites is that both the offender and the victim must agree to the process. When they cannot agree then we must put them through the court system which protects offenders from facing the crime (because they get to hide behind their lawyers) but often either leaves the victim out of the process, or further victimizes them. Even it the offender receives a substantial sentence there is no closure for the victim or others directly impacted by the crime. Often sentences are not only lighter than expected but the parole rules often release the offender at serving only 1/3 of their sentence. That is hardly what I would consider justice.

Yet it isn't "justice" you are after because you had nothing to do with it - you were not directly involved or impacted by such a tragedy. All you and a lot of other Canadians want is revenge based on a false sense of apathy. If you really cared that much then how is it that not only could something like this happen in Canada but why haven't you made an attempt to help the other situations with similar circumstances? It is because revenge is instantaneous and serial. It is because you don;t really care about two children who were frozen in the cold night, or their extended family who have lost their joy forever; or their communities that suffer alongside knowing that it is only a matter of time before another tragedy rears its ugly head? Where is your advocacy for increasing the funding to the social agencies that could have acted a intermediaries? No this is just a news item that you want to use to satisfy some inner fear and rage in you own life that you have no control about. It is a useless perspective that leads you down yet another slippery slope of ignorance towards native people. When there is someone to balme you are on the band wagon, but when we hear about poor water and poor living conditions with mould and poor sanitation infecting their schools and homes, you are no where to be found. It is a false and inconsiderate point of view that has no basis on the real situation native people suffer in remote communities daily.

The load of crap is sitting in your chair in front of a computer trying to blame while ignoring all of the dis-ease and poor living conditions that led up to the tragedy. If you really care you would have researched the problem long before the children died and take some action to prevent it. I know you think it is pretty easy to sit back and complain about a sad situation. That's the lazy way. But it takes much more guts and the ability to think beyond your own prejudices in order to see the bigger picture and do something about it. However, you are a typical Canadian in that you haven't a clue what is really going on in the world, unless someone tells you about it.

[charter.rights]

Aren't we judgemental

Do you actually believe that the funds destined for improving the quality of life of aboriginals is gettign through to the people most in need

If you agree with the existing system then you believe in a corrupt system that is failing the majority

I have no beefs with the money if in fact it reached those in need - bit it isn't reaching those in need

See my point on implementation

Do you believe in an unjust system where the politically conected on reserve drive Yukons and the downtrodden live in tarpapers shacks - I may be the lesser humanitairan but I do not belive in a system that has failed those it was meant to help for decades

Tall horse indeed

While there is some level of corruption in some communities, for the most part Native band councils are over audited - so says the Auditor General Sheila Fraser. The problems lies with Indian Affairs she says because they don't do anything with the hundreds of forms that have to be submitted weekly. But even if there are some corrupt councilors you must realize that it is inherent in the system we have imposed on them. OUR corruption in our political institutions is far more prevalent.

Having a tar paper shack is still more preferable than living on the streets of our major cities. When you can tell me you have fixed that problem, then I'll join you in criticizing the living conditions on some remote reserve. Perhaps you think that vinyl siding adds to someone's quality of life and is more important that the bullets that are needed to take the next caribou? Poverty demands some hard choices and I can tell you from experience that siding, running water and drywall do not even factor into those decisions.

First Nation band councils only receive about $1600 per person per year to cover all things we take for granted in our towns and cities. Comparatively our municipal council receive about $16,000 per year in federal and provincial transfers. If you think you can turn that $1600 into $16,000 worth of services I have a pond you might want to walk on. The fact is that WE do that THEM. The reason is patently clear. If they are kept poor their are less apt to complain when we steal their land or resources if their are pre-occupied with living for the next meal.

[Melanie_]

Does that mean that all crimes can be tried by a justice circle? Absolutely not because one of the prerequisites is that both the offender and the victim must agree to the process.

The victims in this case are dead. A three year old and a one year old. How do you expect them to agree to the process you are advocating?

If you really care you would have researched the problem long before the children died and take some action to prevent it.

