Boycott Catholic, Anglican, United churches

[M.Dancer]

It is as legitimate as ...oral history...

anyway, here's some legitinmate history.

Your source may be...umm....nuts?

http://www.bc.united-church.ca/Faithful_Pu...onse_081997.htm

[Posit]

It is as legitimate as ...oral history...

anyway, here's some legitinmate history.

Your source may be...umm....nuts?

http://www.bc.united-church.ca/Faithful_Pu...onse_081997.htm

Ah....the Crucifixion...You do know that Rev. Kevin Annett copied and exposed to the public the documents that the United Church had in their archives that recorded the deaths and the abuses committed by minsters and lay people at the schools under their control? The UCC destroyed the originals after being called on the genocide and Kevin Annett was ostracized from the church. However, he still retains copies that are to be entered into evidence at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission once it gets started next year. His evidence is only one part of the total collective indictment of genocide against Canada. As well, even though there has been an initial payment under the Residential School Experience fund, the rest of the lawsuits and stories have only just begun to be told. Expect a steady stream of witnesses to the murders to the abuse and survivors of abuse to come forward.

[ScottSA]

Unfortunately Postit, sometimes the kind of people most likely to respond to these kinds of posts do so because they feel empowered by insulting others.

It unfortunately is typical of primate behaviour and in particular alpha males. In the baboon pack the one with the most inflamed red butt usually strutts his stuff the loudest-the more inflammed and red it is, the more attractive he is to the females in his pack.

Primates chatter and bear their teeth and make loud noises and jump up and down but its usually because they are frightened - they have a primal fear of life forms other then their own.

I quite frankly think the most effective way to deal with this may not be reason but a banana. I say that not to insult, just be realistic.

You really have to ramp up your attempts at sarcasm. Poorly executed sarcasm just makes the delivery suck and the deliveree look foolish.

[jazzer]

My background constitutes the third largest ethnic group in Canada, yet I don't see my a TV channel or two specifically for us,

Try this.

[kengs333]

Incidently, I have researched this author....

You must have pretty poor research skills.

My professors never thought so. So if I had to choose between them and some crank trying to pass him- (or her-)self off as an anthro gradstudent, I'd go with the former.

[kengs333]

I am sure we can all agree Senator Romeo Dallaire is someone not even ScottUSA can disparage although I am sure he can if he wants to. In April of 2007 Sen. Dallaire stated that Canada's treatment of its aboriginal children is a" national total disgrace".

What about the Indian treatment of their own children? Where does that fit in? I think that the problem is that many people like to buy into the myth of the noble savage, and like to pump up their own self-righteous liberal egos by sympathizing with these poor people whose supposedly idylic, eco-friendly cultures were ruined by averous Judeo-Christian Europeans. These self-righteous liberals of course can entertain such notions because the very people they despise have made our society possible; they neither have to live in poverty, be denied education, or live in filthy disease- and pest-ridden environments. In other words, the "idylic" circumstances that the Indians once found themselves in.

I'm all for everyone being raised to the same level so as a society we can evolve and improve; but living in the past, trying to drag everyone back down to the same misguided and base level as before is not doing anyone any good.

[kengs333]

Ah....the Crucifixion...You do know that Rev. Kevin Annett copied and exposed to the public the documents that the United Church had in their archives that recorded the deaths and the abuses committed by minsters and lay people at the schools under their control? The UCC destroyed the originals after being called on the genocide and Kevin Annett was ostracized from the church. However, he still retains copies that are to be entered into evidence at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission once it gets started next year. His evidence is only one part of the total collective indictment of genocide against Canada. As well, even though there has been an initial payment under the Residential School Experience fund, the rest of the lawsuits and stories have only just begun to be told. Expect a steady stream of witnesses to the murders to the abuse and survivors of abuse to come forward.

Nothing I've seen about this has revealed any of these supposed documents.

[raz395]

Nothing I've seen about this has revealed any of these supposed documents.

