Political "Green Belt" Emerging in Ontario ?

[kengs333]

Very interesting results from this election in terms of votes for the Green Party. Starting with Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound, where the candidate placed second with 33.52% of the vote, the Green Party managed to place third in a distinct block of ridings, in which they received at least 10% of the vote in all but one (Barrie - 9.51%) of the seven other ridings. The question is, is this the result of increased concern for the environment or acceptance of Green Party platform in this ridings, or is it the result of discontent with the PC party?

Edited October 11, 2007 by kengs333

[jennie]

Very interesting results from this election in terms of votes for the Green Party. Starting with Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound, where the candidate placed second with 33.52% of the vote, the Green Party managed to place third in a distinct block of ridings, in which they received at least 10% of the vote in all but one (Barrie - 9.51%) of the seven other ridings. The question is, is this the result of increased concern for the environment or acceptance of Green Party platform in this ridings, or is it the result of discontent with the PC party?

Isn't that interesting. I had heard a movement afoot in that area, and I am amazed to see how clear it is!

Most of the farmers in the province have had a sign saying "STOP development" on the farmland, something like that, so that is a big 'green' issue there. I was told there is distrust of Stephen Harper in these areas because he silenced their elected representatives. These lifelong conservatives think that is a dangerous oppression of the democracy they fought for, and it frightened them.

Thanks kengs.

[M.Dancer]

All the political party leaders must love the Greens (Exception H.Hampton) for the wonderful work they have done placing themselves on the map (symbolically, anyway).

Without the splendid work they did in this campaign the NDP would have won 7 more seats.

Timiskaming C

Thunder Bay

Ottawa Centre

Oshawa

Hamilton Mountain

Davenport

York South Weston.

I wish them similar success in the federal election where the lines are blurred further by Dion's own ideological confusion.

[Canadian Blue]

Hardly, the results showed that the Liberals and PC's both lost a portion of the popular vote, and it evenly went to the Greens and NDP. If their was no Green Party, I'd imagine those people would just stay home.

However this could also be the result of discontent with the current state of the political system.

[M.Dancer]

Hardly, the results showed that the Liberals and PC's both lost a portion of the popular vote, and it evenly went to the Greens and NDP. If their was no Green Party, I'd imagine those people would just stay home.

Which people...the people who used to vote Liberal and PCs and voted NDP and green, they would have stayed home if there were no Greens? What about the NDP swing voters, they would have stayed home too? You honestly think a PC swing voter would suddenly vote for a left or far left party? Be serious.....

The PCs and Libs lost 7.7% of the pop vote.

The NDP and Green picked up 6.4%

In the end, vote splitting by the greens caused the NDP to lose 7 seats. End of Story and well done Greens.

[Canadian Blue]

Which people...the people who used to vote Liberal and PCs and voted NDP and green, they would have stayed home if there were no Greens?

No, their is an ideological difference between the NDP and the Green Party, and if we look at the popular vote it showed that the percentage of the vote rose equally for both the Greens and NDP. You're presuming that Green party supporters would be NDP if their was no Green Party, however the Greens have been successful at getting support from the three parties. So to say that if their was no Green Party the NDP would have picked up an extra 7 seats isn't correct and is simply based on an assumption.

[M.Dancer]

No, their is an ideological difference between the NDP and the Green Party, and if we look at the popular vote it showed that the percentage of the vote rose equally for both the Greens and NDP. You're presuming that Green party supporters would be NDP if their was no Green Party, however the Greens have been successful at getting support from the three parties. So to say that if their was no Green Party the NDP would have picked up an extra 7 seats isn't correct and is simply based on an assumption.

And saying that rightwing conservatives have been migrating to the leftwing greens isn't an assumption?

[Canadian Blue]

No, however it could be assumed that Red Tories have been migrating to the Greens. Not all members of the Progressive Conservatve party are "right wing". I'm simply basing this off of where the popular vote ended up migrating to on election night, and I think that even without the Greens the New Democrats would not have picked up 7 seats. They might have gained two or three, but not seven.

