Bob

There is very little agriculture in Jerusalem - it's virtually non-existent here. Agricultural areas are more prevalent is less densely populated parts of Israel in the far South and also in the North. As far as Arab-areas in what many refer to as the West Bank, there are quite a few areas with low level agriculture. I'm not very familiar with that area, though.

That's not true. But then, you tend not to allow reality to interfere with your version of events.

I certainly care about anti-Semitism. It's real and it affects me and those I care about. I don't use the term to "shut down debate", merely to call things as I see them. When I see double-standards and rejection of Jewish independence via statehood in Israel, to me that is anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism is, at the end of the day, the same as anti-Semitism - as it condemns us to death as a nation, whether through assimilation or genocide. Anyways, anti-Semitism isn't just some buzzword to me. It's very real, very dangerous, and frighteningly become more and more mainstream.

That's too simplistic. If America could make Israel do its will, then the situation would be very different. Yes, America has sway with Israel in many ways, but it isn't absolute and it isn't simple.

You're not anti-Zionistic? You sure seem that way. You support Jewish independence in Israel via Jewish statehood?

Are you using an obscure dictionary to tell me I don't know Hebrew? I know Hebrew. "Goyim" isn't a disparaging term. The only way it could be disparaging is if utilized with a rude tone. Imagine "white people". It can be disparaging if said a certain way. Either way, I'll end it here - I'm not going to argue with a Goy about Hebrew... especially when your very own link contains separate entries with the accurate definition - without an incorrect description of the word as disparaging.

We've certainly had ridiculous and obscene events in Israel with our ultra-orthodox demographic. It almost exclusively happens in Jerusalem. We've had orthodox men physically harassing women walking through their neighbourhoods who are deemed to be dressed immodestly. We've also had Haredim lying in front of moving cars in order to protest a publicly-run parking lot from operating on Shabbat. We've also had "ushers" harass women for sitting on "the wrong side of the bus". Yes, we have these absurdities. And yes, the government has generally been extremely weak in its response to this craziness. Still, these events are few and far between. They are a problem, but they are an infinitesimally small problem when compared to other threats facing Israel. Rest assured, our country is not moving towards the brink of insanity as is common among the Arabs and Muslims, although the extremely high ultra-orthodox birthrate is a cause for concern. As I said earlier, there are a myriad of problems with this population at a broad level that we can talk about later, including their underperformance in education, general exemption from national service, higher representation in unemployment statistics and abuse of welfare and social assistance, and generally absurd political associations. I assure you I'll give you good insight soon. They're big issues with big histories and big explanations. As far as the "one ethnic group" statement, it's important to remember that the Jewish people are a very broad group. We're not homogenous with respect to most issues (although most of us agree on one thing - we want to survive). This country is composed of over 20% non-Jews, so it's always a difficult issue balancing the country's Jewish character and the rights of the non-Jewish population. It's difficult, but it's done reasonably well in Israel - at least so far.

My mistake, I thought I had attributed that to Jack Weber. I meant to, but I forgot to. It was he that feigned offense over my use of the term "Goyim", while he doesn't even know what it means. Either way, you're still ignoring everything that's been said... as usual.

"Goyim" isn't a disparaging term. Don't be so insecure. Describing an anonymously-written "rebel without a clue" manifesto blaming Israel for all of its ills is hardly "moderate". "Wall of shame", eh? Perhaps we should dismantle it and have more Jewish children murdered from these "Gazan youth". What a joke.

