Degeneration Of Morals

[KrustyKidd]

I thought I would start a thread here using a statement by a respected member. He feels it is valid in this context but I feel that people are people wherever they are. Subsequently, if true , I believe that it transends societies and is common to all the West if not the world.

Lonius reffering to the USA:

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

Comon. Back this one up.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I do not read or post here very often, but I thank you for giving this idea the gravity it deserves.

It is the classic human causal argument. Individualism must be respected, yet it has been 'common goals' that has allowed mankind to flourish. Only greed can usurp the common goal of survival, and only by acknowledging the needs of all can equality come to the fore.

[KrustyKidd]

I believe that man is a pack animal. Like a dog he functions very well in small groups. I use the Mormons and Tribes of all types as an example of sucess.

Nations the size of Canada, Egypt, Russia and the USA are a relative new thing. Individualism although not lost has taken on a new meaning - privacy.

In a community of any city you will find people sticking together and helping one another. To say that these people are selfish is wrong, they are humans same as you and I.

Now to the point. You singled out the USA. Let me single out any small village in the Congo. When there is a flood in Kansas and people have lost their homes, providing that the people of this small village in the Congo know about it, how many are giving freely of their meager goods?

Also, would their lack of generosity be construed as selfishness?

I guess the point is that people are people. Large governments, if sucessful are (out of necessity) discompassionate and following a laid down set of rules. To make them up on a day to day basis is to open the door for rampant favoritism, dishonesty and dictatorship. As well, a government is not a person but an entity on it's own. It has it's own mouth, muscle and brain. It has survival instincts and is very much like a human although it distances itself from day to day problems of humans. It has a job like any other person, to serve those who it represents.

A country is made up of many small communties. They all love each other and are generous to one another but like those in the Congo have trouble relating to a world so distanced from themselves. That is where the government comes in.

Now, in answer to your point, I think that it is the government that is the one that you should be directing your attitude towards, not the people. Before you do however, remember that the government is sworn to do what is in the interst of the people that it serves. Not a disassociated people a world away.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Let's take Angola (or the Congo) for example. The large corporations of the US (and thereby the gov't through lobby pressure) covet it's natural resources. The US gov't will support (whichever one is 'moderate')a brutal dictator that through arms and intelligence will guarantee profits for a US based company. The people will be subjugated to 'terror' to relinquish farmland in view of 'the greater good'.

Terrorized, tortured and murdered to move off of their farmland, how many do you expect would worry about a flood in Kansas?

Please round off your answer to the nearest 1.

[KrustyKidd]

I'll get this off my chest first then move on:

The US gov't will support (whichever one is 'moderate')a brutal dictator that through arms and intelligence will guarantee profits for a US based company.

And if they do not support anybody and leave the place alone everybody lives in harmony or does an even more brutal dictator move in and untempered by any western influence simply strarve all into submission?

[Michael Hardner]

I think the US has been acting far more conscientuously of late and this is one thing that ticks me off about leftists - they will not admit this.

It seems to me there was LESS outcry from the left when the US was more invoved in dirty tricks in Latin America etc. etc. You can say that it's because the cold war is over, but the fact is that the US is cleaning up their act.

It seems to me that people are more angry about the past than what is happening now. I was against the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on principle, but let's face it: they were awful regimes that deserved to fall and these places now have a future.

We should be paying more attention to what's going on in the emerging countries, like the former Soviet states as these are hotspots of the future.

[KrustyKidd]

I think the US has been acting far more conscientuously of late

Oh yes they have. I posted a while back on this to no end. To shorten it up it came down to how it used to be the Cold War and all and a legitimate Communist Threat. Suddenly it vanished and we are left with all these third world countries that are non alligned. Loose Cannons with a lot of potential terrorist recruits.

At first the US continued with the same old ways and figured that they had gotten a peace dividend but such was not the reality. A whole new way of doing business has emerged. Meanwhile, like you said the Left is trying to make the transition slightly behind the Bush Administration.

In the old days Afganistan would be a parking lot and Iraq would be empty lot next door waiting to be paved. Instead they are the recipients of the most massive humanitarian effort in the history of man.

Anyhow, just wondering how everybody feels about the USA being a population that would do anythng to anybody to make a buck. I know I have morals, compassion, honor and was just wondering if it is a geographical thing or a media thing, or somebody's mistaken view of what they percieve America is all about.

I watch America forgive Billions in Iraqi debts but then see France, Germany and Russia freak.

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

This would, on a larger scale be more applicable to a country such as France, I would think. One that had much to lose in the way of debt repayment, so that they would do anything they could to facilitate the Status Quo so that they could make their money back. Even if it meant the systematic murder of millions of Arabs over the years by Saddam.

