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Merry Christmas!


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And to all those of the left, Happy Holidays!!

Actually, the word holiday means HOLY - DAY. So even that is blasphamy to a true athiest. In the story below, scenes of the Nativity were replaced by pagan idols of trees, snowmen and some God named Santa. Sinners all and should be burned at the stake of political correctness.


Andrea Skoros (search) sued the New York City public school system after being told her kids' Nativity scene could not be a part of the holiday display although a Hanukkah menorah (search) and the star and crescent representing Islam could be exhibited.
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The world is going to hell in a hand-basket.

This is a pretty sad time ladies and gents. I'm not religious, but I don't give a flying sh*t if there is a nativity scene on every corner, or if there is somebody handing out brochures about Christianity in the malls.

In some parts of the world it's one religion or none. You can't go around and try to force people into believing one certain religion, you would be jailed for that. I guess this is the price we have to pay for the diverse and multicultural western world we live in.

So, have a good Christmas, or whatever you celebrate, and we can all look forward to the new year...maybe.


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Well Christianity and religion in general are on the defensive. I blame the following elements for this:

1. the Church itself - supernatural nonsense, apocryphal writings, bad translations and the construction of untruths only detract from its power. The Church should be honest about the real story of Christ, the real values contained in the Bible and dispense with otherwordly, phenomena. It does not wash and turns people off the church.

2. social liberalism. This is the ultimate 'relativity' theory of social construction. Nothing matters, all is equal, all is shared, all is good. This largely immoral construct informs and perverts everything from education to foreign policy.

3. lack of historical understanding. Most people living today have nary a clue about what produced the society they live in, what makes societies rich and prosperous and what values permeate Westernism. As such they are more preoccupied with American Idol, than the pro's and con's of Idol-atry.

People should know more about the real nature of the Church, its history and Chrestusianitity - and what it meant between 60 AD and 325 AD [Council of Niceae], and how the Bible, the gospels and the word were really built, by whom and why. Politics, power, social forces and human greed all played the major roles in the Construction of the Bible, the Church and the RC Chuch.

A little reality injection would do religion a lot of good.

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In some parts of the world it's one religion or none. You can't go around and try to force people into believing one certain religion, you would be jailed for that. I guess this is the price we have to pay for the diverse and multicultural western world we live in.

And in a good part of the Western world, including ours, this one-religion push is going on as well. Which religion? Secularism.

Craig, you are right that we should steep ourselves in history, but make sure it is not of the revisionist kind!

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I would argue and could historical evidence from some large brained people such as Newton, Einstein, Da Vinci, Copernicus and Churchill that secular Christianity is possible and a more 'rationale' approach than following Chuch doctrine.

Church history, including the Bible is full of revisionism, insertions of myths, half truths, paradoxically statements and just plain incorrect information. The Bible and Church documents are the ultimate in revisionist historicism.

The Church does itself no favors by whitewashing history, elevating dirty old men as near gods, and embracing mysticism. It would be more useful, productive and enlightening as well as attractive for new adherents to present reality, not superstition as the base of church doctrine.

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Secular Christ. has nothing to do with revisionism - in fact the opposite. It accepts the issues, problems, Church revisionism and ravings of Church demagogues by dismissing fantasy from reality. S.C. invokes the tenets and spirit of Christ. and rejects its supernaturality. It has nothing to do with PC or revisionism - in fact it supports the exact opposite. It has little time for social liberalism in all its forms, nor does it support moral equivalency and relative theories.

It is named 'rational humanism'. Erasmus, Descartes, Newton, and even Churchill believed in this melange.

You are confused.

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i actually like some serious christmas presentations about historical lands and the people of the time because its just interesting to learn about the early days of civilization.

as for getting all wound up about some people choosing to stay religion neutral, i would propose that if all the true christians who are so offended by this, were actually living thier lives to the level most religions say to, they wouldnt have the time or inclination to complain about this silly stuff. which leads me to believe most people who hang thier hat on religion so publicly have no credibility on the issue anyways. a true christian would be a great person who would strike awe into most of us.


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Secular Christ. has nothing to do with revisionism - in fact the opposite.  It accepts the issues, problems, Church revisionism and ravings of Church demagogues by dismissing fantasy from reality.  S.C. invokes the tenets and spirit of Christ. and rejects its supernaturality.  It has nothing to do with PC or revisionism - in fact it supports the exact opposite.  It has little time for social liberalism in all its forms, nor does it support moral equivalency and relative theories.

It is named 'rational humanism'.  Erasmus, Descartes, Newton, and even Churchill believed in this melange.