Now I'm responsible for the deaths of these two children? You are really going to great lengths to deflect the responsibility from the person who caused the death of Kaydance and Santana Pauchay. In truth, you know nothing about me, or what I do or don't do on a daily basis regarding the safety and security of children (all children, regardless of their race). Nice try to pass off the blame. But you haven't answered my question, so I'll ask again,

I'm curious if you are advocating that we do away with the justice system all together, and simply allow people to determine for themselves what punishment they should suffer, and how they will grow from it. How far does that logic extend.... would you be as forgiving if all those who are responsible for the residential schools insanity were to just say, "We're sorry, but now we've decided we've suffered enough and have grown from the experience"?

Edited May 4, 2008 by Melanie_

[charter.rights]

The victims in this case are dead. A three year old and a one year old. How do you expect them to agree to the process you are advocating?

Now I'm responsible for the deaths of these two children? You are really going to great lengths to deflect the responsibility from the person who caused the death of Kaydance and Santana Pauchay. In truth, you have no idea who I am, or what I do on a daily basis regarding the safety and security of children (all children, regardless of their race). Nice try to pass off the blame. But you haven't answered my question, so I'll ask again,

There are still many victims in this. The children are gone forever. The extended family are also victims as are the community.

You are as responsible for the deaths of those children as are the social services, the community and family that failed the children. The father does have a debt to pay but so do you. Your rage and your calls for revenge are in themselves criminal UNLESS you accept some responsibility for change.

[Melanie_]

There are still many victims in this. The children are gone forever. The extended family are also victims as are the community.

You are as responsible for the deaths of those children as are the social services, the community and family that failed the children. The father does have a debt to pay but so do you. Your rage and your calls for revenge are in themselves criminal UNLESS you accept some responsibility for change.

So in your mind there is no personal responsibility for anyone - everyone is equally responsible for everyone else's actions, bad or good. Are you responsible for the choices I make? Or does that only apply when it is a First Nations person's actions called into question?

My point through all of this has been that abuse, in any form, can't be excused or tolerated because of someone's race. Your attitude makes me fear for aboriginal children across the country - you see them as expendable because of their parents' problems.

[nothinarian]

The load of crap is sitting in your chair in front of a computer trying to blame while ignoring all of the dis-ease and poor living conditions that led up to the tragedy. If you really care you would have researched the problem long before the children died and take some action to prevent it. I know you think it is pretty easy to sit back and complain about a sad situation. That's the lazy way. But it takes much more guts and the ability to think beyond your own prejudices in order to see the bigger picture and do something about it. However, you are a typical Canadian in that you haven't a clue what is really going on in the world, unless someone tells you about it.

how dare you take the moral highground on this issue

we all suffer when aboriginal children die and to think otherwise is an affront to our morality

the question is - how do we get the resources in the hands of those that need it most because our present system is failing us - I live within 3 km of a reserve and see the benefits bestowed on those lucky enough to be on the right side of politics within the reserve system while those on the outside languish with substandard living conditions

It is not the necessity that i have issue with, but the failed delivery mechanism - implementation is the issue

[nothinarian]

Your rage and your calls for revenge are in themselves criminal UNLESS you accept some responsibility for change.

There is no call for revenge only as you have correctly stated the need for change

I accept responsibility for change - the question that i pose is - how is that change manifested?

We have tried self government and that has been a failed experiment - the question is - what is the next step and how do we empower first nations communites. Is it incentives to rise above the fray in terms of economic development as I believe - or is it status quo?

[charter.rights]

So in your mind there is no personal responsibility for anyone - everyone is equally responsible for everyone else's actions, bad or good. Are you responsible for the choices I make? Or does that only apply when it is a First Nations person's actions called into question?

My point through all of this has been that abuse, in any form, can't be excused or tolerated because of someone's race. Your attitude makes me fear for aboriginal children across the country - you see them as expendable because of their parents' problems.

There IS personal responsibility. But there is also communal responsibility in native communities. Those deaths did not happen in a vacuum. Alcoholism and substance abuse has a whole list of co-dependents, enablers and those who ignore what is going on. Those things in themselves are causal contributors.

