Bob

Although the italicized portion is simplistic and largely untrue, the lack of unity among us was a product of being fragmented and stateless... in effect, oppressed and subjugated. Much to your chagrin, we're not in that position anymore and will never go back.

See, we're not allowed to defend ourselves until we're put back into the camps. Only then can we say we're facing an existential threat. Thousands of victims murdered by terrorism, thousands more injured, and many more thousands murdered and injured by Arab wars of aggression against us.... nope, not yet serious enough to be qualified as "existential". Iranian nuclear threat? That's not an existential threat, that's just a nuisance. Anti-Semitic Arab/Muslim identity politics on the rise in Egypt, with its American-built military from decades of aid averaging about two billion dollars a year? No problem, whatsoever. Hezbollah in the north firing rockets into Israel as a proxy of Syria/Iran? Just a headache, at most. The fact that the majority of Israelis (not Arabs, of course) have to give years of their life to the military? That's an overreaction to overexaggerated threats.

Spare us the doubletalk. You would never accept the UN defining Canada's affairs, specifically with respect to defining her borders. Nevermind the fact that the example you gave about Canada's northern territories is completely irrelevant to the UN's take on the 1967 lines in Israel - you might as well be comparing apples and oranges. If you would, however, abrogate vital Canadian interests to the UN, you really are the enemy within.

Elements of cohesiveness between Jewish people exist alongside our diversity. I guess that's hard for your one-track mind to understand. Yeah, since Jewish independence and self-determination are just "slogans". Of course you refuse to accept the core issues that are play in this conflict. Peace is certainly contingent on recognition. Well, a meaningful peace that's worth more than the paper upon which an agreement is signed, anyways. But at the end of the day, we're still persevering despite the lack of recognition. That's the point, that we refuse to allow our rights to be determined by the acceptance of others. Our national rights don't depend on you, or anyone else, accepting us. It's great to have acceptance, and it's the moral position to recognize Jewish national rights, but we can't subjugate ourselves to the will of others. Well, there's really no point at continuing, is there? When you put quotation marks around the term nation as a description of the Jewish people, in an attempt to call into question the reality of the Jewish nation, there's really nothing more that needs to be said. Don't get me wrong, it's clear you've had this anti-Semitic perspective all along, but this is you expressing it at it most blatant. As if you are in some position to critique our own collective identity.

Well Black Dog, you're a perfect example of the anti-Semitic left, even if you don't realize. You regularly reject Jewish national rights, effectively wishing to condemn us to living at the mercy of others as a fragmented minority around the world. Of course it'll be different this time, right? That whole Nazi thing, that was just an anomaly and it'll never happen again, right? The Western liberal left, that you seemingly represent, is keen to condemn us to that fate by rejecting Jewish national rights. Moreover, you're the one providing political and material support to terrorists which masquerades as "humanitarian aid". Whether it's the constant handouts that place the "Palestinians" as the highest per-capita recipients of foreign aid on the planet, or American and Israeli funds and energies going towards training "Palestinian security services". You're the one making excuses for mass murder and terrorism, regularly describing it as "retaliation" against "occupation", or "desperate acts of desperate people". You're the one accepting the Palestinian narrative of them being displaced as a product of "Zionist aggression" rather than their own hostilities. You're the one that attacks Israel's legitimate blockade on Gaza, while ignoring the reasons for its establishment and persistence. You're the one suggesting that Israel is the bad guy because more Palestinians have been killed in conflict, as if the Jewish body count isn't high enough. I could go on and on, but there is no doubt, not for even one second, that the Western liberal left carries the torch of anti-Semitism in the sense that this seemingly covert racism, whether malicious in intent or simply a product of massive ignorance, is the most damaging to Jewish people. Basically, the modern left is in bed with the Islamists, in both the Israeli and broader contexts.

Who cares what you recognize? Are you going to come fight and try to force us to comply with your wishes? You're so full of it, speaking about "legalities" of the UN, as if Israel's legitimacy is contingent on the UN's approval. It is particularly dishonest, considering that we all know that you would never accept the UN "imposing" its will on Canada in one way or another. Suppose tomorrow the UN voted against Canada's right to exist and stated that sovereignty over the land belongs to Aboriginals, would you accept that? Does the UN reserve the right to determine which states are or aren't legitimate? Of course not. You speak with such idiocy, expecting Israel to somehow accept absurdities that Canada would never accept. If the UN reserves the right to determine the legitimacy of states and their border, and it most certainly DOES NOT reserve this right, then it could delegitimize Canada. That's effectively what you're arguing, in principle. A preposterous position, indeed.

From what I remember in "Guns, Germs, and Steel", Jared Diamond states that disease killed off about 95% of the in a relatively short period of time (less than two centuries, I believe). Eventually some of the Europeans learned of the devastating effects of disease and used it as perhaps the earliest form of a biological weapon to decimate certain Native communities, but these examples account for a tiny portion of the Native deaths from smallpox. The stories about the infected blankets, while true, are a very small part of the broader story of the decimation of the Natives via disease after the arrival of the Europeans.