I'll gladly explain it later, but I'm just low on patience for that subject at the moment. Double-standards towards the ultra-orthodox and military service go all the day to Ben-Gurion, and it's the letter of the law in Israel. You certainly are painting a false image of Israel as being "run by religious nuts". That description can be applied to the vast majority of Arab/Muslim governance. We certainly do have some problems with the ultra-orthodox in a broad sense, but as I already said, I'll explain it later. Secularism is a little subjective, and depending on how it the term is utilized, I certainly would not secularism as some virtue to which Israel should aspire. I consider myself secular, but that doesn't me I'm like a Goy. I don't renounce religion, my history, or my culture in order to blend in with the Goyim so that they will accept me. If that's our ideal, and it most certainly is NOT, then Israel's purpose is virtually non-existent. An observation towards Jack Weber, the term "Goy" isn't disparaging. I certainly didn't use the term in a disparaging manner. It's a simple truth, connected Jewish people with a strong sense of Jewish identity (yours truly), will more than likely be many times more knowledgeable than a half-interested Goy such as yourself. Why is this surprising or offensive? It's something we're affected by, involved with, and deeply care about. You are completely disconnected, completely uninvolved, and you don't give a damn about this "pile of rocks". Towards bloodyminded, as expected, you've completely ignored everything I've said. One-liner attempts at being witty don't change the realities I've laid out. With respect to my self-declared "resident expert" title, I stand by it. Do you seriously think you're nearly as informed as I am with respect to anything Israeli, Jewish, or Palestinian? I could make much stronger arguments in support of the Palestinian cause than you and all the other terrorist-apologist anti-Zionists in here, because I know the narrative and have studied it for over a decade. The passing interest you may have in this issue can't even come close to how much I know about this subject given my deep interest and connection to it since childhood. Don't be offended or insecure, that's just how it is. You are in no position to enlighten me on any issues relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict. I've read more books, more articles, attended more lectures and seminars, had more conversations, seen more videos, and everything else in between relating this issue. Does that really come as such a shock to you? Lastly, I never claimed to know everything about everything. I'm constantly learning more and consuming information. What I do know for certain, however, is that my level of knowledge and understanding of this subject far exceeds virtually everyone in here.

In one breath you say laying blame for the start of this conflict is a meaningless endeavour, and in the very next breath you clearly imply that Israel's establishment is the cause of the problem - if only the occupation would end, so would the violence. Not only do you make a false implication that occupation caused this conflict (violence against Jews from the Arabs began many decades before 1948 in the pre-Israel Palestine Mandate), but you contradict your own position by blaming the Jews for starting this conflict by establishing our own independence and actualizing our own self-determination. Arabs have self-determination everywhere you look. Israel isn't denying any Arabs self-determination in their own lands (Israel isn't their land). How many Arab countries are there, 22? And probably about fifty Muslim majority countries. Spare me claims of oppression of Arabs and Muslims, they've got more than enough land and countries through which they can actualize their national rights.

Nobody gives a damn what Sharon may or may not have said at the time. Sharon's statements at that time, regardless of the accuracy of your quotation, don't change the facts of the time or the period leading up to the new intensification of the war. it's pretty rich listening to a person such as yourself attempting to portray himself as some sort of historian, when every statement you ever make on these issues reveals your massive ignorance of Israeli and Jewish history. You're in no position to be arguing with DogOnPorch about these things, and you're certainly in no position to be trying to educate this forum about these issues. I always find it kinda amusing, in a sort of perverted way, to read historical revisionism and misrepresentations of Israeli and Jewish history from Goyim like yourself without any connection to the events on which you speak. You've never even read a book on these issues, yet don't hesitate at all to skim a Wikipedia page or two and puff out your chest like someone who knows what he's talking about.

You're either deliberately avoiding relevant context (unlikely) or completely ignorant of relevant context because you only consult propagandistic sources (very likely). That war is, like all the others, part of a broader story: the Israeli-Arab conflict. You're utilizing an arbitrary starting point for this episode of increased hostilities in order to paint Israel at the aggressor.

To be more specific, Hamas not only stores its weapons in schools and hospitals, they FIRE them from schools and hospitals. The terrorist infrastructure (everything from weapons to gasoline to vehicles to operations) is completely embedded within the civil infrastructure. There is no way to exclusively target terrorist infrastructure or persons because they are one with the civilian world. The teacher is also a Hamas terrorist. The ambulance which is used for legitimate medical purposes is also used to transport terrorists and weapons. This is the nature of war with these terrorists. Whenever they are struck, they advance their lies and propaganda with complicit anti-Semites and anti-Zionists. One more clarification, terrorism isn't happening "virtually every day". It's being dealt with every minute of every day. It only makes the news when the media feels like reporting on it for one reason or another. From lower level violent demonstrations to more severe rocket attacks, shootings, and bombing, this is a minute-to-minute thing that Israel's security service has been dealing with since the first days of our independence. It has never relented, it has only been stopped more and more successfully as time goes on.

Assuming this document was actually written by Gazan youth, it required absolutely zero courage to compose and then forward to The Guardian while being kept anonymous. Moreover, the document is filled with inciteful rhetoric and plays the typical blame game against Israel. My suspicion is that this rant was written by a British leftist, who may or may not be a Muslim.

How is this a "public coming out"? It's an anonymous document, more than likely written by leftist activists in England.