[M.Dancer]

Has the Green Machine lost it's (biofueled) steam?

But Nelson Wiseman, political science professor at the University of Toronto, said he was confident that despite the Greens' stronger-than-expected performance during this campaign, the single-issue party has plateaued and the party will have trouble gaining momentum in future elections.

"What's happened is that environmentalism has been incorporated into the discourse of all the parties - it's like health care. So they've become neutralized."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ection2007/home

And you know for sure that the Greens were syphoning off the left wing vote when the two parties wrangle over which is the most lefty.......

The Green buzz seemed to be confirmed when Hampton, late in the campaign, warned left-leaning voters against their "right-wing, conservative philosophy," including plans to privatize health care and other public services.

That drew a suitably angry public rebuttal from the usually upbeat and positive de Jong, a part-time elementary school music and shop teacher. "Hampton is spreading disinformation by saying such things," he said at a St. Catharines campaign stop. At the same time, he was delighted with the attention the spat produced.

http://www.thestar.com/OntarioElection/article/265713

[geoffrey]

Independants often score higher. This is nothing. Let us know when they actually win a seat.

[jennie]

Has the Green Machine lost it's (biofueled) steam?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ection2007/home

And you know for sure that the Greens were syphoning off the left wing vote when the two parties wrangle over which is the most lefty.......

http://www.thestar.com/OntarioElection/article/265713

M. Dancer, the Greens are definitely capitalist, with neo-Liberal ideas about the 'marketplace' so they are not traditional 'lefties'.

[M.Dancer]

M. Dancer, the Greens are definitely capitalist, with neo-Liberal ideas about the 'marketplace' so they are not traditional 'lefties'.

Have you met Mr Shavluk then?....Anyway, capitalists aren't usually so eager to embrace policies that will bankrupt them...hence their lack of support overall and from capitalists in particular.

[kengs333]

And saying that rightwing conservatives have been migrating to the leftwing greens isn't an assumption?

During the election coverage on CBC they profiled a few e-mails in which people claiming to be PC stated that they voted Green Party. When you think of it, this is quite logical; it's the NDP that is on the opposite end of the political spectrum, and voting for the Liberals would be voting for one's arch enemy. The Greens are a legitimate option because many of their economic policies are conservative, their concern about agriculture and urban sprawl is something that appeals to people living in rural regions, they are a major party and voting for them as opposed to a fringe party may result in representation, as it almost did in Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound. The Greens have always styled themselves as neither left nor right. How often have I heard the Greens being refered to as "leftwing"? It only reflect's the accuser's lack of political understanding and their own political stripe.

[kengs333]

Have you met Mr Shavluk then?....Anyway, capitalists aren't usually so eager to embrace policies that will bankrupt them...hence their lack of support overall and from capitalists in particular.

Some people join the party to push their own single-issue. If you care to read his other posts and those that he has deposited on other message forums, then you'd realize what led him to join the Green Party and just how insincere he is about the welfare of the party. Why he is elected in his riding is a matter for that specific riding association; I know little about the process that brought this about, but I would assume that many of marijuana smoking buddies had something to do with it. So does he really represent the the Green Party voters in that riding--probably not. The riding never does all that well, and my guess is that a significant number of traditional Green Party voters in the riding switched to a different party.

[kengs333]

Has the Green Machine lost it's (biofueled) steam?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ection2007/home

That article is pretty much a joke; one day after the elction it's predicting the rapid decline of the Green Partyof Ontario--erroniously referred to as a "single-issue party"--based on what?--the fact that it had it's best showing ever in an election? The environment was a non-issue in the election, and always has been with the Liberals and PC, who only pay lip-service to the issue. Even if these parties step up their rhetoric, they will only be able to do so within the framework of their parties' archaic approach to the issue. Neither of these parties will be able to address the issue to the satisfaction of people who have a serious concern about the environment. I think what is more likely is that people from other parties will start migrating to the Green Party, thus making them more mainstream. I stated a few weeks ago that the Green Party will eventually work its way into the role of "third party" at the expense of the NDP. This will probably occur in the 2011 election.

