What do aboriginals want?

[no queenslave]

If you think you should have your own sovereign country then go to the U.N. and ask for Quebec to be recognized as your sovereign country; as it has already been recognized as a distinct society. If you think you have some other rights look at how the Palestinians have been treated by the state of Israel .

[Topaz]

If you think you should have your own sovereign country then go to the U.N. and ask for Quebec to be recognized as your sovereign country; as it has already been recognized as a distinct society. If you think you have some other rights look at how the Palestinians have been treated by the state of Israel .

Wait a minute. The First Nation did have their own nation till the English and French came and took it away from them, like the invasion of Iraq! Haven't you watched on the TV the "History of Canada"????? Alot of us who are non-native may not like that statement, but its the truth so let be fair.

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely they should have their own sovereign country!

We don't have to give money to another sovereign country. That would be tribute if involuntary and foreign aid if not. If their country was just another sovereign country in the world we would pay them only a percentage of our foreign aid budget, which is FAR less than we give through Indian Affairs!

This would also be much better for the Natives! They could establish for themselves the right to property, a right the Indian Act denies them. This means no bank or credit agency in their right mind would loan money to an aboriginal! Under the present system if the aboriginal refuses to repay the loan there is nothing the bank can do!

The natives appear to be trapped in some kind of ivory tower academic socialist system that denies them any hope of every being truly self sufficient. I submit that it is impossible to ever become self-sufficient when you depend on the dole of others. The law should be changed!

[no queenslave]

Wait a minute. The First Nation did have their own nation till the English and French came and took it away from them, like the invasion of Iraq! Haven't you watched on the TV the "History of Canada"????? Alot of us who are non-native may not like that statement, but its the truth so let be fair.

took it away to where? Maybe you can find it. The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel. The land is not the property of the first nations or any other group of people. Are the first nations racist in thinking they are the sole owners of land?

The governing of people in any land is another story. Who did the first nations steal the land from; or have they a document saying they bought it from someone? Quit living in the past.

Time to settle the misunderstanding with a written document as to what the first nation people think they want. How far back in history do you want to go and return land to former rulers of land. How about giving Iraq back to Saddams family as he once controlled it?

Do the Americans own the moon as they were their first? That is the reasoning of the first nations claim. Nobody took land away; just different people control it. The question is do you want to have a say in how the land is governed or not? Or do you want a separat part of the country to set up another dictatorship?

[M.Dancer]

The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel.

Umm....no they didn't.

[no queenslave]

Umm....no they didn't.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story583.html

[jawapunk]

Hahahahah.

Your link is garbage Queen.

You map is Titled: "Palestine 1946: Districts and District Centers During the Mandate Period."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"The British Mandate for Palestine, sometimes referred to as the Mandate of Palestine, was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Sèvres."

And beofre this mandate, the region of Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire, and before that...well you can figure it out from here...hopefully.

Edited November 28, 2007 by jawapunk

[Topaz]

took it away to where? Maybe you can find it. The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel. The land is not the property of the first nations or any other group of people. Are the first nations racist in thinking they are the sole owners of land?

The governing of people in any land is another story. Who did the first nations steal the land from; or have they a document saying they bought it from someone? Quit living in the past.

Time to settle the misunderstanding with a written document as to what the first nation people think they want. How far back in history do you want to go and return land to former rulers of land. How about giving Iraq back to Saddams family as he once controlled it?

Do the Americans own the moon as they were their first? That is the reasoning of the first nations claim. Nobody took land away; just different people control it. The question is do you want to have a say in how the land is governed or not? Or do you want a separat part of the country to set up another dictatorship?

You can't steal something if no else around is around to steal from, can you? The First Nation were here and when the French and English came they killed and took the land from them.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story583.html

Your terse proof is proof they weren't sovereign or had their own nation.

They did pay taxes though.....

[no queenslave]

Hahahahah.

Your link is garbage Queen.

You map is Titled: "Palestine 1946: Districts and District Centers During the Mandate Period."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"The British Mandate for Palestine, sometimes referred to as the Mandate of Palestine, was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Sèvres."

And beofre this mandate, the region of Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire, and before that...well you can figure it out from here...hopefully.

just proving my point.

[M.Dancer]

just proving my point.

WHat? That you don't know what you are talking about?

You. Win. Every. Time. You. Post.

[no queenslave]

Your terse proof is proof they weren't sovereign or had their own nation.

They did pay taxes though.....

and by what means is the first nations people different? Did they pay taxes; and what does paying taxes do?

