Bob

Whatever the motivation(s) for the recent recognition of Palestinian statehood from several South American states, it's the wrong decision to make, morally and practically - at least with respect to the "peace process". These states certainly have greater economic ties to the Arab states, and are inclined to support their positions at least in the sense of maintaining relations. These states have much more to lose economically from upsetting the Arab states than upsetting tiny little Israel. Beyond that, I have a suspicion that the leaders of the South American countries that recently extended their recognition of Palestinian statehood in all the territory east of the 1948 armistice lines (deceitfully described by the villainous and the ignorant alike as "1967 borders") sincerely believe that that land, at a minimum, belongs to the Palestinians. I don't think they're merely playing politics, but acting on warped moralities and/or massive ignorance of history and contemporary issues. At the end of the day, however, this "recognition" means very little and changes nothing.

Since when is Sweden "the most tolerant society in the world"? Second, what does tolerance have to do with Islamic terrorism?

Rue - It's too bad you describe yourself as a "reluctant Zionist". Zionism is a beautiful movement. It is a political movement of civil rights, emancipation, and liberation. Through Israel, we the Jewish people have true independence and self-determination. We define our destiny. We preserve and continually develop our culture. After all the blood, sweat, and tears shed by our people, Zionism is a movement to be proud of.

Being anti-Zionist means opposing Zionism's core values, which I listed earlier. A broad statement opposing all Israeli developments in Judea and Samaria (which you call the "West Bank"), without any qualifiers, is suspect. I would suspect, however, that you cannot even name three Israeli cities or town (which you refer to as "settlements", located in what you call "the West Bank".

I have specifically stated, several times, that criticism of Israel in and of itself isn't anti-Semitic. What I have stated, and will continue to state, is that denial of Jewish fundamental collective rights is anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, and it is a denial of our independence, self-determination, cultural preservation and continues development. Finkelstein is anti-Zionist, and therefore anti-Semitic. Chomsky is more subtle, but he is quite dishonest is his historical revisionism. Believe it or not, people with Jewish heritage can be anti-Semitic. A person's last name doesn't insulate themselves from being called out for prejudice when they demonstrate prejudice.

Rue, when did I ever make, or even imply, sweeping generalizations of Gentiles? Where in the world did I ever imply that our intention or desire is to hate or oppress others? You erected quite a few strawmen there, or, at the very least, you implied that I had said thing that I certainly never even implied. Your post seems littered with statements attacking prejudice against Gentiles... why did that even need to be said? Where has anyone in here attacked Goyim? Quite strange...

Norman Finkelstein is openly an atheist. His self-declared connection to Judaism is pretty much his last name. He is also a communist, and opposed to all differences between people arising from groups, nations, ethnicities, etc. He is basically opposed to the independence of varying nations and groups of people, and wants everyone to become like everyone else in a stateless world. Naturally, he is opposed to Zionism as Zionism, at least in part, seeks the preservation of the unique Jewish people. Norman Finkelstein cannot really be held up as a Jewish person, at least as far as his own self-description. Who are we to group Finkelstein in with the Jewish people if he doesn't identify himself with the Jewish people? Moreover, the Jewish people, by and large, don't identify with him. Chomsky had more of a religious Jewish upbringing, but even he does not openly identify himself as Jewish. Although he is certainly relatively knowledgeable about many things Jewish (history, culture, and faith), he still does not identify with it or practise it. If he doesn't identify himself as being a part of the Jewish nation, who are others to define his identity for him? As was mentioned in the above example with Finkelstein, I would imagine a significant portion of the Jewish people don't identify with Chomsky's virulently anti-Zionist positions. In all seriousness, the Jewish heritage of Chomsky and Finkelstein aren't really relevant. Consistently bringing it up, as bud also did with Richard Goldstone, is a transparent and infantile attempt to add "credibility" up his anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist positions. As if someone's ethnicity in and of itself matters or validates a political opinion.

Shalom Aleyhem Rue, I would define Zionism slightly more thoroughly than you just did in previous posts. Although it's probably the case that bud and others don't really understand what Zionism is, and use the term pejoratively to appeal to other anti-Semites, allow me to elaborate a little on what it means to me. At the risk of being presumptuous, I'd imagine that the following description of Zionism will resonate with most Jews and people of noble character. What Zionism is, essentially, is a Jewish liberation and civil rights movement. After centuries of persecution, certain groups of Jews at least as early as the mid-19th century began to conceptualize a movement towards Jewish statehood as a solution to the persecution Jews were facing in Europe and in the Muslim world. We don't need to go into too many details, but several major historical events hurt the Jewish people significantly, leading several of us to the natural conclusion that some resolution had to be made towards ensuring Jewish survival and protection of our basic rights. That solution manifested itself into Zionism - Jewish statehood. Broadly speaking, we unapologetically claim basic rights as a people. These rights are, primarily: self-determination, independence, cultural preservation as well as ongoing development. It is crucial to understand that these are rights as well as obligations that lie not only with Jewish individuals, but with the collective of the Jewish nation. There are individual rights, as well as collective (national) rights. We will not compromise at all on these fundamentals, as these are our basic inalienable rights. Moreover, these fundamentals are best secured via statehood - Israel. We cannot be denied basic rights as individual Jews in our own country, as was done in the past and continues to be done in many countries today. Given the world's history of anti-Semitism, Israel provides and will always provide a safe-haven for any Jewish person who wishes to return to his or her homeland. As far as the movement goes, that's it in a nutshell.

