takeanumber

My pleasure Cartman. Nice to know that you like facts.

Don't like it, don't read it. Wrong on the polls. They don't show that. Nice try though. Gay pride parades? What's wrong with them? don't like them, don't go. What gives you the right to get up into other people's business and impose your beliefs on everybody else? Well, Christian parents can opt their kids out of sex ed. I suppose that's just an incovinient fact for you. Most left wingers don't defend the right for a 50yo creep to have sex with a 14yo boy. I think you might be thinking of Mr. Ramsey. You'll remember him. He's the conservative that you creeps rallied around when it came to light that he had sexually assaulted aboriginal girls while he was an RCMP officer. How quickly you forget. Oh yes, and let's not forget the residential schools. See, the last time we let you Right wing christian fanatics into policy, you had to go sexually assaulting every aboriginal you saw. Never again. I'm gettins sick of all these goddam right wingers who have nothing to contribute to society except hatred and rhetoric and intolerance for anybody who dares to think differently than them. Oh yes, and Right wingers who think that big government should give farmers endless amounts of money to support their lifestyles, and give tax breaks to oil companies, and defraud public corporations, with their lazy jobs playing at gold courts, with government funded PORK and BAILOUTS, while they go and knock up their secretaries and prostitutes downtown. Why don' t you move back to Germany and be a bigot against those minorities there? We shed blood for this country, WE BUILT IT, and you right wingers just want to destroy this country with intolerance, and bigotry, and bringing the Church back in to politics after we spent so many years to banish them from it. No, you're the destroyer of the country, not the centrists or the leftists. It's you bastards talking about seperatism out west. It was your generation who invented systematic rape and himiliation of other cultures. It was your generation that denied voting rights to women in Quebec, up until when? 1964? When did natives get to vote? 1970? Are you proud of your legacy? Now YOU'RE the minority, in a country of minorities. You'll always be in the minority. So suck it up, cupcake.

That's all the nation of Quebec really is. Two strips of land along the Saint Lawrence. That's where all the francophone, ethnic Quebecois reside. Plus Quebec City and Gaspe. So yeh. Referendums for the island of Montreal and other regions could be held by Elections Canada, especially if those parts of the country overwhelmingly vote no to seperation. There's a year worth of negotiations on how the country was to be divided, and nobody likes uncertainty, so more than likely, there would be an agreement to that effect. Most Quebecois though don't believe that they need federal transfers though. They really do think that they're a net contributor to confederation. And the Rest of Canada already rejected asymtric confederation with Quebec. The Rest of Canada has said "Either in or out", that's what they said during the 1992 referendum. So this "double dip" pipedream of the Quebecois just isn't going to happen. In spite of what they think, the Rest of Canada has a choice too, and we can say 'non' to them.

@Idealist: I think what most people miss is that Ontario really has several dimensions. There's Urban Ontario. There's the 905 There's Blue Ontario There's the Northern 'Dependencies' There's the Capital Region There's the French portion of Ontario Alberta is really quatra-cut There's Redmonon There's Calgary There's Northern Alberta There's Rural Alberta Atlantic Canada is really divided into dozens of pieces. I mean...the differences in point of view between Bathurst and say...Picto...is striking, both in language and culture. The differences between Cape Breton and say, Grand Mannan or Shippigan, are all equally striking. So yeh. I think the cons, when they trash Ontario, are talking about Urban Ontario and it's dependencies, and possibly even Blue Ontario. I think the only people they're not mad at are the 905's and the Capital Region. It would be nice if people labelled things, but you know, we're not too specific here.