I have heard about this and watched the film link in first post here. I think Posit is right: The church got rid of Kevin Annett, and refuses to acknowledge his research. The government pretends it knows nothing of children who died, but the evidence of deaths in the stories of survivors and families of children who didn't come home is pretty irrefutable.

It seems to me it is a story that has not been told to Canadians.

[M.Dancer]

I have heard about this and watched the film link in first post here. I think Posit is right: The church got rid of Kevin Annett, and refuses to acknowledge his research. The government pretends it knows nothing of children who died, but the evidence of deaths in the stories of survivors and families of children who didn't come home is pretty irrefutable.

It seems to me it is a story that has not been told to Canadians.

Then there would be thousands of stories but there are not....there would be thousands of graves but there are none.

This belongs in the scrap heap of conspiracy theories........

[kengs333]

I have heard about this and watched the film link in first post here. I think Posit is right: The church got rid of Kevin Annett, and refuses to acknowledge his research. The government pretends it knows nothing of children who died, but the evidence of deaths in the stories of survivors and families of children who didn't come home is pretty irrefutable.

It seems to me it is a story that has not been told to Canadians.

I think the term "pretty irrefutable" is somewhat disigenuous. I don't think that there has ever been a denial that Indian children sometimes died at residential schools, and that Indian children were sent to hospitals in an effort to cure illnesses and some died. Life isn't perfect, and things like that happen sometimes, you know--it certainly happened to many non-Indian children during this period. Why? Because there weren't cures for these illnesses. The problem is that some people have got set in their minds that any Indian that died of any cause following the arrival of European traders/explorers was "murdered" and therefore were victims of "genocide". It's an outrageous theory devoid of logic; but just like Hitler's Jew-bating, it resonates with a large number of people because it fits into a shared cultural experience.

To say that it is not a story that has been told to Canadians is also somewhat disingenuous; I've seen and read much about this sort of thing, but it's the "genocide" twist that is what is really makes appear "untold".

Whatever the case, to my knowledge, NONE of these purported "copies" (fabricated?) documents has been released; and all requests to see proof that these things exist have been ignored.

Edited November 29, 2007 by kengs333

[raz395]

I think the term "pretty irrefutable" is somewhat disigenuous. I don't think that there has ever been a denial that Indian children sometimes died at residential schools, and that Indian children were sent to hospitals in an effort to cure illnesses and some died. Life isn't perfect, and things like that happen sometimes, you know--it certainly happened to many non-Indian children during this period. Why? Because there weren't cures for these illnesses. The problem is that some people have got set in their minds that any Indian that died of any cause following the arrival of European traders/explorers was "murdered" and therefore were victims of "genocide". It's an outrageous theory devoid of logic; but just like Hitler's Jew-bating, it resonates with a large number of people because it fits into a shared cultural experience.

To say that it is not a story that has been told to Canadians is also somewhat disingenuous; I've seen and read much about this sort of thing, but it's the "genocide" twist that is what is really makes appear "untold".

Whatever the case, to my knowledge, NONE of these purported "copies" (fabricated?) documents has been released; and all requests to see proof that these things exist have been ignored.

I speak from what I saw in the film. Perhaps if you addressed the information presented there, we could discuss it from the same perspective.

MDancer It appears that the stories exist (see film). As for the graves, it appears they are unmarked.

For good reasons, I may be much less likely to believe in the 'pure and noble intentions' of our governments than some people. To me this is entirely believable, and fits with other disturbing information:

The rate of death from tuberculosis was, by a huge margin, the highest death rate from tuberculosis ever seen anywhere in the world, a death rate simply never attained by normal transmission, reflecting deliberate, not accidental infection.

[M.Dancer]

perspective.

MDancer It appears that the stories exist (see film). As for the graves, it appears they are unmarked.

There are thousands of stories? And these unmarked graves then are undiscovered.

Proof that doesn't exist is not evidence. Given that the media, when on the scent of a story can uncover factual accounts of real abuse, both in he church and in the gov't, the abscence of any invetigation is telling. There is no story, only a conspiracy theory. Well there may be a story about a conspiracy theory, but not one that I think the proponenst would like.