I hope this doesn't seem unfair, as I do not want to portray myself as the judge of who is or isn't Jewish (I can share with you popular Halaha on this issue, though), but let's venture in, anyways. For those who claim to be Jewish, when's the last time you said tefilla? When's the last time you lit the Shabbat candles? When's the last time you donated to a legitimate Jewish charity? When's the last time you attended a Jewish class (history, religion, food, Kabbalah, or anything) or read a Jewish book? I love my fellow Jews, secular and religious, but for those anti-Zionist Jews who try to leverage their last names as a way to increase their credibility on issues relating to Israel, I wonder if I could distinguish you from the Goyim without knowing your last names. More than likely, these anti-Zionists are indistinguishable from the Goyim. It's sad, but true.

Assuming the agitators who disrupted Netanyahu's speech have Jewish heritage, I'd bet that they have very little connection to our faith, culture, and history. You think they have even a basic familiarity with the Tanakh? They more than likely don't know what the Torah, Nevi'im, or Ktoovim are. It's more than likely that they have little to no Jewish education, and that there connection with Judaism begins and ends with their surnames. Just because your last name is Goldman doesn't give you extra credibility when criticizing Israel. Do you really think these agitators are connected to the Jewish community? You think they volunteer or take parts on Jewish cultural outreach? Perhaps some do, but there is a strong correlation between being detached from our people and being opposed to our basic rights. In other words, those Jews who are very out-of-touch with Judaism (faith, culture, and history) are more likely to be anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic. They don't see themselves as different from anyone else, and in fact they're right. Since they're completely disconnected from their identities, and have taken on other identities, they fail to appreciate our distinction and our fundamental national rights. If they don't even see themselves as Jewish (naomiglover her was, at least until recently, very reluctant to reveal her own Jewish heritage), why are we surprised that they don't care one iota about Jewish cultural preservation, ongoing development, independence, and self-determination? These basic rights of the Jewish people don't matter to them because they don't identify with the Jewish people, and they are unconcerned about Jewish survival. They see themselves are Goyim. It's sad, but that's how it is. Even worse is that people like noamiglover often use their Jewish heritage in a malicious way, by implying that they indeed are part of the Jewish people in a meaningful way and that their anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is rooted in "inside knowledge" about who we are and what we want. Without explicitly saying it, they are implying that they have a unique insight into the Jewish people and Zionism by virtue of their connection to the Jewish community, when in reality they are much closer to the Goyim than to us. Again, just because you have a Jewish last name doesn't mean that you can't be wholly ignorant of Judaism, Zionism, or our history and culture. Many Goyim, though, will assume that these anti-Zionistic Jews are actually in touch with the Jewish community, and that their anti-Zionism is well-informed, when in fact it is as superficial and ignorant as the anti-Zionism of all others. Please excuse the length of this post and its poor organization.

It's a non-story. Soldiers or ex-soldiers who were involved in Cast Lead will continue to live their lives, travelling or not. There was a few great op-eds responding to this story within the past few week, with several higher-ranking officials coming out in solidarity with their fellow soldiers and stating their names and their role. The only crimes committed in Cast Lead were Israel not defending its people strongly enough. Way too many ROE restrictions that needlessly put our brave soldiers in increased danger, all for the benefit of the enemy. That's the real war crime.

I remember seeing those anti-Semitic hatefests at York back when I studied there almost a decade ago. It was terrible.

Are you seriously disputing that the reservation-system isn't an integral contributor to the problems facing the Aboriginal community in Canada? Do you not see how isolating and removing a population from major Canadian population centres is a problem, and reduces their access to centres of economy, politics, and education?

The moral relativism comes into play when you equate my unapologetic support for Israel's existence as our eternal Jewish homeland with anti-Israel extremists who support terrorism and oppose Jewish self-determination in Israel. All I've said is that I am unwavering and uncompromising on the basic fundamentals of Israel: Jewish independence and self-determination, as well as Jewish cultural preservation and ongoing development. After making such statements, you labelled me as an extremist. That is, in a word: ridiculous.