[no queenslave]

Hahahahah.

Your link is garbage Queen.

You map is Titled: "Palestine 1946: Districts and District Centers During the Mandate Period."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"The British Mandate for Palestine, sometimes referred to as the Mandate of Palestine, was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Sèvres."

And beofre this mandate, the region of Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire, and before that...well you can figure it out from here...hopefully.

so do you want the Ottoman Empire reinstated?Just like the first nations think they should be.

[Rue]

Queenslave you made several erroneous comments;

"The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel. "

There was no Palestinian state prior to Israel. By the way the UN did not create Israel. In fact Israel came about by de facto recognition. What happened was the Arab League would not agree to two nations, one Palestinian and one Israeli, and forced the issue with a war hoping it would get rid of all the Jews in Palestine-so it launched a war and it lost. It then ordered Palestinians into refugee camps and used them as pawns openly stating they would be kept their as a reminder to the world until Israel was given back to them.

The Arab League then forcefully expelled 900,000 Jews from Arab countries forcing 700,000 of them to flee to Israel with nothing, sealing the fate of Palestinians trapped in camps because even if they wanted to return now all these displaced Jews made that impossible.

Perhaps you should take the time to find out what happened.

The land disputes between Palestinians and Israelis came about because of the British and French artificially carving up the Middle East and deliberately circumventing an arrangement between Jews and Arabs that would have allowed for peaceful co-existence.

Its a legacy to the idiocy of how humans try divide and conquer and seize things at someone else's expense. There are only victims in such stories, no one is right or wrong-people just suffer.

You also made several comments about how far back you go to determine land rights. Well obviously in your case with Palestine you only go back to when you think this fictitious Palestinian state existed but in real life it does not work that way.

In the case of Canada you go back to the treaties the confederation agreed to sign and follow.

Aboriginals are not asking for anything we did not already agree to give them. Perhaps if you read the breached treaties it would explain to you what they are asking for. They are simply asking we honour the agreements we said we would.

In fact if you actually read what they have asked for you would find it is not what you think it is.

Their request to have access to land rights is not the kind of concept you think it is where people "own" it. Aboriginals do not "own" land, they inherit the legacy of enjoying it and then leaving it for their children and their children to do the same.

The notion of fences and ownership and deeds is a Western legal one. Its got nothing to do with what they have asked be honoured.

This is why in their treaties they refer to access and rights that are not attached to the land but to the earth as a greater whole. The land borders thrust on them in discussions as to how we can share the land is from us not them. If they now refer to a specific area of land its because we forced them into that particular area-they didn't ask for it, it was forced on them when we took other land away from them.

[no queenslave]

WHat? That you don't know what you are talking about?

You. Win. Every. Time. You. Post.

thanks for realizing that i win..

[Rue]

so do you want the Ottoman Empire reinstated?Just like the first nations think they should be.

The Ottoman Empire was a monarchy and an absent landlord. It actually had very little to do with the land it controlled. For the most part it was an absentee landlord that collected taxes from poor intinerant farmers that squatted on the land. The land was given to friends of the monarch for safekeeping and they in turn used these farmers as cheap labour and collected taxes from them and gave them to the monarch. Sound familiar?

If farmers did not pay taxes they had to go into the army or their sons or daughters were taken away.

So again your notion of the Ottoman Empire being how far back you should go in history is kind of silly. Why don't you go back to the Bible then if you want to pick arbitrarily a nation. How about the Israelites and Phillistines or maybe the ancient Persians?

I think you missed the poster's point and that is your awareness of Middle East history is a tad selective and probably misleading precisely because you are making arbitrary assumptions as to what historic periods you have decided to recognize.

[jawapunk]

Just proving your point? I just proved you completely wrong. You were spouting crap about a Palestinian Nation which never existed. You posted a link to prove it did, and I posted links showing that you don't know what you're talking about. Palestine has only existed as a part of a larger nation never an independent state.

Who said anything about reinstating the Ottomans? Which is impossible anyways as they no longer exist. They are now called Turkey. Which is much like what you sound like.

[Rue]

You can't steal something if no else around is around to steal from, can you? The First Nation were here and when the French and English came they killed and took the land from them.

To answer your question, technically under international law, if you take de facto possession of abandon land, and you remain in possession of it for an uninterupted period of time, you can be recognized as having sovereignty over it. So using your words, yes it would be impossible to steal something if no one else asked for it.