[raz395]

There are thousands of stories? And these unmarked graves then are undiscovered.

Proof that doesn't exist is not evidence. Given that the media, when on the scent of a story can uncover factual accounts of real abuse, both in he church and in the gov't, the abscence of any invetigation is telling. There is no story, only a conspiracy theory. Well there may be a story about a conspiracy theory, but not one that I think the proponenst would like.

That's interesting, isn't it ... that few news hounds have scoped this out. It is a pretty dangerous story to flirt with I would think, considering what happened to the Minister in the film. I can't imagine any of the news people I know of wanting to get involved. Everybody needs their paycheque.

[M.Dancer]

That's interesting, isn't it ... that few news hounds have scoped this out. It is a pretty dangerous story to flirt with I would think, considering what happened to the Minister in the film. I can't imagine any of the news people I know of wanting to get involved. Everybody needs their paycheque.

The minister got booted becasue he's nuts. Who has covered this story? Which journalists do you know? I know dozens and would give their eye teeth for a ground breaking story. And some have broke ground and have been in courts over it.....Perosnally though I think most would rather dance with bears than get couaght in a tinfoil hat conspiracy

[Rue]

You really have to ramp up your attempts at sarcasm. Poorly executed sarcasm just makes the delivery suck and the deliveree look foolish.

Ah the exchange of fleas between two primates. How's that?

[Rue]

Incidently, I have researched this author....

You must have pretty poor research skills.

Well he did research to find out I have the same relatives he has. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Lazarus]

Should have left them in the stone age, think of the hassels it would save now.

So we owe them for the schools, alright, that's reasonable, living people only with evidence. But first, they need to collectively pay for all the property damage and crime they've caused in Canada. Every last penny. If I'm expected to shoulder a collective expense on racial grounds, so can the Indians.

That's mighty white of you jeff.

[kengs333]

For good reasons, I may be much less likely to believe in the 'pure and noble intentions' of our governments than some people. To me this is entirely believable, and fits with other disturbing information:

The rate of death from tuberculosis was, by a huge margin, the highest death rate from tuberculosis ever seen anywhere in the world, a death rate simply never attained by normal transmission, reflecting deliberate, not accidental infection.

No, I wouldn't say that the government ever has "pure and noble intentions" when it comes to anything, but I think that the government does--and often has no choice but to have--good intentions in many cases; it was clear by the early 19th century that the Indians weren't going to adapt to the modern world as had been expected, and the government had to undertake steps to facilitate this transition. Canada being a Christian country--in theory, at least--organized religious groups were allowed to be involved in this endeavour, although I don't think that this is the best way to spread the word of God, and the consequences speak for themselves. On the surface it may seem a little callous, but what were the alternatives? Allow a large group of people in Canada to remain functionally illiterate, incapable to interacting with the modern world, and dependent on a bygone way of life life? Of course the reserve system has caused many problems and many people have suffered much as a result, but is not part of the problem that it was an attempt to maintain the distinct identity of various Indian groups? Needless to say, this is a strange way of perpetrating a genocide: maintaining distinct and ethnically pure reservations all throughout the country, feed, clothe, educate, etc. the people therein.

Again, where is the evidence for this "deliberate... infection"? Could we at least see some stats on TB deaths among Indians and how it differed from non-Indians. And could the higher death rate not have been a result of the same biological factors that made the spread of disease among Indians communities more deadly.

[raz395]

No, I wouldn't say that the government ever has "pure and noble intentions" when it comes to anything, but I think that the government does--and often has no choice but to have--good intentions in many cases; it was clear by the early 19th century that the Indians weren't going to adapt to the modern world as had been expected, and the government had to undertake steps to facilitate this transition. Canada being a Christian country--in theory, at least--organized religious groups were allowed to be involved in this endeavour, although I don't think that this is the best way to spread the word of God, and the consequences speak for themselves. On the surface it may seem a little callous, but what were the alternatives? Allow a large group of people in Canada to remain functionally illiterate, incapable to interacting with the modern world, and dependent on a bygone way of life life? Of course the reserve system has caused many problems and many people have suffered much as a result, but is not part of the problem that it was an attempt to maintain the distinct identity of various Indian groups? Needless to say, this is a strange way of perpetrating a genocide: maintaining distinct and ethnically pure reservations all throughout the country, feed, clothe, educate, etc. the people therein.

