RCMP raids Tory party headquarters

jdobbin · May 2, 2008

You mean like there's little doubt you are propagandizing for the Liberal Party?

Partisan support is not against the rules whereas insults are.

Canadians, by and large, are not terribly well-informed about anything. They've seen the big screaming headlines from the media and there really isn't anything for the Tories to do to convince them otherwise. That's what you and your party are counting on in pushing this so much.
If the judge finds what they did legal that will change, of course.

Yes, that's a good strategy: call the electorate not terribly well informed. If the public isn't getting the right information, it's because the Tories aren't communicating it. The filtering of information to media they find friendly or couching their terms by calling the raid a "visit" looks amateurish and desperate.

I'm sure the attacks are on the ready for any judge that that does find it illegal.

Oh give it a rest. I wonder if Greg could make violins play a sad song whenever you post so we know how dreadful the hardship is you labour under.

And yet another attempt at insulting.

jdobbin · May 2, 2008

Not really, though I can see where your party feels this is a good spin on things.
The RCMP will help any government department or agency to analyze hard drives where there is any suspicion of wrongdoing, and where that department or agency feels it does not have the capability to do so itself.

Actually, the spin came from the Tories who said that it was Elections Canada and not the RCMP that were investigating. It is obvious now that the RCMP expertise is also involved.

It is curious, however, that Elections Canada does not seem to believe its IT people are capable of analysing a hard drive. I know our own Internal Security people like to brag about their abilities, and how they were trained by the RCMP.
But if you want to help keep things in the papers, then you simply send an email to the RCMP asking for their assistance - even though your own IT people are perfectly capable of doing it themselves, then you breathlessly notify the press that the RCMP will be going over these things.

I think the article is clear that RCMP involvement was listed in court papers as part of chain of evidence.

Michael Bluth · May 2, 2008

The CPC couldn't plead ignorance, like the Liberals Pretended to do, so, the CPC has to attack, but the strategy has put them in the spotlight...

Yet Steph Dion and the gang who can't shoot straight still can't take a lead in the polls. It's yesterday's news.

What makes you think I'm a man?

Don't know, don't care. Just used your terminology. Your semantic hair-splitting is just symptomatic of your hypocrisy in using the term 'man enough'.

Your silence on the issue is evidence that you aren't 'man enough' to earn your own respect. :lol:

Edited May 2, 2008 by Michael Bluth

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

Yet Steph Dion and the gang who can't shoot straight still can't take a lead in the polls. .

But they have in the all important battleground of quebec which spells trouble for Mr. H - he may have to play that silly nation card again, and again, and again..... which erodes his base elsewhere or maye the $ card - ditto

Tough for him to find a strategy to bridge Quebec/West now that ethical high ground is crumbling

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

Tough for him to find a strategy to bridge Quebec/West now that ethical high ground is crumbling.

The crumbling of the moral high ground is only in the wet dreams of the anti-CPC crowd. Because of the in-and-out situation? An arcane legal battle that is far from envelopes full of cash given to party insiders.

As was stated in the last Ipsos poll, link on the polling thread:

A drumbeat of gloomy forecasts about the economy and escalating allegations about the governing Conservatives' election financing irregularities have so far failed to break the deadlock in public support among the federal political parties, a new Ipsos Reid poll reveals.

It appears that the next election will be decided during the campaign. Harper and his seasoned campaign team versus Dion and the retreads from 2004 and 2006. Wouldn't like those odds if I were a Liberal...

Wild Bill · May 4, 2008

The crumbling of the moral high ground is only in the wet dreams of the anti-CPC crowd. Because of the in-and-out situation? An arcane legal battle that is far from envelopes full of cash given to party insiders.
As was stated in the last Ipsos poll, link on the polling thread:

It appears that the next election will be decided during the campaign. Harper and his seasoned campaign team versus Dion and the retreads from 2004 and 2006. Wouldn't like those odds if I were a Liberal...

I hope your attitude is not typical of the Tory caucus, Michael. I was a salesman for years and one thing you learn early if you hope to be successful is that you should never take your customers for granted.