So, who gets to say what this melange may include or not? Churchill, Einstein, some other large-brained individual? Did Jesus Christ really say, "Your sins are forgiven" or not? Did He say, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more," or not? Or, "I am the resurrection and the life," or "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Which parts of the account of Jesus' life and words may a well-meaning secular Christian dispose of? Is it up to his conscience? His reasoning? Is your conscience/reasoning better than mine when it comes to deciding what is to be included or not? Shall we come to the same conclusions tomorrow or a generation hence? At some point, the Church fathers had to go through this process and came up with the Bible as we know it today. Should we keep iterating this process as needed? What's so unrevisionist about that? Oh, I get it: in your upside-down world, this is construed as reverse revisionism.

The essence of Christianity is that God, in His great love, came down from heaven in the person of Jesus Christ to share our humanity, so that we may one day share in His divinity. Hence, through Jesus Christ, we are no longer slaves, but children of God, and if children, heirs. On what does rational humanism base its valuation of individual human life? Where does it choose to draw the line on this valuation--at the moment the umbilical cord is cut until the last sentient thought? Or at the point of viability, wherever current technology may define that at a given moment and place? Or based on how much the mother wants this child, never mind the father, and give the mother a year or so to change her mind one more time...

Rational humanism is all about Me in the place of God. It espouses some sort of Golden Rule to be self-limiting, so that others may have an "equal" chance. The problem is that the definition of "the other" can be manipulated as the "compassionate" humanist sees fit. The very term "compassion" is loosely defined and easily distorted to mean whatever seems reasonable to me. Human reason has its purpose. It also has its limitations, and its deceptions, as history shows. If it does not subject itself to a higher moral authority, we are scattered in the confusion of our thoughts, carried by the drift of popular thinking and evolving trends.

a true christian would be a great person who would strike awe into most of us.

Not necessarily, especially if you follow Craig's thinking of discarding the more fantastic aspects of Christianity as delusional. Each one has been given different gifts, some more public than others, some so quietly hidden that it takes many years after a person's demise to become recognized, sometimes never known but to God. Whatever the case, we are each obliged to deliver according to our gifts.

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Nice post widowsmite. A little fiery, but it's good to show some conviction.

a true christian would be a great person who would strike awe into most of us.

Sirriff, on this one, you are absolutely right. A true Christian would be one of the greatest, and he probably would be very forgiving of those who secularize Christmas, although he wouldn't see the point of it.

However, here we touch on what widowsmite is saying. Why is the true Christian such a wonderful person? Because Christ is the center. He or she realizes how much Christ gave us, thus, he or she wants to give. They realize what Christ was forgiving, and thus they will forgive (yes, Christ did throw the vendors out of the temple, but while I'm sure he forgave them, I doubt he was about to let them continue defiling his fathers house. You can kick someone out of your house without a grudge. On a previous thread Craig made the comment that Christ's teachings weren't new. It's true. They weren't. However, it's Christ who brought them forward to the world as we know it today. Long before anyone in Europe had a clue about Confucianism or Buddhism (besides superstitious myths of barbarians) people knew of Christianity. They knew Christ's words.

However, knowing them isn't enough. You have to have something behind it, and Christ is that something. No one could ever live perfectly, even by those standards. It's the love of Christ, his mercy, that gives the inspiration necessary to be that true Christian. An atheist may be able to accept Christianity if there was no miracles, no God, but I need god to be a part of it. I need his mercy and I need his love. I don't do it out of guilt but gratitude. That's what makes me want to be that true Christian. It's the pure love of Christ, and it's Christ who helps me find that love.

As for the Bible and it's composition, I can listen to both sides on this one. The Bible did come from many sources (most of which I believe to be God inspired), and were then compiled. However, there are so many translations, and then interpretations of those translations. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons that Christianity is so divided. I was rather disturbed when I walked into a local bookstore and then saw "the Skaters Bible" and yes, it was supposed to be a Bible. In my oppinion, that's where prayer comes in (see James 1:5). I study my Scriptures, both in times of need and just casually, and always with prayer that I get the correct meaning. It actually has been quite helpful.

As for the Catholic Church, I'm no Catholic, for various reasons that don't really need to be stated, but I have no quarrel with them. They are one of the few Churches who believe they actually have some line of authority from Christ, which I respect. I have a great respect for Protestants as well, as their Churches are usually a bit more perfectionist (I have a long range goal of being perfect.) While I do have my disagreements with the Catholic Church, I'm willing to acknowledge the good they do.

Secular Christianity, I fail to see the point of it. Yes, you are taught the morals, but you loose the heart and soul of it. If all you see in Christianity is rules about how you should live, you miss a great deal of the message. Theirs a reason they call it the Gospel-good news. Christianity has not only helped morality, but it is in the roots of our culture, both morally, politically, and artisticly. The santa-claus-rudolph aspect of Christmas are cute, but for me, it's message, that makes the difference. While "Jolly Old Saint Nicholas" "Rudolph the Red-nosed reindeer" and "Santa Baby" maybe light and cheerful, it's O Holy Night and the Messiah that are moving. You can have a nice secular Christmas if you want, but you are missing out.