Its interesting because if Canada doesn't show its in control of the North, the Russians, British, French, Danish to name just a few countries, will argue we abandon it and they have a right to access and use it. That is why we have to establish continuous uninterupted use of it.

Ironically we depend on our aboriginals to patrol the North for us and protect our sovereignty. we deny their sovereignty but we depend on them to protect ours.

I just love irony. Makes my shirts crisp.

[Rue]

Just proving your point? I just proved you completely wrong. You were spouting crap about a Palestinian Nation which never existed. You posted a link to prove it did, and I posted links showing that you don't know what you're talking about. Palestine has only existed as a part of a larger nation never an independent state.

Who said anything about reinstating the Ottomans? Which is impossible anyways as they no longer exist. They are now called Turkey. Which is much like what you sound like.

Lol. When you figure out why Turkeys have that pink thing that dangles let me know. Everytime I ask the question someone advises me to buy viagra.

[no queenslave]

Queenslave you made several erroneous comments;

"The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel. "

There was no Palestinian state prior to Israel. By the way the UN did not create Israel. In fact Israel came about by de facto recognition. What happened was the Arab League would not agree to two nations, one Palestinian and one Israeli, and forced the issue with a war hoping it would get rid of all the Jews in Palestine-so it launched a war and it lost. It then ordered Palestinians into refugee camps and used them as pawns openly stating they would be kept their as a reminder to the world until Israel was given back to them.

The Arab League then forcefully expelled 900,000 Jews from Arab countries forcing 700,000 of them to flee to Israel with nothing, sealing the fate of Palestinians trapped in camps because even if they wanted to return now all these displaced Jews made that impossible.

Perhaps you should take the time to find out what happened.

The land disputes between Palestinians and Israelis came about because of the British and French artificially carving up the Middle East and deliberately circumventing an arrangement between Jews and Arabs that would have allowed for peaceful co-existence.

Its a legacy to the idiocy of how humans try divide and conquer and seize things at someone else's expense. There are only victims in such stories, no one is right or wrong-people just suffer.

You also made several comments about how far back you go to determine land rights. Well obviously in your case with Palestine you only go back to when you think this fictitious Palestinian state existed but in real life it does not work that way.

In the case of Canada you go back to the treaties the confederation agreed to sign and follow.

Aboriginals are not asking for anything we did not already agree to give them. Perhaps if you read the breached treaties it would explain to you what they are asking for. They are simply asking we honour the agreements we said we would.

In fact if you actually read what they have asked for you would find it is not what you think it is.

Their request to have access to land rights is not the kind of concept you think it is where people "own" it. Aboriginals do not "own" land, they inherit the legacy of enjoying it and then leaving it for their children and their children to do the same.

The notion of fences and ownership and deeds is a Western legal one. Its got nothing to do with what they have asked be honoured.

This is why in their treaties they refer to access and rights that are not attached to the land but to the earth as a greater whole. The land borders thrust on them in discussions as to how we can share the land is from us not them. If they now refer to a specific area of land its because we forced them into that particular area-they didn't ask for it, it was forced on them when we took other land away from them.

At least you admit one thing ; Aboriginals do not own land. So it could not be stolen from them so quit bitching.

Palestine was recognized by the British by de facto recognition,

So why is the government making land claim settlements with the Aboriginals if they Do not own land? Who are they paying land taxes to? The charter of equality- if they don't have to pay land taxes then why should anybody else? All you have is a dictatorship government trying to apease the aboriginals on the backs of other taxpayers.

must be like golda m saying you forced us to kill your sons.

If the Aboriginals don't own the land ; who does the queen?

We did not agree to give natives anything ; it was the queen as ruler of the colony.

And by the same de facto recognition of canada as a sovereign state - country by the U.N.

no british law or treaty no longer applies.

Access to land rights is an old british lord right. A master with slaves.

[Posit]

At least you admit one thing ; Aboriginals do not own land. So it could not be stolen from them so quit bitching.

Palestine was recognized by the British by de facto recognition,

So why is the government making land claim settlements with the Aboriginals if they Do not own land? Who are they paying land taxes to? The charter of equality- if they don't have to pay land taxes then why should anybody else? All you have is a dictatorship government trying to apease the aboriginals on the backs of other taxpayers.

must be like golda m saying you forced us to kill your sons.

If the Aboriginals don't own the land ; who does the queen?

We did not agree to give natives anything ; it was the queen as ruler of the colony.

And by the same de facto recognition of canada as a sovereign state - country by the U.N.

no british law or treaty no longer applies.