In any society, we are all responsible for the attitudes promoted and protected within the society. If we don't like those attitudes then we have to change ours BEFORE we can insist on changing others.

Your attitude makes me worry about your own children and those in your community. Growing up without you taking responsibility for correcting the way they act in society makes me shutter.

[charter.rights]

There is no call for revenge only as you have correctly stated the need for change

I accept responsibility for change - the question that i pose is - how is that change manifested?

When was the last time you discussed the poor financing of native services with your MP and MPP? And when was the last time you attended a rally to protest the injustices native people are still suffering today? You could easily answer your own question if you simply started to get involved.

We have tried self government and that has been a failed experiment - the question is - what is the next step and how do we empower first nations communites. Is it incentives to rise above the fray in terms of economic development as I believe - or is it status quo?

"We have tried self government...... WE'VE done nothing of the sort. We have IMPOSED a government system modeled after our own and told them they could run it as long as they don't change the way they do things. That system - our system - is full of corruption and is ineffective.

Economic development is occurring in many reserves in spite of the government. Only the government constantly interferes and tries to undermine the ventures because money = power and they are afraid that with more money natives will hold more power and start to question the actions of a corrupt and oppressive government. The government is still engaged in colonialism and assimilation. Only there have a lot of complicated policies that hide the fact. You do realize that native people cannot access the capital that we have access to in order to start and run businesses? The government prohibits the use of land as collateral, and income on reserve is not considered "income" for credit purpose. Thus you can't have viable economic development unless you have businesses and you can't have businesses unless you have working capital for equipment and buildings.

You also realize that there are more native children in foster care today than all of those that attended residential schools in a one year period? 27,000 native children have been removed from their families on reserved and trek away to our towns and cities as foster children. 27,000! All that and they underfund child and family services on reserve by over 70%. And did you know what the number one reason that native children are removed form their homes? It isn't abuse. It isn't neglect. It isn't because their homes are unsafe. IT IS for poverty! We underfund their reserves. We underfund their education. We underfund their social services. And then we steal their children! All in the hope of making them like us.

So what would you do if you were abused by the state, oppressed and had your children subjected to cultural genocide, all the while ignorant vitriolic people blaming you for your own lot in life. Years ago, natives couldn't even hire a lawyer to fight a land rights issue. Today the government simply ties up any claims or complaints in court or in INAC for decades until they give up or run out of money. So the youth of today are taking to the streets instead and taking back stolen lands, and preventing anyone from going any further with development on their land. What is the government's response to that? They jail the Chiefs and leaders of these movements and make political prisoners out of them to protect the illegal actions of the corporations who ignore treaty and aboriginal rights. All in the face of the Supreme Court ruling that says WE must consult natives and accommodate their interests BEFORE we start exploring or developing their land. We ignore the law and then arrest them for trying to uphold it.....

Where were you when all of this was going on? Living 3km from a reserve you say? My bet is you have ignored what is going on there because you figure it isn't your problem...right?

Edited May 4, 2008 by charter.rights

[nothinarian]

i]"We have tried self government......[/i] WE'VE done nothing of the sort. We have IMPOSED a government system modeled after our own and told them they could run it as long as they don't change the way they do things. That system - our system - is full of corruption and is ineffective.

Economic development is occurring in many reserves in spite of the government. Only the government constantly interferes and tries to undermine the ventures because money = power and they are afraid that with more money natives will hold more power and start to question the actions of a corrupt and oppressive government. The government is still engaged in colonialism and assimilation. Only there have a lot of complicated policies that hide the fact.You also realize that there are more native children in foster care today than all of those that attended residential schools in a one year period? 27,000 native children have been removed from their families on reserved and trek away to our towns and cities as foster children. 27,000! All that and they underfund child and family services on reserve by over 70%. And did you know what the number one reason that native children are removed form their homes? It isn't abuse. It isn't neglect. It isn't because their homes are unsafe. IT IS for poverty! We underfund their reserves. We underfund their education. We underfund their social services. And then we steal their children! All in the hope of making them like us.