Again, where is the evidence for this "deliberate... infection"? Could we at least see some stats on TB deaths among Indians and how it differed from non-Indians. And could the higher death rate not have been a result of the same biological factors that made the spread of disease among Indians communities more deadly.

Hey look ... I came late to this discussion and I watched the film. Might I suggest you do likewise before making up your own story?

Even I know the churches were here doing their 'convert the heathens' schtick, to acquire land and riches for their church, LONG before Canada existed.

The proof of intentional infection is the deliberate failure to segregate children who were ill and reports of deliverate placement of well children in bed with ill children. Some former students also report infection by injection of entire rooms of children, all of whom died.

Scary to think this happened in Canada. Does the current government know, do you think?

[Riverwind]

The proof of intentional infection is the deliberate failure to segregate children who were ill and reports of deliverate placement of well children in bed with ill children.

That is not proof of intentional infection. At best, it is proof of inadequate facilities. It is scary that small minded zealots seek to grossly exaggerated historical tragedies for political gain.

[raz395]

That is not proof of intentional infection. At best, it is proof of inadequate facilities. It is scary that small minded zealots seek to grossly exaggerated historical tragedies for political gain.

Well, this was a report of the Medical Examiner I believe, but you can evaluate that for your self if you've watched the film.

[Riverwind]

Well, this was a report of the Medical Examiner I believe, but you can evaluate that for your self if you've watched the film.

A medical examiner is not is any position to comment on intent. Negligence maybe but not intent. I suspect he did not make any claim about intent. Edited December 1, 2007 by Riverwind

[raz395]

History

During the early decades of the 20th century, a terrible epidemic of tuberculosis (TB) occurred in the Canadian First Nations population. It is probable that First Nations people had less immunity to European strains of TB, and drugs to cure TB were not yet available. Malnutrition increased the risk of disease, and confinement on crowded reservations allowed the disease to spread rapidly. Death rates were in excess of 700 per 100,000, among the highest ever reported in a human population. Death rates from TB meningitis in children aged 0-4 years ranged from 500 to 2000 per 100,000, and overall TB death rates among children in residential schools were as high as 8000 per 100,000, during the 1930s and 1940s.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fnih-spni/diseases-...i_commun_e.html

My question is ... If the 700 per 100,000 in the villages was "among the highest ever reported in a human population.", then what could more than 10 times that rate be? ... the 8000 per 100,000 death rate in the residential schools?

And why would the medical examiner say in 1908(?) that it was deliberate?

And it only increased after that.

Good grief.

[Riverwind]

And why would the medical examiner say in 1908(?) that it was deliberate?

The examiner said no such thing. Crowded conditions, poor nutrition and less immunity combined to result in a large number of deaths. You can argue for negligence but not intent. I don't understand why you think you have something to gain by exaggerating what happened.

[raz395]

The examiner said no such thing. Crowded conditions, poor nutrition and less immunity combined to result in a large number of deaths. You can argue for negligence but not intent.

Are you certain of that?

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/mort_rate_index.html

An addendum to Dr. Bryce's 1907 report, dated November 5, 1909, in which Bryce submits more data to show a 50% death rate in Alberta residential schools. The same report states that Indian children were being deliberately exposed to tuberculosis and other communicable diseases, and then left to die unattended by church and residential school staff. According to Dr. Bryce, the facts of these murders were deliberately suppressed by the same staff, in collusion with government Indian agents. (P.D. Bryce, report to DIA Assistant Superintendent Frank Pedley, Nov. 5, 1909, Ottawa)

This is interesting ... a CTV production ...

http://ca.share.geocities.com/annetttruth/truth.mov

Edited December 1, 2007 by raz395