Access to land rights is an old british lord right. A master with slaves.

Aboriginals do not own land.

Actually, neither to Canadians. We merely hold a "title" to the land which gives us leasee rights. In that tenure, we can only use the land to a plow's depth and the rights to live on it are only there so long as the public good allows it. However, if the public good demands that it needs your rights removed, it is a simple process of expropriation to remove your and your title and hand it back to the government.

On the other hand, natives hold "aboriginal right" over their territories. In some cases that Constitutional right has been defined by a treaty. In other cases it will be open to future interpretation (as was recently made in BC). In any case, their aboriginal right exceeds our simple title right, or the Crown right to minerals and resources.

[no queenslave]

Just proving your point? I just proved you completely wrong. You were spouting crap about a Palestinian Nation which never existed. You posted a link to prove it did, and I posted links showing that you don't know what you're talking about. Palestine has only existed as a part of a larger nation never an independent state.

Who said anything about reinstating the Ottomans? Which is impossible anyways as they no longer exist. They are now called Turkey. Which is much like what you sound like.

and any native land claims are for part of a larger nation never an independent state

Where is your documentation for each aboriginal nation of the continent of north America; ?.Just a group of squatters.

[jawapunk]

I never made ANY statement about aboriginals so why would I need to prove or provide evidence to back up no claim?

I only commented on your post regarding Palestine, that's it. It was a poor analogy.

[no queenslave]

Actually, neither to Canadians. We merely hold a "title" to the land which gives us leasee rights. In that tenure, we can only use the land to a plow's depth and the rights to live on it are only there so long as the public good allows it. However, if the public good demands that it needs your rights removed, it is a simple process of expropriation to remove your and your title and hand it back to the government.

On the other hand, natives hold "aboriginal right" over their territories. In some cases that Constitutional right has been defined by a treaty. In other cases it will be open to future interpretation (as was recently made in BC). In any case, their aboriginal right exceeds our simple title right, or the Crown right to minerals and resources.

And by your argument you imply the U.S.Has total rights to the moon no matter what anybody else does. The U.S. are the aboriginals of the moon.

[no queenslave]

Queenslave you made several erroneous comments;

"The Palestinians had their own nation till the U.N. created the state of Israel. "

There was no Palestinian state prior to Israel. By the way the UN did not create Israel. In fact Israel came about by de facto recognition. What happened was the Arab League would not agree to two nations, one Palestinian and one Israeli, and forced the issue with a war hoping it would get rid of all the Jews in Palestine-so it launched a war and it lost. It then ordered Palestinians into refugee camps and used them as pawns openly stating they would be kept their as a reminder to the world until Israel was given back to them.

The Arab League then forcefully expelled 900,000 Jews from Arab countries forcing 700,000 of them to flee to Israel with nothing, sealing the fate of Palestinians trapped in camps because even if they wanted to return now all these displaced Jews made that impossible.

Perhaps you should take the time to find out what happened.

The land disputes between Palestinians and Israelis came about because of the British and French artificially carving up the Middle East and deliberately circumventing an arrangement between Jews and Arabs that would have allowed for peaceful co-existence.

Its a legacy to the idiocy of how humans try divide and conquer and seize things at someone else's expense. There are only victims in such stories, no one is right or wrong-people just suffer.

You also made several comments about how far back you go to determine land rights. Well obviously in your case with Palestine you only go back to when you think this fictitious Palestinian state existed but in real life it does not work that way.

In the case of Canada you go back to the treaties the confederation agreed to sign and follow.

Aboriginals are not asking for anything we did not already agree to give them. Perhaps if you read the breached treaties it would explain to you what they are asking for. They are simply asking we honour the agreements we said we would.

In fact if you actually read what they have asked for you would find it is not what you think it is.

Their request to have access to land rights is not the kind of concept you think it is where people "own" it. Aboriginals do not "own" land, they inherit the legacy of enjoying it and then leaving it for their children and their children to do the same.

The notion of fences and ownership and deeds is a Western legal one. Its got nothing to do with what they have asked be honoured.

This is why in their treaties they refer to access and rights that are not attached to the land but to the earth as a greater whole. The land borders thrust on them in discussions as to how we can share the land is from us not them. If they now refer to a specific area of land its because we forced them into that particular area-they didn't ask for it, it was forced on them when we took other land away from them.

There was a state called palistine which the jews wanted to control and started the war to gain control over the palistinian state. What is a Canadian? What nationality?Are first nations people Canadians?

Edited November 28, 2007 by no queenslave