I don't care whether or not you accept our rights. We can defend our rights, this time. What's your point? Does the beautiful story of the revival of Hebrew in contemporary Israel bother you? You have such a disturbing opposition towards Jewish reclamation of national identity. Too bad assimilation didn't finish off what Hitler started, I suppose...

Black Dog is a complete waste of time. Of course there is Hebrew, and unfortunately Yiddish is clinging by a thread, as well as some other dialects like Ladino. Black Dog is engaging in a pathetic attempts to undermine the reality that is the Jewish nation and our connection to this land. As if there is no ethnic component to the Jewish people, or "historical state" (what does that even mean?). Basically, according to Black Dog and the other anti-Israel detractors who invert morality on its head, the Jewish people have no national rights. We must accept being ultra-minorities living among others and being vulnerable to the sentiments of the masses. I've said it before and I'll say it again - we've had enough pogroms, expulsions, and death camps. We're seizing our independence and we'll continue defending ourselves.

First of all, the UN can't "impose" anything. Suppose the UN votes in favour of this state, which will lead to no practical changes on the ground as Israel will invariably reject this absurdity. Would you support Canadian military intervention in order to "impose" the UN's will against Israel's opposition to "the international community"? Unless you're willing to fight for it, and by that I mean sending in Canadian forces to "impose" the will of the UN, it will be just another empty declaration from the verminous institution that is the antithesis of its mandate. And no, the "1967 borders" are certainly not a "reasonable" point of departure for negotiations. Not only will we never see a return to those lines, but they won't be used as the basis for negotiations, either. You talk about the blockade on Gaza... why do you suppose there is a blockade in the first place? Just for the hell of it? As far as "self-defense" being a "right" of any "state", in the event of the establishment of a 23rd Arab state known as Palestine, it will have to be demilitarized. You say it's a "non-starter", well, in that case, the status quo will remain indefinitely. The Arabs have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted and they must be disarmed. This certainly wouldn't be the first time an aggressor people had their "rights" to "self-defense" reduced. Whether it's placing restriction on the violent ex-cons towards buying guns or the process of denazification, individuals as well as groups can forfeit rights based on breach of trust.

Be specific, which programs are you referring to? You're just making shit up. Again, you and I both know you can't refer to anything specifically without running to Google. So go do your thing, and come back with proof of effective programs being administered by the UN. Once you do that, feel free to tell us that the UN is the indispensable vehicle through which these endeavours are accomplished.

That wasn't an acknowledgment of successful programs, rather a statement about the possibility of good programs having been administered by the UN, and that any such programs could more effectively be implemented outside the auspices of such a bureaucracy. How can you not understand that? I know for certain that I lack nothing when it comes to writing skills, and my own words are clear for any honest observer to understand. So either you're dumb or disingenuous. Take your pick. Look, you made the claim of "effective programs". You and I both know that you had nothing specifically in mind when you said that, because you're clueless about the UN. You just said it reflexively because you can't fathom that such an institution could not only be completely useless, but in fact harmful. I ask again, what "effective programs" were you referring to? I'll wait for you to come back with a real answer to a simple and straightforward question, rather than a blatant misrepresentation of a quote of mine from a previous post.

What effective programs?

I despise sick ideologies, like communism, and I don't act differently if those sick ideologies are advanced from a Goy like yourself or a Jewish person. It makes no difference to me what the source of a despicable perspective is. You know, this post of yours really demonstrates just how stupid you are. As if I said I "hate Jews". At best, this is a desperate attempt to attack me in a blatant misrepresentation of my own words. Even a below-average intellect would be able to see that I certainly never said anything close to what you're trying to allege I said.

Of course, and I've said it many times before. Any Jew, not the least of which a convert to Judaism, has as much claim to this land than anyone else, including a hypothetical tenth-generation "Palestinian". That's codified in the Law of Return, in a sense. Of course this is hard for you to grasp based on your racist point of departure (imaginary deep-rooted "genetic" connections to land among the Arabs), but like I said, the connection here is cultural, more than anything else - which is inextricable from history. You obviously have some perverted hang-up with this issue considering your anti-Semitic signature which casts Zionism in a disparaging light. It's always fascinated me how people like yourself, who are so clueless about the very issue they claim to be interested in, can be so ignorant of that very issue.

Nice doubletalk. We're not going to accept "sharing" arrangements which destroy our rights to elf-determination and independence. Shouldn't you be advancing more "genetic" arguments predicated on racism? Telling us who has which right to which lands based on imagined genetic "proofs"? What makes you think I hold a Jewish communist in any less contempt than a communist like yourself? If anything, I despise them even more.