Yes, Dion is a "nob"! Yes, the Tories are going to run a much more successful campaign with more money and an obviously more competent leader.

That doesn't mean that people will vote Tory because they like them! It only means that Dion and his crew smell worse! Harper already has been tarred as arrogant in the public eye. It doesn't matter if the perception is deserved. It's there and you have to consider it as a factor.

A smart pool player knows he should do more than just sink the shot. He should also try to leave himself in good shape for the NEXT shot! If people vote Tory only because the Liberals are so bad this time around and the Tories have given the impression they're taking the support for granted it could cause a backfire NEXT election!

After all, Dion will certainly be gone. The next opponent is likely to be FAR more formidable!

I realize that politics rarely attracts rocket scientists but SOMEBODY should think beyond only the immediate next move on the chessboard!

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the Liberals have been the Natural Governing Party...

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

name='Michael Bluth' date='May 3 2008, 11:32 PM' post='309714']
The crumbling of the moral high ground is only in the wet dreams of the anti-CPC crowd. Because of the in-and-out situation? An arcane legal battle that is far from envelopes full of cash given to party insiders

Anti-CPC crowd is not the two-thirds of population that don't believe them (even though poll IMHO has iherent bias resulting in some skew) so in public opinion moral high ground is lost

As was stated in the last Ipsos poll, link on the polling thread:
It appears that the next election will be decided during the campaign. Harper and his seasoned campaign team versus Dion and the retreads from 2004 and 2006. Wouldn't like those odds if I were a Liberal...

Never underestimate - Chretien was a master of lowering expectations - moral high-ground is lost, economy tanking and deficits could de-rail that train. In that case Dion and especially retreads, as Liberals have a much deeper bench , could pull off a minority

As a fiscal conservative I would give them a chance especialy since Flaherty is a record spender, brought in inefficient GST tax cuts and may take us into deficit spending. Also recent history shows us that both here and south of the border the only true fiscal conservatives(federally), albeit probably by necessity, come from Democrats and Liberals

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

Anti-CPC crowd is not the two-thirds of population that don't believe them (even though poll IMHO has iherent bias resulting in some skew) so in public opinion moral high ground is lost
Never underestimate - Chretien was a master of lowering expectations - moral high-ground is lost, economy tanking and deficits could de-rail that train. In that case Dion and especially retreads, as Liberals have a much deeper bench , could pull off a minority

As a fiscal conservative I would give them a chance especialy since Flaherty is a record spender, brought in inefficient GST tax cuts and may take us into deficit spending. Also recent history shows us that both here and south of the border the only true fiscal conservatives(federally), albeit probably by necessity, come from Democrats and Liberals.

Your recognition of the inherent problems with the poll concedes that the moral high ground has not been *lost*.

The economy isn't going to tank that badly, as I provided proof which you completely ignored. Agreed a deficit would hurt a lot, but it won't happen.

The retreads are the campaign team. David Smith as co-chair? The Ontario *mastermind* behind the LPC's great results in Ontario in '04 and '06. Mark Marissen as co-chair? Produced middling results in BC last election, but he headed Dion's leadership team. No strong connection to the party east of the Rockies. Bill Cunningham, soon to be a third time loser in Burnaby-Douglas? But he was also part of the leadership team. *Beer and popcorn* Scott Reid? Played a significant role in the loss with his condescending comments, but he is still representing the party and speaking publicly. There isn't a retread heading up the Quebec campaign yet. But that's because no one will take the job!

If the GST cut was so inefficient why haven't the Liberals promised to raise it?

Agreed that the Liberals and Democrats acted out of necessity. Paul Martin proved his true fiscal credentials with his two budgets as PM. Large spending increases, not fiscally conservative at all.

Yes, Dion is a "nob"! Yes, the Tories are going to run a much more successful campaign with more money and an obviously more competent leader.
That doesn't mean that people will vote Tory because they like them! It only means that Dion and his crew smell worse! Harper already has been tarred as arrogant in the public eye. It doesn't matter if the perception is deserved. It's there and you have to consider it as a factor.

