Canada blocks Commonwealth climate-change deal

[Canuck E Stan]

The surprising thing the Environic poll said was how much the much Canadians were willing to pay. It was a substantial amount. You can look it up if you like. It was in the poll.

As for how much it would affect lifestyle, that is speculative at best. It doesn't seem to have affected American lifestyles and they have done more on global warming that Canada has even without an agreement.

And how much are Canadians willing to pay before the bill is actually in front of them? My guess just about anything,thinking that the bill will be more of an issue for the government.

I don't recall any amount been given in terms of per individual Canadians ever being stated by any pollster. You know different?

And the answer to the Liberal question?

How clear has Dion and the Liberals been on what the cost would be to Canadians?

[Riverwind]

And how much are Canadians willing to pay before the bill is actually in front of them? My guess just about anything,thinking that the bill will be more of an issue for the government.

Frankly, such poll questions are meaningless unless they ask people what they would pay *personally* (e.g. would you support a 5 cent increase in the GST?) When many people are asked such questions they generally assume the cost will be paid by someone else's taxes and it is easy for them to agree to spend other people's money. Edited December 10, 2007 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

And how much are Canadians willing to pay before the bill is actually in front of them? My guess just about anything,thinking that the bill will be more of an issue for the government.

I don't recall any amount been given in terms of per individual Canadians ever being stated by any pollster. You know different?

And the answer to the Liberal question?

I don't think anyone has said what the numbers would be one way or the other for inaction or action. The Stern Report was the British answer to the question. Canada should commission its own report.

The Liberals don't have hard numbers for action just as the Tories don't have hard numbers for inaction. Perhaps we should find out what they are.

[jdobbin]

Frankly, such poll questions are meaningless unless they ask people what they would pay *personally* (e.g. would you support a 5 cent increase in the GST?) When many people are asked such questions they generally assume the cost will be paid by someone else's taxes and it is easy for them to agree to spend other people's money.

And no one knows the costs either way because it hasn't been assessed. Perhaps the Tories could commission that report.

[Canuck E Stan]

I don't think anyone has said what the numbers would be one way or the other for inaction or action. The Stern Report was the British answer to the question. Canada should commission its own report.

The Liberals don't have hard numbers for action just as the Tories don't have hard numbers for inaction. Perhaps we should find out what they are.

In other words your statement about Canadians willing to pay because the poll said "Canadians were willing to pay. It was a substantial" actually means nothing,in terms of willing to pay,they really don't have a clue what each and every Canadian will have to pay.And from what you've stated, the Liberals are just as clueless but willing to press on,hoping to get in power and then present the bill to Canadians.

Are they willing to send a cheque for a $billions for the cause to some foreign country?

Even Australia's Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is having issues since signing up for Kyoto last week.

Nice in theory,hard to put in practice.

[jdobbin]

In other words your statement about Canadians willing to pay because the poll said "Canadians were willing to pay. It was a substantial" actually means nothing,in terms of willing to pay,they really don't have a clue what each and every Canadian will have to pay.And from what you've stated, the Liberals are just as clueless but willing to press on,hoping to get in power and then present the bill to Canadians.

Are they willing to send a cheque for a $billions for the cause to some foreign country?

Even Australia's Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is having issues since signing up for Kyoto last week.

Nice in theory,hard to put in practice.

I suggest the costs of doing nothing and the costs of action should be examined. If the Tories really believe it will cost too much, let's see what numbers they are talking about.

[Canuck E Stan]

I suggest the costs of doing nothing and the costs of action should be examined. If the Tories really believe it will cost too much, let's see what numbers they are talking about.

And I say let the Liberals and Dion tell me the cost of their type of action and what it involves.

The Liberals are claiming they know better,tell me what better is,how much it's going to cost, and how it is going to change the big picture here in Canada.

Why the big Liberal plan being a secret?

[jdobbin]

And I say let the Liberals and Dion tell me the cost of their type of action and what it involves.