Anglophones left Quebec because they where being discriminated against. If you won't admit to that, then you truly are myopic in your vision. The thing that the ROC doesn't like about Quebec being in CAnada while not being in CAnada is that it's double dipping. I can see it now: They don't want to pay into EI, but they'll demand EI transfers from the ROC. They'll demand that Quebeckers who are working for the federal government should be allowed to keep their jobs. They'll demand that the ROC keeps all of the federal debt and let Quebec off scott free. It'll be a total double dip. Therefore: if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. We'll let the aboriginals decide if they want to stay in Canada, as a territory. We'll let Montreal, and indeed, other parts of Quebec decide if they want to stay in the 'province of Montreal' or the "province of Quebec"...and that's how it will be. The Rest of Quebec will get sovereignty, but they won't have our passport, or our money, and they sure as hell won't be getting any Canadian money to fund their little socialist experiment.

Sorry, that's all I hear is screaming. Constant bitching and moaning. If it isn't drought. or BSE Then it's prices. All of this points to too many firms in the market. Let's tackle the other falacy in your statement: that Air Canada and Bombardier get more money. Total Paid to Farmers in one year: 1.6 Billion (and that's just one Federal program) Source: http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/default.asp?Langu..._20010302_e.htm Total paid to Air Canada through similar disaster program: 100 million Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Airpolicy/compe...ram_results.htm Quite a difference there. However, it's a classic tactic to justify one's wrong doing by pointing out somebody else's. The fact is: NOBODY SHOULD BE GETTING PORK. The TAXPAYER should NOT be supporting other people's "ways of life". And that's exactly what all of these farm income subsidies, and disaster relief, and emergency relief, and insurance scams, and quotas are. They all screw with the market so we're CONSTANTLY subsidizing too many farms. It's time to get with the program here people. The same rules that apply to urban workers should apply to rural workers. AND NO, don't use that "you'll go hungry" line. Fewer farms, operating on the best land, will be able to respond to our needs. And if they can't, then the market will respond and we'll get more food. But can you at least confess your Conservative hypocracy by saying admitting that the line "Government should be out of the business of doing business" and then defending subsidies and outright pork to farmers. As for compensation: sorry. I don't think that a packing plant that's making hand over fist as a result of BSE should get compensation. I also don't think that oil execs who own a few head of cattle on their part time ranches should get compensation either. Compensation should be for those who are in dire need. Not for people who exposed themselves to market risk in the first place, and then come cap in hand for compensation. It's really the janus face of Conservatives that I really don't like. At least have the hair on your balls to admit that the positions are contradictory.

Most of the provincial money went to millionaires too. And to hear our finance minister here in Alberta justify it is just sick. But still. Some farmers made off with some aid. Plus drought aid. Plus subsidy aid. Plus quota aid (in some cases) Plus subsidized insurance. Where does the aid stop? Why doesn't the market apply? ooooooooooooooh I know what it is. The gettymandered electoral map of Alberta (so named after Premier Getty, who gerrymandered the map), made the rural areas over represented (way overepresented). So the market doesn't apply to rural areas, because the rural areas vote for the government in power. It's all so much clearer to me now. Again, bring on the next bunch of corrupt, gettymandering hypocrites. Nothing ever changes in Alberta.

http://www.ffwdweekly.com/Issues/1998/0319/view1.html Fast Forward isn't academic. But I think all the other Alberta Newspapers have purposely deleted it. So yeh. It's not academic, but it'll have to do cos I can't find any other references online. check the Calgary Herald Archives for March 1998 though. Anyway, Canadians don't like pre-emptive use of S.33. We can have a discussion as to the pro's and con's and the status quo, but it requires a lot of past knowledge to be able to talk intelligently about the subject.

I'll look for the source. It's well known. He's already pre-emptively used S. 33 in the marriage act, and was going to use it against Vriend, but of course, he got disgusted by the hate mail against homosexuals and decided that homosexuals did in fact need human rights protection. (The one time I think he actually did the right thing) I'll dig it up.

Cry me a river when it comes to farmers, alright. It's a double standard. The market doesn't apply to them because they always scream 'heritage' and 'we're food producers!' The market will always respond. If that means we got to pay higher prices for food, then fine, so long as the innefficient system of keeping unprofitable farms, on unprofitable land, discontinues. Farms should be allowed to fail. So it IS a double standard. The market should apply to everybody. Second: you did say that spending was increased. You emphasized the deficit cutting. Most people forget the increase in spending. (Doubling the budget now.) A fair amount of pork.