So what would you do if you were abused by the state, oppressed and had your children subjected to cultural genocide, all the while ignorant vitriolic people blaming you for your own lot in life. Years ago, natives couldn't even hire a lawyer to fight a land rights issue. Today the government simply ties up any claims or complaints in court or in INAC for decades until they give up or run out of money. So the youth of today are taking to the streets instead and taking back stolen lands, and preventing anyone from going any further with development on their land. What is the government's response to that? They jail the Chiefs and leaders of these movements and make political prisoners out of them to protect the illegal actions of the corporations who ignore treaty and aboriginal rights. All in the face of the Supreme Court ruling that says WE must consult natives and accommodate their interests BEFORE we start exploring or developing their land. We ignore the law and then arrest them for trying to uphold it.....

Where were you when all of this was going on? Living 3km from a reserve you say? My bet is you have ignored what is going on there because you figure it isn't your problem...right?

I grew up spending alot of my spare time on reserve, still have many friends that are aboriginal, and have an aboriginal business partner

And you agree with land title - looks like you and Tom Flanagan agree - Mr. Harpers advisor is on the same page - who'd have thunk it - except he sees it as a means to an end - you obviously have different ends but you may want to research your means - see 2004 CPC platform

Your ponderings from on high are comical - get in the trenches with the rest of us - you have obviously never set foot on reserve or talked to the aboriginals one-on-one about their issues because many of the grassroots agree that their democratic system which they fought for and won, is flawed

At least we both agree that democratic system on reserve is not working - will you now go further to agree that corruption must be addressed so we can get money into the hands of those who need it?

You do realize that native people cannot access the capital that we have access to in order to start and run businesses?

Wrong -For ec dev and access to capital see following site with 38 references for ec dev programs that nobody but aboriginals can access, which I am supportive of but only if they provides bang for buck

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ps/ecd/tok/abo_e.html

When was the last time you discussed the poor financing of native services with your MP and MPP? And when was the last time you attended a rally to protest the injustices native people are still suffering today? You could easily answer your own question if you simply started to get involved.

Protesting what - the mispent billions of taxpayers dollars that go into a corrupt system and benefit disproportuionatley those in political power on reserve - if letting your MP know of this injustice to those most deprived on reserve is a form of protest then I have done my duty

[charter.rights]

I grew up spending alot of my spare time on reserve, still have many friends that are aboriginal, and have an aboriginal business partner

And you agree with land title - looks like you and Tom Flanagan agree - Mr. Harpers advisor is on the same page - who'd have thunk it - except he sees it as a means to an end - you obviously have different ends but you may want to research your means - see 2004 CPC platform

Your ponderings from on high are comical - get in the trenches with the rest of us - you have obviously never set foot on reserve or talked to the aboriginals one-on-one about their issues because many of the grassroots agree that their democratic system which they fought for and won, is flawed

At least we both agree that democratic system on reserve is not working - will you now go further to agree that corruption must be addressed so we can get money into the hands of those who need it?

Wrong -For ec dev and access to capital see following site with 38 references for ec dev programs that nobody but aboriginals can access, which I am supportive of but only if they provides bang for buck

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ps/ecd/tok/abo_e.html

Protesting what - the mispent billions of taxpayers dollars that go into a corrupt system and benefit disproportuionatley those in political power on reserve - if letting your MP know of this injustice to those most deprived on reserve is a form of protest then I have done my duty

Back to reality. You do realize that only $1600 per person per year gets transferred to the reserve for all band administration, social, education and health needs? If you can manufacture corruption from that then I invite you to walk on my pond. $1600 x 500 people. Not very much once you deduct salaries, and overhead from all of that. The only reason it appears there is disproportion is that some of those people are working for the band earning a below poverty level wage and have some disposable cash to spend on things while the remainder do not. There is very little corruption generally that takes place and because they are so heavily audited it is unlikely they go more than a year before getting caught.

I work on reserves, dummy. I consult with native people every day and earn a 6 figure income from promoting and implementing native economic development. I have daily business with a number of band governments and am involved in helping them start up their own financial institutions. I also work with an aboriginal capital corporation finding ways to invest in aboriginal investment, away from the federal government. You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to the realities of reserve life or the people who inhabit them.