[M.Dancer]

That article is pretty much a joke; one day after the elction it's predicting the rapid decline of the Green Partyof Ontario--erroniously referred to as a "single-issue party"--based on what?--

It is a single issue party. It comes up with other issues as an after thought, becuase, well, they have to....sometimes by law students who offer themselves as Justice critics......

[kengs333]

It is a single issue party. It comes up with other issues as an after thought, becuase, well, they have to....sometimes by law students who offer themselves as Justice critics......

Again you're talking from a perspective of wishful thinking and political unsophistication. Categorizing things based on your own stilted political ideology rather than trying to look at issues from an objective manner doesn't accomplish much in a political discussion. Political parties arise largely because there are a group of people with a different perspective on issues, not because they want to push a "single-issue". The Green Party emerged because there were a number of people who had a similar belief that a party had to exist that addressed a number of different issues from a different perspective, namely that the environment, a healthy environment, was the key unifying factor; issues included--pollutions, climate, overfishing/whaling, animal species extinction, deforestation, oragnic agriculture, animal rights, women's rights, Native rights, minoritiy rights, preventative healthcare, anti-Capitalism, etc. etc. These were ALL issues that have been part of the Green Party's platform from its beginning. The idea that it is a "single-issue party" is a gross misconception, and the fact that you insist that this is the case only looks bad on you.

Edited October 12, 2007 by kengs333

[Higgly]

Very interesting results from this election in terms of votes for the Green Party. Starting with Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound, where the candidate placed second with 33.52% of the vote, the Green Party managed to place third in a distinct block of ridings, in which they received at least 10% of the vote in all but one (Barrie - 9.51%) of the seven other ridings. The question is, is this the result of increased concern for the environment or acceptance of Green Party platform in this ridings, or is it the result of discontent with the PC party?

This is a part of the province that makes a lot of its living from the natural environment. We have the natural harbour at Tobermory that is perpetually filled with big boats owned by big spenders, we have the cottage crowd, and we have the tree-hugger crowd that goes up to the Bruce Peninsula National Park - one of the most difficult in the country to get a campsite in during the summer - and likes to hike the splendid Niagara Escarpment trails. Plus the rest of the area is filled with farmers who bite their nails over the weather out of professional necessity. Voila, a natural environment for the Greens. I have to wonder whether the Green Party's stance on faith-based schooling (eliminate separate schools) might have hurt them to the extent that the candidate (Jolley) lost votes. I don't think the PC candidate they elected is going to get a lot more done for them, although I could be wrong. I agree that the Greens are a one issue party, but this was their best chance.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Higgly

[mikedavid00]

It is a single issue party. It comes up with other issues as an after thought, becuase, well, they have to....sometimes by law students who offer themselves as Justice critics......

I agree.

[jennie]

This is a part of the province that makes a lot of its living from the natural environment. We have the natural harbour at Tobermory that is perpetually filled with big boats owned by big spenders, we have the cottage crowd, and we have the tree-hugger crowd that goes up to the Bruce Peninsula National Park - one of the most difficult in the country to get a campsite in during the summer - and likes to hike the splendid Niagara Escarpment trails. Plus the rest of the area is filled with farmers who bite their nails over the weather out of professional necessity. Voila, a natural environment for the Greens. I have to wonder whether the Green Party's stance on faith-based schooling (eliminate separate schools) might have hurt them to the extent that the candidate (Jolley) lost votes. I don't think the PC candidate they elected is going to get a lot more done for them, although I could be wrong. I agree that the Greens are a one issue party, but this was their best chance.

And it is a part of the province that I am attached to, so I am absolutely delighted at this 'Green' belt turn of events!

Not that I am necessarily a Green supporter, but a breath of fresh air is welcome I think. We are talking about new generations of farmers now, many of whom have degrees in agriculture. I am positive there must be a heavy environment focus in ag these days. We are also talking about more and more boomer retirees, e.g., BlueMtn-Collingwood-Wasaga's ski-sail-beach community) who, having made their money off it now want to preserve the rest of the environment for themselves.jk They are also filling up their cottage-country retirement retreats year-round.