This manifesto can't be traced to anyone and is completely anonymous. Moreover, it says nothing and means nothing. This reeks like yet another one of bloodyminded's attempts to paint a picture of a people he knows nothing about - the Arabs who label themselves "Palestinians". This manifesto claims to speak for the youth of Gaza, which is over 50% of its population. An anonymous, untraceable document written in English and posted at the Guardian (a virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist media outlet) is supposed to fool me into thinking its representative of Gazan youth beyond the British Muslim who wrote it in his mother's basement? I won't even waste a minute addressing the ridiculous anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that permeates the majority of this idiotic manifesto. What a joke. It's all hyperbole and dishonesty and propaganda.

Basically, Jews that don't want to live like he does. My impression is that people like M.Dancer are secure enough in their own identities that they don't hate me and other Jews like myself who wish to protect and continue development and evolution of our culture. Anti-Semites are often people who are so insecure that they hate us for not wanting to assimilate and become like them. That's one of the reasons of anti-Semitism - anti-Semites feel offended that we Jews don't want to throw away our histories, religion, and culture.

Hey bud, What position are you in to describe the current political atmosphere in Israel? I find it quite funny that a Goy living in Canada is so arrogant as to offer his stamp of approval to an article from Haaretz. According to you, the article "describes the current political atmosphere (in Israel) quite well." For those of you that don't know, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper which isn't popular in Israel, but is quite popular with the anti-Semites who opposed Jewish independence in this world. They love utilizing anti-Zionist articles written by Jews to reinforce their hate-filled perspectives, as they think using Jewish-idiots insulates them from the accusations of anti-Semitism. What a joke. Stick to subjects others than Israel, bud. You're way out of your league.

There's so much false information and pure ignorance in this thread I won't even bother addressing it. As the resident expert on this issue I'll take on the OP. It's old news that a large portion of Arabs in Jerusalem who self-identify as "Palestinian" do not wish to lose their Israeli citizenship. They are terrified that in the event of a Palestinian state being established, they may have their Israeli citizenship revoked and replaced by citizenships with the new Palestinian state. There are several reasons for this. Primarily it is a materialistic motivation. They know that a new Palestinian state will not be able to provide them with the things they have grown accustomed to in Israel. Materialistically this includes health care, educational opportunities, employment opportunities, decent infrastructure for transportation, welfare and social security assistance, and many other components that would take too long to list. They know that the Palestinian government and society simply isn't capable, at least at this time, of providing them what they have become used to in Israel. There are also several political dimensions. They know that a new Palestinian state will not provide them with the social, political, and religious freedoms that are provided to them and protected in Israel. They also know that a Palestinian state will be more dangerous and violent, for reasons that the ignorant will refer to as "racism". They don't trust the Palestinian security infrastructure to protect them from violence and theft, and they know the problems with Arab culture more than all the ignorant leftists who purport the lie that all peoples are the same at their cores. Islamic interests will have a huge influence and success in shaping the laws of their land - they know better than anyone else the disasters this will lead to. Secondarily, they have nothing to lose by having Israeli citizenship, and everything to gain. A future Palestinian state will not require its citizens to rescind their Israeli citizenships, as they want to keep their political presence and power in Israel. They want to increase their influence in Israel, not reduce it. In their view, the more Arabs voting in this country the better. This is the primary way through which they advance their anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist agenda of deceit and hatred. Lastly, and this is a question that none of the anti-Semitic vermin will answer, is why do Arabs not wish to be a part of a future Palestinian state? M.Dancer has already asked this question, and many of us know the answer, but the anti-Semites refuse to even acknowledge the question. The question is simple - if self-determination is what the Palestinians are pursuing, then why do they not wish to actualize it? The backbone of the anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist rhetoric from the left-wing vermin is that Israel denies basic national rights to an oppressed people known as the "Palestinians". All we hear, day after day and decade and decade, is that Israeli military occupation of the dispossessed and victimized Palestinians is the only thing standing between this legitimate nation and their collective rights to independence and self-determination. Beyond that, the vermin on the left have been spreading decades of lies about the Jewish majority oppressing the Arab minority in Israel, and how cruel we are to the Arab citizens of our country. So we find ourselves here, considering an independent Palestinian state as the vehicle through which the Palestinians can realize their destiny, and what do the Arabs say? No thanks, we don't want to be a part of that country even if it doesn't require us moving an inch. We don't want our towns and neighbourhoods being integrated into a future Palestinian and being places under Palestinian sovereignty. We want to remain Israeli citizens. Listening to the pro-terrorist anti-Semitic vermin, you'd think that all Arabs in Israel are oppressed and discriminated against, hated and assaulted by "right-wing Jewish settlers" on a daily basis, being denied basic services while the Jewish citizens have everything they could ever ask for and always go to the front of the line in banks and at the licensing bureau... The reason the Arabs of Jerusalem, by and large, wish to remain Israeli citizens despite the constant shouts for "Free Palestine!" is obvious. This reality completely destroys the house of cards built by the anti-Semites and anti-Zionists of Arab suffering in Israel and wishes from emancipation from Jewish occupation. M.Dancer, you can keep asking the question, and you'll keep getting non-answers and evasion. These liars cannot reconcile their claims of Arab desires for independence and emancipation from oppression with the outright rejection of so many Arab towards the very vehicle of their self-determination: Palestinian statehood.