Then again, we are not talking about France (5 Billion). Or Germany (8 Billion), or Kuwait (100 Billion) or Russia (20 Billion) These countries would help out an oppressed people for sure, even if it meant they would lose all the money they had comming to them.

Just greedy Americans (20 Billion FORGIVEN) who would sell their mother before they would help anybody. No way that they would ever think about freedom for anybody, justice for anybody or equality in any form. Hell, I'll bet that if they ever catch terrorists or Dictators they execute them before anybody even knows they were captured. Justice and freedom are only for people with money.

[KrustyKidd]

I believe that man is a pack animal. Like a dog he functions very well in small groups. I use the Mormons and Tribes of all types as an example of sucess.

I also believe that today's society, man has become, out of necessity a 'hive' animal. Something which is purely unnatural for him to deal with. Nameless faces pass city dwellers by on the streets on the way to work. Travellers from small towns are inundated by strangers everywhere they go. Students in high schools are confronted daily by aggressive strangers with no apparent form of shelter and, if not belonging to a club or group, have little or no outlet.

In the more oppressed areas of the world there is no human rights of any kind to fall back on. These ichons of Liberalism allow no outlet for frustration, and demonstrate on a daily basis that the family unit, the one thing that keeps most of mankind from going insane, is easily destroyed on a whim by the regime in charge. Wives are dragged off the street by rumor, husbands are tortured to reveal by false testimony the names of others that can be tortured. And yet some feel that this is a far better situation and ideaology than the supposed greed that takes place in America. They forget that this is what people become when not bound by Western rules, the rules they say that are based on greed and selfishness.

I wonder if the postition were reversed, and the choice to reveal the name of a friend were given to most, while having their genitils worked over with pliers, I wonder if many would prefer to live in America the evil, or the cold basement of their misfortune, in the country that Liberals would call an 'Innocent Victim of American Greed'? Myself, I think that the third world needs more Western influence. There, if left alone, greed becomes evil rather than a motivating factor for the sucess of all, as it is in America.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Hardner,

I think the US has been acting far more conscientuously of late and this is one thing that ticks me off about leftists - they will not admit this.

It seems to me there was LESS outcry from the left when the US was more invoved in dirty tricks in Latin America etc. etc. You can say that it's because the cold war is over, but the fact is that the US is cleaning up their act.

I believe I have always (in my adult life) been against those South American and African US ventures, but only recently has electronic communication made a vast audience possible. ( I didn't have your phone#, 20 yrs ago, lol)

I must have missed the announcement when the US said it was no longer putting it's own interests first.

[KrustyKidd]

No Lonius, their interests are still first. I live for my daughter. I don't live so some Arab kid can get a drink of clean water. I don't live so some mother does not have to worry about feeding her children in some third world shit hole. I live to take care of mine. I would hope that you do as well otherwise I should think there is something seriously inhuman about you.

I, like the US, do not give a hoot about people in the third world other than hope that in general that they do well and get the opportunity of life that I have.

The point of my post is this:

In order for me to have a clear conscience, I must make efforts to give them opportunity to live a life as enriched as mine without taking away from my daughter's welfare.

In order to give my daughter a crack at life I must make every effort to ensure that these poor people are able to sustain themselves so they don't come after us and our way of life. You could say that we are throwing them a bone, sure. If they co opreate with our bone then it may turn into a generous side of beef. However, we have all sorts of people that are claiming that we don't care.

Of course we don't care! Either do you! If you did you would have a bloody house full of dirty, stinking third world refugees! You don't though do you? Why? Because it would take an unreasonable amount of resources from you and your family, instead you claim that we don't care.

Mother Theresa took care of Calcutta's orphans for selfish reasons. To satisfy her conciense she had an impulsive need to do this. It consumed her. It gave her power to transend mortal life and become an actual SPIRIT. I hightly doubt that you were writing her hate mail telling her that she is a bitch for not taking up the cause of Palestinians or did you?

When walking down the stree you see a begar, you pass by and then feel guilty. You know you should have given so next time to eliminate that problem you give.

The Police come by and see the same beggar, knowing that beggars who have no food or hope can cause serious problems with law abiding citizens call the Welfare Office and they, with the help of the police take him off the street and rehabilitate him and sort him out with job and whatever best they can.

Who was greedy here? All of them were. Al of them wanted to get rid of a problem, all of them wanted to go home at night to the one thing that matters in their life: their families and their own. All of them wanted to have a clear conscience without compromising their own life or the lifestyle that they have worked for to give their families. Not one of them really cared about the beggar. Sure they felt sorry, sure they wanted to help but none would give up what is their families All humans do things for selfish reasons. Greed is emotional as well as material. Greed is negotiabke and can be compromised in the conscience and soul.