I just want moderation. It's possible to get change through moderation. You don't have to resort to far right solutions, or far left solutions.

It wasn't a goof. The use of Section 33 is seen as a very negative thing in the Rest of Canada, mainly because they saw how Quebec used it preemptively to strip away the rights of anglophones in that province. Then it was used pre-emptively against strikers in Saskatechewan. Then it was going to be used by Klein to limit the rights of victims of eugenics. (which Albertans, rightly, freaked about.) You ask most Canadians whether a government should be able to take away your rights by a simple majority vote -- and most will tell you 'no'. Section 33 is just too dirty for use, inspite of social conservative efforts to revive it. I've written extensively on the subject of Section 33 use and voting patterns. So, we might go into it if this thread doesn't degenerate into name calling.

Well: alright: Let's get the facts clear. When Svend steals, he turns himself in publicly, hiding nothing. When the Cambell government or Liberal government of Canada steals, they cover up and interfere in police investigations. The act of committing a crime is bad. The act of covering it up using political power is worse, IMO. The problem with most of these politicians is dishonesty, which leads to cover ups, which is what really annoys Canadians the most.

Alright, so the population of Anglophones went from over one million to 800,000 over 2 decades because of....? What? the reason: how they were being treated. When 20 percent of a minority flees a province because of discrimination, they do not have it 'easy'. I think there is a way that the ROC treats minorities, and then how Quebec treats minorities. So I think that once Quebec finally leaves, the ROC can become a sovereign people. And it'll make us stronger.

Sounds like a renewed excuse for European xenophobia and neo-fascism. Oh well. The Europeans need a war every 50 years, it seems. I hope they keep it to themselves this time.

It's amazing: he cuts the deficit in the first 3 years, then jacks up spending from 11 Billion to 24 billion over 7 years. And you only remember the deficit cutting. Martin does the same thing (worse, without the benefit of booming oil), and he gets hanged for it, and gets NO CREDIT from the right. The double standard is really quite impressive. However: I'll just say this: He could have paid off the debt last year, if not, they year before. HE could have saved the taxpayer some 50 million (AT LEAST) in interest payments. But noooooooooo. We're going to wait for 2005, for the centennial. So we're going to pay even more money, just because it's politically convinient. So, yeh. I'm sick of the hypocracy of Ralphy poo. Time to bring on the next set of Gettymandering Janus faced bastards.

Acadians are sure as hell treated a lot better than Anglophones in Quebec. The homeland of the Acadians is New Brunswick, where they have entrenched constitutional rights that CANNOT be overriden by S. 33. Anglophones in Quebec frequently have their rights overriden. So, yeh, I'd say Acadians have it much better than Anglos. If Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. I like the idea of a province of Montreal and a territory of Ungava. I also think that a strong offense is the best defense. Perhaps they should have a referendum in Montreal to determine sucession from Quebec. Clear majority on a clear question.

He HAS increased spending. Get your facts straight. Doesn't mean Klein can take full credit. He can take 1/10000th of the credit. I'd give him that much. A far from cry from somebody giving him all the credit, as was done in this thread. Again, you didn't actually see what he did during that committee. If a Liberal in Ottawa had have done that, you'd be freaking. In Alberta, there was a mild fuss. The media tried to play it down, as usual. This crossed the line from posturing, to actual bullying. Good. I think he's putting ideology ahead of what the people of Alberta want. We don't want furthur deregulation of the power industry. But we're getting it. We don't want furthur gouging by the insurance industry. But we're getting gouged, in spite of record profits. We don't want BSE money going to millionaires and meat packers. But they're doing it. Then they defend that action. Then they ignore the fact that the meat packers refused to cooperate with opening their books. He's not trying to do the right thing anymore. He's trying to protect his friends, and he's trying to sell the province out to them. It's almost like Ottawa around here.