A smart pool player knows he should do more than just sink the shot. He should also try to leave himself in good shape for the NEXT shot! If people vote Tory only because the Liberals are so bad this time around and the Tories have given the impression they're taking the support for granted it could cause a backfire NEXT election!

After all, Dion will certainly be gone. The next opponent is likely to be FAR more formidable!

I realize that politics rarely attracts rocket scientists but SOMEBODY should think beyond only the immediate next move on the chessboard!

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the Liberals have been the Natural Governing Party...

Agreed on your characterization of Dion, that the CPC will run a more successful campaign and obviously have a more competent leader.

How many people voted Liberal because they really liked them? I don't recall that ever being a major campaign theme. "Vote for us because you like us." I do recall three early election calls to take immediate advantage of the weakness of the opposition. I do recall *scary* *scary* *scary* over and over and over again. Appears that people voted Liberal during the Chretien era because the opposition smelled worse.

Your pool player analogy isn't applicable as it ignores the facts. Political leaders cannot afford to think two or three elections ahead. Was Chretien running in '93, '97, or '00 with an eye to the next election? No way. He probably wouldn't have lasted to the next he election with a loss in '93 to the PCs with the lows the PCs hit at the end of Mulroney's time in office. He *definitely* wouldn't have lasted to the next election with a loss in '97. He ran again in '00 to spite the heir apparent in his party ... definitely not a move of a leader with an eye to the future of his party.

Agreed Harper does not have the best public image. But that image coincides with his strong leadership ratings. Harper is comfortable in his own skin and doesn't need to be loved. He hasn't dithered, trying to please everyone while not really pleasing anyone as his predecessor in the PMO did.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Michael Bluth

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

name='Michael Bluth' date='May 4 2008, 08:22 AM' post='309741']
Your recognition of the inherent problems with the poll concedes that the moral high ground has not been *lost*.

Skewed but still does not bode well even if it is 55 or 60 percent instead of 66

Not that I care because I am not the partisan one in the conversation - are you saying that Cadman, in and out, transparency issues, etc... has not tainted CPC and exact same strategy can be used as 2006 - Liberals crooks/Conservative clean - I would recommned against it

If the GST cut was so inefficient why haven't the Liberals promised to raise it?

Need I answer this - politics 101

I didn't disagree that it was a vote getter and good political strategy but so was denying the Jewish refugees asylum by King in WW2 - doing the wrong thing because it is politically strategic doesn't make it right

Agreed that the Liberals and Democrats acted out of necessity. Paul Martin proved his true fiscal credentials with his two budgets as PM. Large spending increases, not fiscally conservative at all.

So you are in my corner on big spenders - try saying it out loud - Flaherty and Martin are both big spenders and I don't like it as a taxpayer

-

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

Not that I care because I am not the partisan one in the conversation - are you saying that Cadman, in and out, transparency issues, etc... has not tainted CPC and exact same strategy can be used as 2006 - Liberals crooks/Conservative clean - I would recommned against it.

How do you define 'tainted'? Those issues obviously haven't helped, but I don't think they will be deciding factors in the election. If they could have been Dion should have forced an election over an of the issues.

Liberals crooks/Conservative clean wasn't THE Conservative strategy in the election. If it was the focus of the campaign, the Liberals would have done much better than they did. If it was you wouldn't have seen the GST cut promised on the second day of the campaign. The strategy was to provide an alternate vision for governing the country. A vision that proved a contrast to the unfocused Martin regime and dealt with the *scary* *scary* *scary* issue. Yes, the accountability act was part of the five priorities. It was only one of them.

doing the wrong thing because it is politically strategic doesn't make it right

Expedience wins out unfortunately in politics. In 1997 Jean Chretien called an early election that ignored the serious problems Manitobans were dealing with as a result of the devastating Red River flood. Preston Manning did what he felt was the 'right thing' and did not make it a campaign issue. A politically strategic move to make an issue of the Liberals indifference to the concerns of Manitobans would likely have swung enough seats away from the Liberals to hold them to a minority. A minority would have been the death knell for Chretien and Paul Martin would have become leader four or five years earlier than he did. Something that probably wouldn't have been good for the Liberals.