The 'environment' may be a single issue, but is it our human environment we are talking about, the one that supports human life. All else must necessarily flow from that. That is what the Green Party is prepared to address, as I understand it:

How do we sustain our environment ... and thus human life (duh) ... in the free market?

(I see green kengs thinks they are anti-capitalist ... I would have to see the evidence for that.)

[margrace]

Yes Jennie, having some of those young well educated farmers in the family, I agree with you. They are more environmentally friendly and more concerned with what is happening to farm land and the climate in general.

The big factory farms, on the other hand, owned by big business, usually conservative, do not really care what happens to the land.

[M.Dancer]

Political parties arise largely because there are a group of people with a different perspective on issues, not because they want to push a "single-issue".

Huh?

Like the Reform Party, Bloc Quebecois, Parti Quebecois.........etc etc etc

[ScottSA]

Again you're talking from a perspective of wishful thinking and political unsophistication. Categorizing things based on your own stilted political ideology rather than trying to look at issues from an objective manner doesn't accomplish much in a political discussion. Political parties arise largely because there are a group of people with a different perspective on issues, not because they want to push a "single-issue". The Green Party emerged because there were a number of people who had a similar belief that a party had to exist that addressed a number of different issues from a different perspective, namely that the environment, a healthy environment, was the key unifying factor; issues included--pollutions, climate, overfishing/whaling, animal species extinction, deforestation, oragnic agriculture, animal rights, women's rights, Native rights, minoritiy rights, preventative healthcare, anti-Captisalism, etc. etc. These were ALL issues that have been part of the Green Party's platform from its beginning. The idea that it is a "single-issue party" is a gross misconception, and the fact that you insist that this is the case only looks bad on you.

You have just demonstrated it's single-issuedness by breaking down the single issue into subcategories and claiming that therefore it's not a single issue. Rather like starting a "Car Party" and then, when challenged that it's a single issue party, pointing out that bumpers, windshields and wheels are seperate issues, and therefore the party covers a broad spectrum. The "Green" Party is even named for its issue. Obviously its tip o' the hat to other issues is simply plastered on rhetoric, as evidenced by the confusion over its ideological base; you claim it's anti-capitalist, while jennie thinks it's pro-business, and Shavluk thinks it's stoned or something.

[jennie]

The 'environment' is not a single issue: It is the focal point of all issues, preserving the earth in order to preserve human life.

The economy must serve the needs of the human environment. Otherwise, it has no purpose.

[kengs333]

You have just demonstrated it's single-issuedness by breaking down the single issue into subcategories and claiming that therefore it's not a single issue. Rather like starting a "Car Party" and then, when challenged that it's a single issue party, pointing out that bumpers, windshields and wheels are seperate issues, and therefore the party covers a broad spectrum. The "Green" Party is even named for its issue. Obviously its tip o' the hat to other issues is simply plastered on rhetoric, as evidenced by the confusion over its ideological base; you claim it's anti-capitalist, while jennie thinks it's pro-business, and Shavluk thinks it's stoned or something.

The way you talk about it--"other issues is simply plastered on rhetoric"--every political party in Canada, then, is a "single-issue" party. (Doesn't the PCs exist simply to preserve the status quo for Big Business and elites?) The issues that I list may mostly be interconnected, but that doesn't mean that the Green Party is any more a "single-issue" party than any of the other major parties; that's the reality of life. Everything in this world is connected. People who run for and vote for the Green Party don't spend their days in tree houses only worrying about the environment, pollution and ignore everything else. They're concerned about every issue under the sun, be it crime, healthcare, education, the economy. These concerns have always been reflected in the Green Party platform, and haven't just been tacked on for greater voter appeal. Whatever the case, the Green Party has shown once again that it is a legitimate political force in the province and won't be going away any time soon. Too bad, eh?