That's a red herring. And I think it's disgusting that you'd use the beheading of an American as a prop when it comes to this issue. You're one sick puppy, Bro. Very sick.

Acadians. Walloons. Scottish. Welsh. Tamils (in india). I just named five. Your move.

Who, pray thee, are these mystical 40%? When I quote figures, they're based in reality. When you quote figures, they're based in bullshit. The VAST MAJORITY of Canadians are NOT socially conservative. MANY of those Canadians who ARE socially Conservative DO NOT THRUST their beliefs on everybody else. It's this very small group, with such shining examples of tolerance like Cheryl Galant and oh yes, former MP Ramsey (you'll remember him, the MP who exposed himself to a teenage aboriginal when he was a mounty, yet, the Alliance all rallied around him like he was some kind of saint, I guess sexually abusin aboriginals is still kitch with those sickos in caucus), who insist on pushing their beliefs on others. Sorry, the last time we let those people try their hand at social policy, we got the residential school program. We're not letting you guys repeat those attrocities again. No, I'm sorry, but the Burqua stays in the closet for another 2 years.

Typical Alberta Arrogance, Stoker. I suppose you're going to claim that it was Albertan hard work that put the oil in the ground, too? 1. If Alberta seperates, most Easterners will actually return to their home region, or, move to Toronto/Montreal or Vancouver. Why? Because they move where the jobs are. They tend to be extremely mobile, and they'll want to keep their options open. Somehow I doubt that Alberta Citizenship or Canadian Citizenship will be very interchangeable. 2. Easterners most certainly do not 'depend' on Alberta for work. Alberta enjoys having the best and brightest from the other regions to come out and work, and many leave when they bored, tired of the climate, or tired of the people. 3. Oil reserves in Alberta are depleting. They got the sands, but the cost per barrel for extraction is quite high, and there will be a heavy reliance on CANDU technology in the future. Moreover, where will the water come from to run the reactors? etc... Alberta won't be rich forever. You know that. You're from Canada. Anybody with even a basic understanding of Canadian history knows of the natural cycles.

I think money is a huge part of it. First off, if you listen to Duceppe and the seperatists, they argue that Quebec is always short changed when it comes to money. They don't believe that they are a net beneficiary from confederation. I think that in part, there's the question of money, in that they always want to extort more of from the ROC, a bribe to stay in Canada. Second off, the treatment of Anglophones within Quebec is simply illiberal. There's no law, anywhere else in the country, that states that you can't have a store front sign in another language. It's simply illiberal, and there isn't a legitimate reason for it. Third, if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. Carving out the Province of Montreal and a new Northern Territory, and then allowing the 'real' Quebecois nation to move on, would be good. I think that the rest of Canada has evolved to the point in its history that we don't need Quebec holding a gun to our heads. If life in Canada is so terrible for them, let them have a vote, and we'll divie up the province into pieces.

If a clear majority, on a clear question, wishes to leave confederation, then they can. If massive portions of Montreal wants to stay in Canada, then they can stay in Canada. Seriously, if life in Canada is such a terrible hardship for rural Quebecois, then they have the right to leave confederation. What is the Rest of Canada scared of? It'll be a messy divorce, but in the long run, it'll be best for us. We can go on to build a truly multicultural country instead of a semi-multicultural country. A truly multicultural country doesn't allow a single province to oppress it's anglophone minority. So for sure. The Province of Montreal. It has a nice ring to it.

Anticipation of Patronage. Nothing makes Nova Scotianers more wet than highway projects and the like. They really figured that they'd win a minority, and then the pork would FLOW. They'll deny it of course. Then there are the solid 'family compact' votes that always vote for the Tories in that area, as a result of past pork. I can't explain it any other way. The man broke a signed contract. Worse, the courts refused to even consider his breach. (Conservative judge?). So yeh. It's funny. Zero Credibility in my eyes. Just like the old PC's eh? Has a Mulroney "gotcha" feeling. Oh well. Brison saw it comming. I'm glad he crossed over.