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

Freedom, equality and justice are never negotiable.

[Michael Hardner]

I must have missed the announcement when the US said it was no longer putting it's own interests first.

They still do, obviously, but the American people are less likely to sanction dirty tricks done in their name.

And this is a good thing for all.

[Elder]

A Government role is to serve the it's people. That comes first and foremost in any situation. That's why we elect them, to serve us. If you want to look at this from a Christian perspective, the parable of the mote and the beam comes to mind. You can't take a mote from one persons eye when you have a beam in your own.

Now I would love to see third world refugees taken care of. I would love to see some Government aid go their way (although I believe there already is some, I'd love to see more). I doubt that Congress or anyone else would be incredibly upset if they were to end world hunger. However, before they do that, they have their own problems. They have their own hungry, they have their own law problems, and their own reforms to make. That's why they were elected. Not to end world hunger, but to help the American people with their problems. If they can do that and help out the Third World, Great. If not, it's sad, but you can only help as much as you can help.

I personally try to aid charities and the like as much as I can, but not at the expense of my family (my family comes before everything besides God.) I don't pay taxes to the government so that they can send it off for middle eastern villages, I pay taxes to support the laws that protect my rights, the millitary and law enforcement people who protect my life and my freedoms, and if a little is left over for Charity, that's fine. I do my own Charity, and I don't like being forced in it either. I support my family, and then I do whatever I can for those around me.

[KrustyKidd]

You can't take a mote from one persons eye when you have a beam in your own.

Absolutely. Some say though (presumably after removing the splinter or beam from their own eye) that in the USA ....

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

This leads me to believe that without proof that the USA is greedier than the rest of the world, that it is an incorrect statement and based on simple bias or bigotry. Correct or not though, I would like to get some input into how the rest of the planet is falling all over themselves to save the third world. I mean, the EU and Asia have more than enough resources to do this. Shoot, with gererous, unselfish, ungreedy people like that I am surprised that there is even hunger ANYWHERE in the world.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr Hardner,

the American people are less likely to sanction dirty tricks done in their name.

I agree. The spirit of McCarthyism is less predominant and intense than is was. However, the American public was not then, and is not now fully informed of the 'dirty tricks' that go on.

The gov't of the US (and the 'raison d'etre' of it's God and culture[sic]) serves Mammon. That means industry and the media must fall in line with foriegn (and to a lesser degree domestic) policy.

For example, If I may, (because this would be 'ancient history to some') the Invasion of Panama. It was condemned worldwide as a 'flagrant violation of international law' and a UN resolution was passed DEMANDING the US cease the invasion, and FURTHER DEMANDING all US troops be immediately withdrawn, and finally EXPECTING that the US live up to it's treaty obligations with regard to returning control of the Canal Zone to Panama as rep the Carter-Truillos treaty.

The US media did not report one word of the international condemnation to it's own people. (Actually one major news network, I think ABC, gave it about 9 seconds).

If the people are kept unaware, what is there to protest? The 'right-wing' seem to think that the left protest victory. Nonsense. We question motivations, think of the best end to arrive at, and believe means cannot justify an end.

The truest end can only be arrived at by the truest path.

[KrustyKidd]

And scince then, the media who are supposedly controled by the US have consistently spoken out against, if not undermined the US for outsitng Saddam.

Now, back to the thread. People in America are SOBs and ;

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

A wafflel iron has more value than rightiousness, better to have a starving child than get ten cents off a gallon off road deisel.

Comon bro Lonious, back it up.

[Michael Hardner]

If the people are kept unaware, what is there to protest? The 'right-wing' seem to think that the left protest victory. Nonsense. We question motivations, think of the best end to arrive at, and believe means cannot justify an end.

Then you have to admit that the US has been better behaved since the cold war ended, right ? Latin America is largely being ignored by the US and this is a good thing.

I think that every nation acts in its own interest, including Canada.

[Neal.F.]

Every nation MUST act in its own interest. Failure to do so, means subjugation to another, or others.

Case in point: Poland. For almost 200 years , though it had a parliament (Sejm), the country was run by a handful of very powerful families, known as magnates. The magnates controlled the Sejm. the Sejm's deputies were usually members of the swollen petty gentry, often knights of no financial substance whose livelihoods depended on the magnate whom they served.

Burghers and Jews had no right to send members to the Sejm, and thus were subject to the whis of the magnates.

bear with me, I'll get to the point in a moment.