The Liberals are claiming they know better,tell me what better is,how much it's going to cost, and how it is going to change the big picture here in Canada.

Why the big Liberal plan being a secret?

No secret. Liberals probably just don't want Tory copycat policies. heh

[Keepitsimple]

Canada ranked fourth worst in climate change list.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071207/...e_conference_16

Take a look at the countries in the list and tell me this exercise makes any sense at all. 50% of their weighting relates to emission trends. The authors acknowledge that many of the East Bloc countries have positive trends because they closed down so many of their filthy factories with the collapse of state (communist) support. That doesn't change the fact fact that Canada - or the US for that matter, should not be ranked behind China, India, Bulgaria, Latvia, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, etc, etc. Of course these countries have a positive trend in emissions - but that was because they were so filthy to begin with.....and they really didn't do that much - their state sanctioned economies went to pieces and they had to start over. This whole "ranking" is just another politicization of Kyoto.

I'd like to see what the emission trends are like for just the past 5 years - I think we'd all be surprised. It's a known fact that the Europeans reaped a windfall of emission reductions with their cleverly chosen year of 1990 - but they have been treading water or reversing the trends recently. Why aren't annual emissions published on an annual and historical basis - so every country can be accountable? Seems like a reasonable thing to do, even if it's delayed by 6-12 months. Wanna guess why such information is not readily available?

Actual Rankings by country: http://www.germanwatch.org/ccpi.htm

Edited December 10, 2007 by Keepitsimple

[Canuck E Stan]

No secret. Liberals probably just don't want Tory copycat policies. heh

You have anger with the Tories,but you want people to take the Liberals seriously.

How will they, when solutions to problems like this are never being stated,this heh heh answer of yours will have the Liberals in opposition for a long, long, time.

[jbg]

Certainly the dynamics for the next election are set up with this: The Conservatives are in opposition to doing anything on global warming, the Opposition is for doing something.

And tell me this; how much per litre will the opposition tell the voters they're going to raise petrol prices to accomplish the Kyoto benchmarks? And what will the Opposition say they did when NOT THE OPPOSITION during November 1993 to January 2006?

[jbg]

I suggest the costs of doing nothing and the costs of action should be examined. If the Tories really believe it will cost too much, let's see what numbers they are talking about.

What if, as is likely, "action" would have zero effect, both because of Canada's small size and because of the likelihood that the earth, from its inception, has faced "climate change"?

[jdobbin]

You have anger with the Tories,but you want people to take the Liberals seriously.

How will they, when solutions to problems like this are never being stated,this heh heh answer of yours will have the Liberals in opposition for a long, long, time.

I have no anger. My response was one of amusement. But I have noticed that many Liberal polices that were cancelled often get reinstated. One case in point is restoration of the income tax cut.

[Riverwind]

No secret. Liberals probably just don't want Tory copycat policies. heh

So you are saying the Liberals put their own political future ahead of saving the world? That is pretty hypocritical. If GW was really such a big issue I would expect them to be happy to let the Tories take credit for their ideas as long as the problem was solved.

I curious what good a study in Canada would do because we could shutdown the economy and it would have zero effect on climate change because Canada only emits 2% of the GHGs globally. Seems to me that the study would indicate that the cost of doing nothing is zero because we have to deal with climate chnage no matter what we do.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

So you are saying the Liberals put their own political future ahead of saving the world? That is pretty hypocritical. If GW was really such a big issue I would expect them to be happy to let the Tories take credit for their ideas as long as the problem was solved.

I curious what good a study in Canada would do because we could shutdown the economy and it would have zero effect on climate change because Canada only emits 2% of the GHGs globally. Seems to me that the study would indicate that the cost of doing nothing is zero because we have to deal with climate chnage no matter what we do.

It seems that some people already think they know how things will be for the Canadian economy.

If the Tories were interested in a bipartisan deal, they would have accepted the Opposition's work in the last session. They didn't.

[Canuck E Stan]

It seems that some people already think they know how things will be for the Canadian economy.