So you are in my corner on big spenders - try saying it out loud - Flaherty and Martin are both big spenders and I don't like it as a taxpayer

I will say that Flaherty is no where near the big spender that Ralph Goodale was, or would have continued to be, had the Liberals won in 2006.

jdobbin · May 4, 2008

So you are in my corner on big spenders - try saying it out loud - Flaherty and Martin are both big spenders and I don't like it as a taxpayer

Flahery has outdone the Liberals in two budgets and blows past his promised goal of limiting federal spending.

http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2813

The budget proposes that program spending will increase to $208.1-billion in the next fiscal year, which is a modest 3.4 per cent rise. Unfortunately, the Conservatives have failed to control spending during their first two years in office. When the Liberals left office total program spending stood at $175-billion (2005/06 fiscal year). In fiscal 2007/08, the current year ending on March 31, the federal government’s annual outlays will – for the first time – break the 200-billion-dollar mark.
The Conservative government’s first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006. Yet, at the end of that year government receipts had instead ballooned an astounding 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount will be 6.85 per cent.

“Under Mr. Flaherty, the size of the federal government has grown by an astounding 14.8 per cent. How is this fiscally conservative or even ‘responsible,’” Williamson asked rhetorically. “As prime minister, Paul Martin grew the federal government by 14 per cent over two years. Amazingly, the Conservatives have bested Liberal spending. This is a spend-thrift government.”

“The government’s overall expenditure level is disappointing. Spending growth has repeatedly exceeded the minister’s own target, which is the economic growth rate. As a result, Canada will pay down less debt in the future,” said Williamson.

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

Flahery has outdone the Liberals in two budgets and blows past his promised goal of limiting federal spending.
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2813

Yeah ... when Andrew Coyne goes after Flaherty you know he must be guilty as charged

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

Yeah ... when Andrew Coyne goes after Flaherty you know he must be guilty as charged.

Just as Coyne went after Martin as PM. A fact conveniently ignored in the post you replied to. Seeing as you aren't a partisan one and all.

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

Just as Coyne went after Martin as PM. A fact conveniently ignored in the post you replied to. Seeing as you aren't a partisan one and all.

see my previous post re: taking both Martin and Flaherty to task

Nice try on the partisanship and welcome you to catch me if you can but I do try to keep it to policy debate

I also find political strategy fascinating so will offer opinions should not be too slanted

I will vote for whichever party I feel has the best platform and if they are caught with hands in till see no problem switching to an alternative

So you are in my corner on big spenders - try saying it out loud - Flaherty and Martin are both big spenders and I don't like it as a taxpayer

Two posts ago I said clearly that they were both big spenders and asked you to admit the same

Baby steps - just admit that Flaherty might be not as fiscally conservative as you had hoped

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

I also find political strategy fascinating so will offer opinions should not be too slanted.
I will vote for whichever party I feel has the best platform and if they are caught with hands in till see no problem switching to an alternative

Two posts ago I said clearly that they were both big spenders and asked you to admit the same.

When the Conservatives get caught with their hands in the till let me know.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Michael Bluth

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

When the Conservatives get caught with their hands in the till let me know.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/299113

Law of averages with Quebec political culture is that somebody will recieve political favours for financial gain

Liberals got caught and were thrown out

Conservatives may or may not get caught but it will occur and as evidenced above has likely already started

Don't get me wrong - I hope Mr. H cleans it up but I'm not optimistic as you can see

Reality bites

Michael Bluth · May 4, 2008

Law of averages with Quebec political culture is that somebody will recieve political favours for financial gain
Liberals got caught and were thrown out

Conservatives may or may not get caught but it will occur and as evidenced above has likely already started

Don't get me wrong - I hope Mr. H cleans it up but I'm not optimistic as you can see

Reality bites

Your definition of 'hand in the till' is an interesting one.