There was another thing, which helped make this system unworkable: It was called the Liberum Veto. This was the process where ONE member of the Sejm could annul any and all acts passed, by simply rising and shouting "I object!". The bottom line is that if a magnate did not like a law, he could wipe out the whole work of a session when his delegate uttered thos two words. Thus much sensible legislation which would have strengthened Poland were simply quashed. This left Poland open to manipulation by foreign powers (Most magnates were in the pay of one foreign country or other, ie: France, austria, Prussia, Sweden or Russia) . Therefore, what it all comes down to is that Poland was not governing itself in accordance with its national interests, but rather in the short term interests of greedy magnates in their desire to enrich themselves, and in the long term to the benefit of their enemies. The country was indefensible, unless the magnates permitted the king (usually an elected foreigner) to raise an army for a specific purpose. Thus Sweden laid waste to the country in the 1650's and ultimately it was partitioned by Russia Prussia and Austria.

This is one reason why I oppose globalization, supranational organizations, and too much corporate power. Corporate CEO's are the modern day magnates who act in THEIR interests, not in the intersts of their country. They are in a manner of speaking selling their country out to foreign interests for short term gain: ie: shipping jobs and factories off to Chian, India etc.

There may well come a day when the west finds itself indefensible because their manufacturing capacity will have been emasculated.

Nor can a government that purports to act in its own national interests take heed to what other countries have to say at the UN, for example. Let's not forget, France germany and Russia are acting in their national interest, and that may not co-incide with what is good for the USA.

And finally, the WTO(GATT) . There is where governments do the bidding of their Fortune 500 CEO's, and you can be sure that they are not acting in the interests of the economuic strength of their countries so that the maximum possible good and opportunity exists for citizens. They are acting so that the big corporations can gain even more dominance, while the leading job creators, small & medium sized business are squeezed out.

That said, we need to get away from globalization, and back to where countries entered into one-on one deals, not one where world bodies dictated what they think is best.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I must admit I have digressed a bit with regard to your topic. To get back to the simple basics, of the Degeneration of Morals in Society (in which I believe the US leads the way):

The Family unit: While most of you claim to put family ahead of all else, it is family that has been the 'second casualty'. As the 'greed system' perpetually demands 'more', both parents in a relationship must work. Not always, but I believe it has become the norm. Moral values start in the home. If there is no one in the home, the values develop from outside. Television is probably the biggest culprit in the debasement of values. 'If it doesn't have sex and violence, it won't sell' is the watchword of the entertainment industry. Thus, the pursuit of larger profits is allowed and enabled to dictate the 'moral compass' of those within the 'greed system'. (Which is pretty much all of us).

Individual rights: There is few more noble causes and rights than this one, but it is also open to severe abuse. Nowadays, individual rights usurps the rights of society, and thereby other's individual's rights. For example, (and this is a true one) a burglar slips and falls on someone's property while breaking and entering, sues the property owner, and wins a cash settlement. If there were no monies to be made through compensation, this case would have been laughed out of court. The burglar would have been expected to make his way about the prison yard on crutches. But, instead, money played the largest role of determining right versus wrong. Rgiht, I believe, in this case, lost.

I believe some rights of society at large are greater than those of the individual.

[KrustyKidd]

I'm not so sure Lonius. Your points are correct but I am less hasty to place inginuity, wonder, hard work and ambition in the same sin pot as greed.

I drive truck, I go away from home for days and sometimes weeks at a time. I leave my family behind. That, under your formula would make me greedy. Those sinning Euros on the other hand go away every day and come home at night and are therefore sinless?

The individual rights rational with the burgler did make a point but I will counter it with how it demonstrates that the US has 'Justice for all' by showing that even the worst offenders are given justice.

I took a quick look at the top ten movies and all, there are violent ones, love storys, comedies, childrens movies. Same with TV shows. Survivor is crap but it was one of the top shows and had no violence or sex. Hmmm.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Survivor is crap but it was one of the top shows and had no violence or sex.

I have never seen it, but I believe that backstabbing and personal greed are what 'wins'. Thereby making evil vitrous, if not at least rewardable. I believe that there is also lots of innuendo, and while I am not exactly a prude, I think that they use girls in bikinis to sell also. Perhaps our society has such wide paramaters of acceptance, nothing short of 'penetration' is considered 'sex' anymore.

I am less hasty to place inginuity, wonder, hard work and ambition in the same sin pot as greed.

I agree, that was not my intention. I am against welfare, for I believe in the value of hard work and ambition. However, even that does not seem to suffice in the consumerist society of the US(especially).