If the Tories were interested in a bipartisan deal, they would have accepted the Opposition's work in the last session. They didn't.

Let's not talk about some people like Dion who think they know how things will be for the Canadian economy.

He has proven he knows not enough to solve problems in the environment or the economy, especially when he had the power to do something about it.

The last session involved Kyoto, which is dead in the water.

The Tories are one up on the former Environment minister of the previous government, which did absolutely nothing,this government actually looked beyond Kyoto and had proposals to begin solving issues.

How can being better than nothing be faulted?

[Keepitsimple]

Kyoto, Kyoto, Kyoto. How can a government that has been in power less than 2 years ever come even remotely close to Kyoto targets that have to be met one month from now? It's not a question of "we have to try" - it's absolutely ludicrous to even think about it - one month from now!

[Riverwind]

Kyoto, Kyoto, Kyoto. How can a government that has been in power less than 2 years ever come even remotely close to Kyoto targets that have to be met one month from now? It's not a question of "we have to try" - it's absolutely ludicrous to even think about it - one month from now!

Instead of buy nothing day we can have "burn nothing days"! 5 times a month start Jan 1. They say it will be a cold winter so we better stock up on long johns with the flap at the back (imported from china which means they are 'emission free' as far as kyoto logic goes). Maybe Dion can sponser a long john give away to get everyone in the spirit. Edited December 11, 2007 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

Let's not talk about some people like Dion who think they know how things will be for the Canadian economy.

He has proven he knows not enough to solve problems in the environment or the economy, especially when he had the power to do something about it.

The last session involved Kyoto, which is dead in the water.

The Tories are one up on the former Environment minister of the previous government, which did absolutely nothing,this government actually looked beyond Kyoto and had proposals to begin solving issues.

How can being better than nothing be faulted?

It won't be better if many Tory supporters believes that nothing should be done on emissions. If Harper does push to get a world deal, he risks alienating his base where many think that global warming is false.

And if a deal doesn't happen, the government risks alienating a large sector of the public that does believe in global warming.

The Liberals did a poor job on the issue of emissions. I think that people who wanted something done fled to other parties.

The Tories, if they hope to expand their base, will somehow have to do something aside from continuing the Liberal policy of do nothing.

[Canuck E Stan]

What was wrong with the Tory start on a plan to fight Air and Water pollution?

Why couldn't the opposition accept this made in Canada for Canada plan, instead of insisting on Kyoto, that was far too late and far too expensive for Canadians to begin getting involved in, especially without any positive changes to the Canadian environment?

[jdobbin]

What was wrong with the Tory start on a plan to fight Air and Water pollution?

Why couldn't the opposition accept this made in Canada for Canada plan, instead of insisting on Kyoto, that was far too late and far too expensive for Canadians to begin getting involved in, especially without any positive changes to the Canadian environment?

The water and air pollution plan was not an emissions plan.

The government is free to introduce water and pollution bills again but if they tie them to their last emissions plan, it is a non-starter.

[bush_cheney2004]

The water and air pollution plan was not an emissions plan.

The government is free to introduce water and pollution bills again but if they tie them to their last emissions plan, it is a non-starter.

Frankly, I was surprised to learn just how undeveloped are Canada's anti-pollution measures in general compared to you-know-where. Kudos to the Tories for at least starting somewhere.

[Canuck E Stan]

The water and air pollution plan was not an emissions plan.

The government is free to introduce water and pollution bills again but if they tie them to their last emissions plan, it is a non-starter.

Remind me again what the opposition plan for emissions was.

I only recall generalities(Kyoto,Kyoto) and not any details of what they called for in the implementation.

[jdobbin]

Remind me again what the opposition plan for emissions was.

I only recall generalities(Kyoto,Kyoto) and not any details of what they called for in the implementation.

I've already said the Liberal plan was poor. The Tory plan was not any better.

[jbg]

I've already said the Liberal plan was poor. The Tory plan was not any better.

What was the Liberal's plan while they were in government?