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Christianity is symbolized by the cross, on which Jesus Christ was crucified. The cross has profound meaning. It has a vertical axis that denotes man's relationship with God: man looks up to God, the Supreme Being, and this God came down to earth to share our humanity so we may one day rise to share His divinity. It has a horizontal axis that denotes man's relationship to his fellowman, a relationship of equality. The cross also brings to mind the two most important commandments: 1 (vertical) You shall love God above all else, with your whole heart and mind and soul; and 2 (horizontal) You shall love your neighbour as Christ loved you.

"Secular Christianity" proposes to do without the vertical axis, retaining only the horizontal. It fails to see how the vertical axis centers the horizontal, anchors it steadfastly to the ground, lifts it way up, and maintains the balance. Remove the vertical axis and what do you have? A lopsided beam that sinks quickly to the earth, caked in dirt, shifting with the earth's movements, as we human beings, left to our own devices and quarrels, settle for compromises left and right as we vainly seek consensus among our disparate valuations, seesaw one way and then the other and back again, and finally grind down to the lowest common denominator.

Witness the "secular" Christmas controversy that started this topic. From celebrating Christmas as the birth of Christ with its wealth of meaning and beautiful music and traditions, we have decided to keep Christ out of Christmas, do away with the vertical axis. In the interest of inclusiveness, we have taken out the nativity scenes, changed all references to "Holiday". The Christian mother objects to this, pointing out that the menorah and Islamic star and crescent are just as religious. What next? Were it not for the commercial lifeblood that Christmas decorations and giftgiving have become, it will eventually be dropped from the secular calendar. As Elder points out, just imagine what our musical heritage would be reduced to if we decided to strip out all the true Christmas songs. I am afraid that instead of a Happy Holiday, we'll end up with a Sappy Holiday...

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Didn't know where else to put this. I loved it and didn't want to staat a thread for just this.

A poem i wrote a while back....

Just A Flag

I reminisce of days of yore when people worked together,

Up to the 9-11 tragedy when a stranger became a brother.

It makes me proud to salute the symbol that holds us all together,

I mean it is just a simple cloth stating freedom now and forever.

But to some that is all it is, just a colorful rag,

But to me, my family and millions more, we take pride in that flag.

Some just cannot fathom, the depth of this thing,

While others take pride in it, 'cause without it freedom would not ring.

Explain to me for why this flag is flown all around this earth,

And to why I will be loyal to it, to death from my birth.

Tell me why this flag overlooks our land, from as far as the moon,

And as to why more men will die, for it very soon.

Educate me as to why, this flag carries us through battle,

Every fight that we have fought, this flag has been our shadow.

Clarify to me just how, this flag can makes arms tremble

As it is laid in a mothers hands, as we say "We Will Remember".

Tell me why it sails over prestegious institutions,

Government agencies, military bases, honoring our constitution.

Justify for me just why, for this flag I signed my life,

Because im sure that we all know, one man can't make things right.

Illustrate for me please, why amidst all the rubble,

Three dedicated firefighters, raised a flag through all the trouble.

A sight that was possibly more chilling, than the bombing of Hiroshima,

Many saw these firemen, as the soldiers of Iwo Jima

Rationalize for me why, we fly a flag half mast,

Normally it bows to none, so we see respect unsurpassed.

If you could possibly tell me how, this flag makes millions stand,

At their favorite sports game, with their heart covered by hand.

Or tell me why people raise their heads, upon the singing of our anthem,

Causing chills to run down their spines, as the words sink deep into them.

Reveal if you can why millions, recite an oath more than twice,

To defend our country and its freedoms, even if death may be the price.

Untangle me the reason why, our flag will often go,

where others fear to travel, for enemies we do not know.

Explain as to why we have, cowards and draft dodgers in our country,

They are not important to me, but I will protect their family.

Solve for me if you can why I, am angered by actors in Hollywood,

When they say they are embarrased, to live in a land that is more than good.

Or as to why they think they know, just how this country should be run,

When most were highschool and college dropouts, that would rather have some fun.

These people do not understand, what it means to serve your country,

They just do not understand, what it takes and means to be free.

Other lands cannot offer, privelages like ours.

Especially not the freedom of speech, in our darkest hours.

But as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

We shall fear no evil, even if we're out of breath.

Whether I find rest in heaven, I pray hell it will not be,

Whether either is even existant, my flag will come with me.

Though maybe not in material form, for my body may be in aches,

Vividly painted in my mind is really all it takes.

Whether I may meet my match, in the deserts of Iraq,

I know for serving and protecting her, the flag will have my back.

Finally the day may come, where she'll be draped over my chest,

My family will be given this flag, and know I tried my best.

I hope they will educate my newborn nephew, to what that flag really means,

And maybe one day he will choose to serve, when he reaches his late teens.

So in conclusion, be happy for what you got,

Many men and women died, trying to make your life tip-top.

So take some time to honor this symbol, through the good times and the bad.

But then again I could be wrong, it's only just a flag.

excellent poem. well written and so true! B)

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