All I have said in this thread is that I am unapologetic about supporting Israel's purpose: to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people. Israel is the vehicle through which the Jewish people actualize independence and self-determination, and preserve and continually develop our culture. The vast majority of the worldwide Jewish population are supportive of these fundamentals. That's the truth. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine with me. How that makes me a bigot... well, who knows?

I won't continue this exchange with you, as this is the third or fourth time you've misrepresented my position and attacked things I never even implied. I agree with you: there isn't uniformity among Jews with respect to our feelings and perspectives about the actions of the Israeli government. I contended the opposing view, though, which is what you're continually attacking. Jewish unity with respect to Israel goes far beyond this country simply being the Jewish homeland. There are natural extensions to that fundamental component upon which there is widespread Jewish support. This is the country through which we manifest our independence, self-determination, as well as our cultural preservation and continued development. End of story. Have a nice day.

I specifically said that the worldwide Jewish community is virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. I never so much as implied that the worldwide Jewish community was uniformly supportive of all the actions of the State of Israel. I myself, am very critical of this country, although not in the conventional knee-jerk anti-Semitic manner.

Ah, this is where you're now twisting my words. I never said or even implied that there is uniformity of opinion among Jews towards the actions of the Israeli government. What I said, quite clearly, was that worldwide Jewry are virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. Furthermore, the tiny contingent of "Jews" who oppose Jewish independence and self-determination are generally Jewish in name, only. They are not Jewish in their day-to-day lives. I'm not really sure why you're trying to argue with me here, as I'm simply telling you how things are. How this makes me a bigot, I am unsure. I've said nothing bigoted or offensive (unless you're opposed to the basic rights of the Jewish people or Jews actually living a Jewish lifestyle). I guess when you've fallen into desperation, you resort to infantile name-calling. Congratulations.

I never said we were monolithic. Indeed, we're incredibly diverse and multifaceted. When it comes to the fundamentals of Israel, however, there is strong unity. Those fundamentals are simple: that Israel is the eternal homeland of our people, and will always be the state in which we can fully express ourselves in our own land. There is no serious debate between Jews with respect to our basic rights of independence and self-determination. People like naomiglover and her anti-Semitic affiliations, who oppose our people's rights to independence and self-determination, are not a serious contingent of world Jewry. Moreover, they are almost entirely composed of people with only Jewish heritage, but without real Jewish connection. Since they do not care about the preservation and continued development of Jewish culture (as is evidenced by their lifestyle), why should we listen to their views on the wishes of the Jewish people? If they can't name the Jewish holidays, have no familiarity with Jewish prayer, cannot explain Kashrut's fundamentals, or understand anything else essential to Judaism: then why are we listening to them? Now before anyone states that I am excommunicating out-of-touch Jews from the Jewish community, let me be clear that I am specifically referring to those assimilated Jews who have no desire to learn about their own heritage and take a part in its preservation or development. I'm doing my part to ensure that Judaism doesn't get relegated to encyclopedias and museums. If someone has Russian heritage, but doesn't speak Russian, doesn't know Russian history, doesn't know or understand Russian culture, doesn't know Russian food... is he or she really Russian? You think because someone's first name is Vladimir that they are somehow connected to the Russian people, culture, history, and values?

So, you attempt to wrap up a personal attack against me in a statement drawing moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies? I support a few basic things: Jewish independence and self-determination, and Jewish cultural preservation and continued development. I guess that makes me an extremist in your moral-relativist view.

I've been Jewish for quite a long time. I think I know quite a few things about the Jewish community. I have spent hundreds of hours speaking with all sorts of Jews about all sorts of things relating to Israel. I have seen strong trends. The connection between a weaker Jewish identity significantly increasing the likelihood of a weaker connection with and support for Israel is undeniable. The inverse is also true. I don't need any of you to believe this. If you're interested in having insight into Jewish perspectives towards the Israeli-Arab conflict, then read my posts. If you want to reaffirm your own ideological leanings by convincing yourselves that there is some sort of vigorous debate among the Jewish people regarding the fundamentals, feel free to revel in your fantasies. The truth is that the worldwide Jewish community is strongly united on the fundamentals: Jewish statehood being our vehicle for the self-determination and independence of our people. The worldwide Jewish community, however, doesn't really include those who have no connection to our people and those who do not care about our people's preservation and ongoing development. If you want to believe that these anti-Israel and anti-Semitic "Jewish groups" are primarily composed of Jewish people, go ahead. If you also want to believe that someone is Jewish and is in touch with the Jewish community just because his or her last name is "Goldman", go ahead. I am confident that the majority of the membership of these anti-Israel and anti-Semitic "Jewish groups" isn't Jewish, or, at the very least, is composed is those with Jewish heritage but not tangible or meaningful connection to the Jewish people or Jewish way of life.