Most people would assume it has something to do with financial malfeasance. If a three plus month old story on an alleged misuse of power is the best you can come up with on having their hand in the till then I think the Conservatives are keeping their hands pretty clean.

nothinarian · May 4, 2008

Your definition of 'hand in the till' is an interesting one.
Most people would assume it has something to do with financial malfeasance. If a three plus month old story on an alleged misuse of power is the best you can come up with on having their hand in the till then I think the Conservatives are keeping their hands pretty clean.

Probably wrong to accuse Liberals of having hand in the till - I believe they needed to be punsihed but I do not think elected members benefitted fiancially - better characterization might be financial gain based on political influence or partisanship -or maybe membership has its priveleges

I nor you can in fact prove there was an attempt at financial gain from political favours in Mr Soudas case but the issue was before the courts and arranging a meeting was entirely inappropriate

lets look at the flip side - Do you think that they were motivated by financial loss ?

jdobbin · July 15, 2008

Hmm, I wonder if the Tories will be charged if they are found to have overspent.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The Conservative party may be on the hook for $1.3 million in election campaign advertising expenses that it attempted to attribute to candidates in 2006, Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand told MPs today.
Mayrand said he has not yet decided where the radio and TV expenses will be allotted following an investigation and a Federal Court trial of the advertising controversy.

Edited July 15, 2008 by jdobbin

Wild Bill · July 15, 2008

Hmm, I wonder if the Tories will be charged if they are found to have overspent.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Chump change! Gagliano lost more than that falling out of his pockets onto the floors of those Montreal restaurants!

I don't know if the Tories could ever equal the Liberal record!

And to think they did it all without a single elected Liberal being charged...wow! That's immunity!

jdobbin · July 15, 2008

Chump change! Gagliano lost more than that falling out of his pockets onto the floors of those Montreal restaurants!
I don't know if the Tories could ever equal the Liberal record!

And to think they did it all without a single elected Liberal being charged...wow! That's immunity!

Clever. However, the Tories indicated in the campaign that they were different. That reputation will be in tatters if the RCMP has to charge someone in the party for violating the Elections Act.

Fortunata · July 15, 2008

Chump change! Gagliano lost more than that falling out of his pockets onto the floors of those Montreal restaurants!
I don't know if the Tories could ever equal the Liberal record!

And to think they did it all without a single elected Liberal being charged...wow! That's immunity!

Cons' seemingly only argument ... but the Liberals...!

How about the Conservatives play by the rules instead of trying to blame the Liberals for their own lack of ethics and procedures?

Wild Bill · July 15, 2008

Cons' seemingly only argument ... but the Liberals...!
How about the Conservatives play by the rules instead of trying to blame the Liberals for their own lack of ethics and procedures?

Both you and jdobbin miss my point. ALL politicians of ALL parties are suspect! Dumping on the incumbent is mere partisanship.

A pox on all their houses. If by your posts you're trying to imply we should not vote Tory you're not being very logical. Sure they smell! They ALL smell!

As Canadians we HAVE NO honourable choices! All we can do is pick the one that smells the least. Right now, the Liberals are still far ahead on the "Reek-Meter".

Fortunata · July 15, 2008

Both you and jdobbin miss my point. ALL politicians of ALL parties are suspect! Dumping on the incumbent is mere partisanship.
A pox on all their houses. If by your posts you're trying to imply we should not vote Tory you're not being very logical. Sure they smell! They ALL smell!

As Canadians we HAVE NO honourable choices! All we can do is pick the one that smells the least. Right now, the Liberals are still far ahead on the "Reek-Meter".

I agree with you on all the points except the last one. Once you dip your toe in the smell you cannot claim morality only because you didn't go up to the ankle.

jdobbin · July 15, 2008

A pox on all their houses. If by your posts you're trying to imply we should not vote Tory you're not being very logical. Sure they smell! They ALL smell!

You can always run yourself if you are the only honest person left.

Edited July 16, 2008 by jdobbin