I cannot waste any more of my time talking to you. If you can't understand that Israel's foundation is the establishment of a state through which the Jewish people can actualize our national rights to independence and self-determination, what's the point? These moronic ideas that the UN "formed" Israel, and "legalities" of the Jewish people seizing our own destiny.... really? You think we're going to accept national suicide because fools like you selectively interpret meaningless "international law"? What do you think this is, something like throwing out evidence in the form of a confession against the accused in a courtroom because he wasn't advised of his rights to silence and an attorney promptly after his arrest? Like I said - monumentally stupid. Keep on advancing that racist "genetic" argumentation to an unlinked "study" you supposedly read.

Apparently you don't know what proselytization is, or its relationship with Judaism. We don't actively recruit - that's what proselytization is. If anything, conversion to Judaism is discouraged (you're just fine the way you are, thank you very much). Certainly some non-Jews choose to convert and do so, but it's rare. Of course there are historical exceptions to this rule, where Jewish groups actively sought to convert other groups of people,but they compose a tiny fraction of Jewish heritage.

You are so clueless about the history of this place, specifically the changes of populations over time. You really think that the modern day "Palestinians" are the descendants of people who've lived here for thousands of years? You're speaking about things of which you know nothing. And please, spare us your imaginary commentary about the cultural similarities between Arabs and Jews. Considering you don't know much about either culture, I think we can pass on your "insights" into imagined similarities between us and them. And yes, them being Arabs absolutely denies them the right, in a national sense, to the land of Israel. This country belongs to the Jewish people, so, naturally, non-Jews will be somewhat excluded in a collective sense. No matter, they've got plenty of other places to live if they wish to actualize their "self-determination". And they don't even need to travel too far to do it!

You'd have a point if there wasn't an extensive Jewish heritage in Israel. You're basically advancing the standard anti-Semitic rhetoric of the Jewish people not having a claim to Israel, without saying it explicitly. I really expect nothing less from a communist like yourself, keeping with the tradition of the Soviet Union supporting the Arabs/Muslims.

Exactly. As if the "International Court of Justice" has any legitimacy beyond anti-Western mental masturbation.

His whole post was trash, don't forget he implied that "Jews converted to Islam" freely, and as if that was a widespread phenomenon (the Jews were kicked out, too, so it's not like we stayed around to convert to Islam!), and as if contemporary Arabs are the "real" Hebrews. He's literally advancing Islamist talking points. If you go around the Jihadi/anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist/liberal websites and discussion forums, this is exactly the imaginary history they espouse. Not only is it completely false, but it's predicated on pure racism.

You're trying to make some racial argument, as if race is a consideration when evaluating the legitimacy of national rights in this land. Judaism isn't race, first of all. Neither are "Palestinians". They are cultures. There are Jews with all sorts of hair textures, skin colours, eye colours, eye shapes, and everything else. Although I think these Arabs are slight more ethnically uniform (we're a much much much older nation and been around much more of the world), the genetic diversity among the "Palestinians" is significant. This shouldn't surprise anyone, considering how much traffic of peoples there have been in this land. Again, this false argument that these Arabs are the "true" people of this land by referring to an unlinked study is just racism. The logical conclusion of your idiotic position is that we should do genetic tests to determine who the "real" inhabitants of this land are. The Jewish people are a distinct nation. We are multiethnic and multiracial. Now, there is somewhat of a genetic component to the Jewish people considering that Jews tended to marry one another which led to certain elements of genetic homogeneity in various Jewish populations - this is why there are quite a few typical "looks" to certain Jewish groups. Still, there are many exceptions, and this can be seen within seconds of walking around Israel and observing the physical diversity of the people. As far as Judaism "always having been a proselyte religion", you're dead wrong. The examples of proselytization in Jewish history are few and far between. Moreover, this suggestion that somehow a Jewish person whose ancestry includes people who converted has less of a claim to this land is pure racism. Aside from the fact that we were ethnically diverse to start with, a Jewish convert is just as Jewish as any other Jew, and has more of a claim to the land of Israel than anyone else. Our claim to this land is primarily one of culture. I never advanced a religious position, either, so it's clear you're another one of those people who imagines things that weren't said. And spare me your non-existent understanding of religious Jewish law as it relates to capital punishment. Aside form the fact that you don't understand the extremely circumstances under which an execution for a transgression is carried out (as if we were just going around and stoning people nonchalantly in biblical times), it's completely irrelevant to anything we're talking about in this thread.

Again, not the brightest candle on the menorah... genocide and mass murder, eh? It's funny how you've displayed hollow outrage at your perception of the "anti-Semite" label being thrown around too loosely by some when countering criticisms of Israeli policies, but look how you completely dodge an obvious point of mine and label me a supporter of such crimes because I corrected your stupidity. You've literally become a caricature of the oblivious anti-Israel fanboy.

Who cares?