[KrustyKidd]

Yes indeed Brother Lonius. Survivor does tend to fit in with the degeneration of American society. For us in the 'Moral Majority' it used to be so simple. 'Gratuitous sex and violence' was so apparent and easy to identify. Now we have to contend with things like this, 'Gratuitous Strategy' in order to win a game of skill and thought. How will we put a rating on this I wonder? 'X', 'R'. 'PG 13? Not to mention all the damm chessboards we will have to burn along with Risk games. As a bonus with the Risk game we can rid the world of a small amount of gambling as well! You are a great sport Lonius!

Now back to the working parent and all. Money is freedom. Money is equality, it buys just as much for a black as a white. Money cannot win in a court of law. but it can help in the search for justice by retaining buy the services of a good lawyer but it cannot pervert justice.

If your intent is to say that two working parents are a sign of greed then I would suppose that Frace is a virtual Satan compared to a place like Somalia where there is rampant unemployment and most parents are at home or what is as close to it as they can get. I consider the two parents working to make the home a better place. Not better in your mind but certainly in theirs, once again, freedom comes to the rescue of my point!

As I said above, money is freedom of sorts. To simply say that it is greed is to be able to enter the heart of the person who posses it and none can do that. Freedom to send your child to college, freedom to give away, freedom to help others, freedom to learn, freedom to do whatever your want. That's not greed, that is what most people aspire to do. It is just that Americans do it better than most, they don't mope as much as the rest of the world, they take the bull by the horns.

Money also is a way of projecting influence. If you have it you can move it and put it to work in a place where work needs to be done. It is a valuable thing. If you think that money is not importent to you Lonius, try this:

Take a ten dollar bill and hold it in front of you and then burn it. I know you are able to afford to do this so don't tell me it will break you if you do. If you can, then you do not think it is that importent. If you cannot then you prove my point that you like it, you are greedy, so greedy that you cannot do it in order to prove me wrong about you.

Anyhow. Were you just pulling my leg with everything else and making me sing for the proof that in America

Freedom, equality, justice etc have long ago taken a back seat to greed.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Money cannot win in a court of law. but it can help in the search for justice by retaining buy the services of a good lawyer but it cannot pervert justice.

I have only one word in response to this. Orenthal.

I believe that working parents are good overall. It is just that the pursuit of money has overtaken the pursuit of happiness. The 'moral high-jump bar' has been constantly lowered, in western society, to the point that what was unthinkable when I was a child has become acceptable today.

I have a teacher as a client, and she told me that one of the big 'moral problems' today is teenage girls giving blowjobs for $20 dollars because it is easier money than babysitting. With neither parent around for moral guidance, the teens think' Well, Madonna would approve'.

I believe to a large degree in 'tabula rasa' and I dislike who is doing the writing. I also see the results, and dislike it even more.

[KrustyKidd]

$20 BJs and OJ Simpson is your proof? This is what you based that broad statement of American greed on? These are your rationale for saying that America has forsaken Freedom, equality and justice?

Case ajourned!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Actuall I just tried to offer one tiny example. Perhaps I should have offered none, and kept it at

the pursuit of money has overtaken the pursuit of happiness. The 'moral high-jump bar' has been constantly lowered, in western society, to the point that what was unthinkable when I was a child has become acceptable today.

When backstabbing becomes a virtue, you are worshipping the wrong God. Mammon.

[KrustyKidd]

No, not really. Both are equally weak to support the statement you made. You are up against the US Constitution, and hundreds of thousands of laws which all state that freedom, justice and equality are enshrined in America. To flat out say that it has been replaced by greed without nation wide statistics on then (whatever point that you ever thought that America was free et al) and now.

I understand where you are comming from. There are real problems all over but to simply ice it with a bogus Anti America statement that you cannot prove is typical of ranting Leftists and not you.

There are opportunists in every society that play the system like a violin. In our society they play the Government Agency game whereby many get grants for crap studies and all to give a small example off the top of my head. In an Islamic society they interpret the Koran in some specific way to get their will done.

It is a fact that America is motivated by money, try to look at it as a trading tool and a way of keeping work and equity fluid rather than greed. It is a way to enable rather than reach a limit which is bound by geography or time. Some for sure covet it for the simple thing it is and many try to get it for free. Similar to those who here try to rip the welfare sytem off. Most people there are hardworking, law abiding citizens like in most other places of the world. They work with the system that is theirs. Funny that I didn't see you ragging on the sytem that has women stoned to death and thieves with hands cut off for not adhering to the interpreted word of individuals. That is a form of greed that really has taken the place of freedom, justice and equality. Greed for power at the expense of every other person's freedom.