The point is simple: Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, and its purpose is to be the eternal homeland for us where our ways of life, values, faith, language, and heritage are preserved. People of Jewish heritage who have assimilated don't care about these things. They don't follow our religious values in any meaningful way, they are out-of-touch with our history and heritage, and they simply don't care about the preservation and continued development of our culture. If they don't care about these fundamentals, why are their opinions to be listened to? They speak from a non-Jewish perspective. Just because their last name might be "Goldman" doesn't add weight to their views. If you are disconnected from the Jewish people and have no stake or concern in our cultural preservation and development, as well as the independence and self-determination of our people, then you don't speak on our behalf. It's that simple. It's like a person with Catholic parents who is now a self-proclaimed atheist saying he or she speaks for the Catholic community. If you're not a Catholic, and don't care about Catholicism, you cannot speak for Catholic interests. What I'm saying is that someone's heritage, in and of itself, doesn't add much credibility to one's statements, especially when the heritage begins and ends with one's last name. As far as your commentary on Israeli politics, I don't think there's much for me to say. I don't anticipate I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who has no connection to Israel and whose knowledge of Israel's political system doesn't go beyond reading a few CNN articles in the "Middle East" section.

There's a stronger connection between Israel and Jewish people who have a stronger and richer sense of Jewish identity than between Israel and disconnected Jews. Of course criticizing Israel in and of itself isn't inherently anti-semitic. More often than not, however, anti-Israeli criticism, when your peel back the layers of the opposition, is rooted in a fundamental opposition to Jewish independence and self-determination. Jewish independence and self-determination (which includes the preservation of our ways of life as well as continued development) is inextricable from statehood. Opposing those fundamentals is anti-semitic, as it condemns us to the subjugation of others and disconnection from our homeland. As far a "real Jews" go, those who do not live a Jewish lifestyle have no right to speak on behalf of us who do live a Jewish lifestyle. If a person of Jewish heritage, who is almost completely disconnected from his or her people and culture, is unconcerned about the preservation of the Jewish culture, faith, and homeland: should we be surprised? I would imagine naomiglover considers herself an atheist and views religion and faith as an archaic cultural artifact that should be gotten rid of. People like her attempt to utilize their heritage to add legitimacy to their positions, as if someone they are "insiders" with the "courage" to "speak out" against "their communities". The truth is, however, that they are no insiders, are not a part of our community, and therefore have no stake in spewing heir rhetoric. Moreover, they are in no position to speak on behalf of Jewish interests as they do not live a Jewish lifestyle and are virtually completely assimilated and indistinguishable from non-Jews. At the risk of oversimplifying, they are like Jewish "Uncle Toms". Of course there are "real Jews" who are disturbingly critical of Israel and misguided, but they are a tiny minority. They are certainly not representative of Jewish interests. As far as naomiglover goes, I guess I shouldn't be surprised when someone like herself calls me a racist. Disagreeing with people like her, and being unapologetic about independence, self-determination, and our basic rights.... somehow becomes "racism".

To the non-Jews in here (almost everyone), don't be fooled by organization claiming to be Jewish. I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be. At the very least, those who actually do have Jewish heritage are, tragically, more than likely very out-of-touch with Judaism and Jewish culture and history. Basically, their understanding and connection to the Jewish people and our heritage, religion, and history begins and ends with Schindler's List or the Pianist. It's sad, but they are very disconnected from our people and certainly are out-of-touch with reality and with the needs and perspectives of the Jewish people.

I actually cringed in empathy, as I felt such embarrassment for that girl who humiliated herself by ranting the same sentence over and over over... like an autistic or drain-damaged child. I wonder if she and her other "Jewish leaders" protested Ahamedinejad's anti-Semitic cants at the UN. Netanyahu managed the crows well, and everyone took these absurdities in stride. It's sad and depressing that there are so many misguided youth with nothing better to do than to disrupt such event. Ironically, the last fool said something along the lines of "silencing dissent", which is exactly what these agitators were doing: attempting to silence the truth with their propaganda. I support the loyalty loath, but it certainly doesn't go far enough and it must be applied to existing citizens as well as newcomers. Israel must remove anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic persons from the political process. Lastly, to naomiglover, you don't even identify yourself as Jewish, so why are you doing this now? Since when did you begin to use words such as "our" in an attempt to identify yourself with the Jewish people? Is that a new strategy of yours where you try to exploit your "Jew-cred" to add weight to your anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist rants and raves? This board is too smart to be fooled by your first or last name, and having Jewish heritage doesn't insulate you from having your reprehensible views and double-standards attacks.