As far as the stuff referenced on the INAC website, it may look impressive to see all those agencies using monies slated for natives. You realize that some of those agencies suck money from the $8 billion a year INAC budget.....As well, most of those agencies have the same criteria as banks and capital is not available unless natives have a credit rating and collateral. As for Aboriginal Business Canada, it once provided a reasonable source for capital but has little money left for small business. Mostly the money from ABC goes towards band projects that do little for local employment but get spent in neighbouring communities.

Bank programs listed on that site require the band to underwrite all mortgages and loan 100%, which means any free money within the band system gets frozen until all mortgages and loans are paid. There is absolutely no risk to any bank and the underwriting precludes the band being able to generate its own housing industry, or economic development. CMHC once held mortgages on reserve but they put some many reserves in an endless debt that they will be paying for the next 100 years and still not make a dent in it.

Land on reserve is held in common and should never be titled. The reason the Tories want to create a title system is so they can steal it by forcing natives to sell their lands. It has nothing to do with helping natives and has everything to do with advancing the colonialism and assimilation process. However, my native business friends have devised a way where they can lend money and secure the loan directly from the client. INAC tried to stand in the way of that at one point but a threat of a lawsuit by some renowned lawyers made them rethink their position. That at least is one hurdle out of our way.

So I suggest that you go back to your friends and talk to them directly about what we are discussing, instead of assuming you know what their lives are all about. The reality is that you don't know beans about the problems, or the solutions and you need to spend a whole lot more time listening than spouting off that you hold the answers.

[DangerMouse]

Nothinarian uses Flannagan as a resource? Thanks for your info CR, which is something many whites don't even see. The Min of Indian Affairs, all the Deputy Ministers, all the INAC buildings in big cities like Vancouver and Edmonton; who all employ non-aboriginal people with that huge billion dollar budget. SOme of the freakin dorks think the indians have it good and are rich are idiots...just look on some of the reserves...Third World conditions....The Right Wingers are a bunch of fools

[DangerMouse]

Nothinarian uses Flannagan as a resource? Thanks for your info CR, which is something many whites don't even see. The Min of Indian Affairs, all the Deputy Ministers, all the INAC buildings in big cities like Vancouver and Edmonton; who all employ non-aboriginal people with that huge billion dollar budget. SOme of the freakin dorks think the indians have it good and are rich are idiots...just look on some of the reserves...Third World conditions....The Right Wingers are a bunch of fools

[nothinarian]

I work on reserves, dummy. I consult with native people every day and earn a 6 figure income from promoting and implementing native economic development.

okay i guess bragging about your six figure salary while discussing aboriginal poverty seems a bit bizarre but hey - its your six figure salary so scream from the rooftops

on ec dev - from what I see human resources is the key issue not the availability of programs - seems best laid plans often collapse when companies are up and running - at least that is the local experience - maybe we need more six figure salaried employees to help them

Edited May 4, 2008 by nothinarian

[charter.rights]

okay i guess bragging about your six figure salary while discussing aboriginal poverty seems a bit bizarre but hey - its your six figure salary so scream from the rooftops

on ec dev - from what I see human resources is the key issue not the availability of programs - seems best laid plans often collapse when companies are up and running - at least that is the local experience - maybe we need more six figure salaried employees to help them

Wrong again! There are plenty of workers - even cheap labour. The problem for their businesses as well as our own is cash flow. When you need a piece of equipment and you have to rent it instead of being able to buy it, it will crunch you cash flow.

The thing is that my six figure income generates millions of dollars in revenue. It is hardly obscene given that fact that CEOs and CFOs of major corporations tke home millions for sitting on their asses. And when the economic development does take off it won't be stopped by the banks or the government. Locking in that kind of revenue will boost the economy forever. (BTW most of the money I do earn comes from non-natives living close to the reserves. They invest in what we are doing because it benefits them in the long run.

Howmuch do you think the average INAC employee earns sunshine?

[nothinarian]

Wrong again! There are plenty of workers - even cheap labour. The problem for their businesses as well as our own is cash flow. When you need a piece of equipment and you have to rent it instead of being able to buy it, it will crunch you cash flow.