There's a big difference between an ignorant misspelling of something and a typo. An intelligent person should be able to identify the difference.

You know, there's nothing at all shocking about Kissinger's comments. The only thing that is depressing, but not shocking, is that Kissinger is yet another Jew on a long list who sold out our people. He became American first, second, and third. Any sensitivities he may have held for the Jewish people were sidelined, if not completely ignored. Let's be serious, if the Soviet Union had been putting us in ovens, it wouldn't have been an American concern. It is not America's concern until it affects America practically. This is true for all countries, and this truth is illustrated every single day. This truth has been illustrated every single day since time immemorial. Yes, we will always have stories of heroic individuals, groups, and sometimes leaders of states, but these examples are always eclipsed by the endless list of apathy and collaboration. We cannot be so naive to not recognize the truth in Kissinger's words. Of course America, more than almost any other country, does act on principle. We cannot pretend, however, that America's moral principles aren't regularly compromised for pragmatic (real or imagined) purposes. America sent Jewish refugees back to Europe during WWII (so did Canada, by the way). Britain did the same with the Jewish "illegal immigrants" to the pre-Israel Palestine Mandate, in order to appease the anti-Semitism of the Arabs. So although America is unique in the world with respect to standing on principle, we can't pretend that it hasn't bent its principles many times for its perceived self-interest. Many Jewish people need to wake up and realize that when it comes down to the line, most people will look the other way at best, or actively collaborate at worst. It never ceases to shock me when other Jewish people get upset when it is revealed most non-Jews (and even many Jews among us) don't give a damn about us - as if they haven't yet learned the lessons of history. Kissinger was right - it's not America's problem what anybody does to anyone else in another country. It only becomes a problem when we speak up for ourselves and demand action on our behalf. If America had no Jewish population, it would never have acted on behalf of Jewish interests. America's pro-Jewish actions, which Jewish people around the world should always be thankful and appreciative of, have always come as a result of internal Jewish grassroots movements.

All of the Olim from Venezuela that I've met in Israel, that arrived recently, list the current political climate in Venezuela as one of their prime motivators for leaving. Jewish people have a particular aversion to these types of developments.

Let's get right to the point. Bloodyminded, are you or are you not implying that incitement and hatred of "the other" and propensity for violence is not significantly more prevalent in the Arab world than it is in the West? If you knew Arabic, would you expect to read and hear things over there that you would consider "over the line" in the same manner and volume as in the West? Whether it be newspapers, websites, videos, television, movies, cartoons, statements from political leaders, religious commentary in mosques, or the dinner table, are you suggesting that we are in no position to criticize the venom and hatred that many of us know is rife in the Arab world because we have similar problems in the West? You seem to be trying to draw parallels between what you describe as "Christian fanatics" and the people we're at war with. You also seem to be suggesting that there isn't a distinct and disturbing trend of incitement and hatred in the Arab world that is unique today and largely stands alone.

You're way off. Threats against Israel and the Jewish people are much wider in scope than that. "To the best of your knowledge" isn't worth much. You have not he faintest idea what types of sacrifices are made by Israel and the Jewish people towards our security, every single day. Your ignorance of the threats don't make them go away. In other words, the world doesn't disappear when you close your eyes. You're trying to play down nearly a decade of terrorism from Arabs against the Jewish people, not to mention every war waged against Israel, to "attack by isolated groups". Get real. If you don't yet recognize the threats against Israel and legitimate fears we have with respect to our lives, then you probably never will. I see. I should've read this part before I clicked "reply". Killing Jews is legitimate, because we're apparently we're occupying land that doesn't belong to us. In all seriousness, you need more practice your writing. Your spelling is pretty poor if English is your first language. My advice - less videos games and more reading. That's the first and last time I'll tell you that when you make elementary spelling mistakes in the only language you speak, it doesn't convey and impression of intellect or wisdom.