The thing is that my six figure income generates millions of dollars in revenue. It is hardly obscene given that fact that CEOs and CFOs of major corporations tke home millions for sitting on their asses. And when the economic development does take off it won't be stopped by the banks or the government. Locking in that kind of revenue will boost the economy forever. (BTW most of the money I do earn comes from non-natives living close to the reserves. They invest in what we are doing because it benefits them in the long run.

Howmuch do you think the average INAC employee earns sunshine?

don't know or don't care - why is this relevant - lets stick to your six figure income - do you mind if i call you six fig

We have one of largest reserves in east and business after business after business and millions of dollars have been squandered including a truck stop nearby (shut down)

Plans looked great but implementation failed - my take is lack of qualified management personnel-Now in thrid party management and broke

heck maybe you earned your six figure income on this project and lost taxpayers 2.2 million in the proces - congrats from taxpayers six fig and keep up your squandering of taxpayers dollars

Not that I disagree with the concept of aboriginal ec dev six fig just have seen too many failures to have much confidence in results being achieved six fig

Re: Human resource development there are ample opportunites for training with generous educational allowances so I would like to see more first nations training because this is one of the key areas where resources need to be directed six fig

And could explain relevance of your six figure salary again - I still don't get why you would include your ample personal income in a debate about aboriginal poverty

Thanks six fig and just a hint - you may never want to brag about your six figure income on a public forum again when you are discussing poverty

Like a doe in the headlights six fig - bang (or twang for those that are traditional hunters)

[charter.rights]

don't know or don't care - why is this relevant - lets stick to your six figure income - do you mind if i call you six fig

We have one of largest reserves in east and business after business after business and millions of dollars have been squandered including a truck stop nearby (shut down)

Plans looked great but implementation failed - my take is lack of qualified management personnel-Now in thrid party management and broke

heck maybe you earned your six figure income on this project and lost taxpayers 2.2 million in the proces - congrats from taxpayers six fig and keep up your squandering of taxpayers dollars

Not that I disagree with the concept of aboriginal ec dev six fig just have seen too many failures to have much confidence in results being achieved six fig

Re: Human resource development there are ample opportunites for training with generous educational allowances so I would like to see more first nations training because this is one of the key areas where resources need to be directed six fig

And could explain relevance of your six figure salary again - I still don't get why you would include your ample personal income in a debate about aboriginal poverty

Thanks six fig and just a hint - you may never want to brag about your six figure income on a public forum again when you are discussing poverty

Like a doe in the headlights six fig - bang (or twang for those that are traditional hunters)

Hey sunshine. Nice ad hominem. Too bad you can't debate the real subject. But hey being wrong must really chink your ego.

[nothinarian]

Hey sunshine. Nice ad hominem. Too bad you can't debate the real subject. But hey being wrong must really chink your ego.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

QUOTE(charter.rights @ May 3 2008, 07:26 PM)

The load of crap is sitting in your chair in front of a computer trying to blame while ignoring all of the dis-ease and poor living conditions that led up to the tragedy. If you really care you would have researched the problem long before the children died and take some action to prevent it. I know you think it is pretty easy to sit back and complain about a sad situation. That's the lazy way. But it takes much more guts and the ability to think beyond your own prejudices in order to see the bigger picture and do something about it. However, you are a typical Canadian in that you haven't a clue what is really going on in the world, unless someone tells you about it.

and you have the audacity to call me on AH after your response to Melanie above

nice try six fig but people in your income class and people in my income class will always have differing views

I see corruption , misspending and a broken system firsthand and think it must be fixed for the future of first nations in Canada

Your view will not obviously change as you think throwing more money at the issue is the answer. You are part of the system, and to admit fault would admit that maybe your life is an exercise in futility and that you are part of a broken system that wastes tyaxpayers dollars

Rose coloured glasses don`t work well in the trenches where I work - must be more effective in your ivory tower - must be an issue of perspective and the people who do not share yours being ``loads of crap``

Good luck six fig - I truly hope you do succeed - it would be good for Canada

Don`t forget to cue DM to sling viceral insults on your behalf