idealisttotheend

Alright maybe that was a bit rhetorical but I think it was true. In any case it is not the Cons that have my back up here, it is the seperatist sentiment that seems to have popped up. That is what must not be allowed to flourish. And I won nothing, I wanted PR so everyone's vote would count and I didn't get it. I got nothing but some time with Martin trying to do who knows what until the next election which may well be another minority. Since the NDP/Liberal numbers don't equal the magic number I don't believe they will come left. If the Liberals want a majority for the next election they are going to need seats in Quebec and that means they can't work too closely with the BQ even if they have gone soft on seperation in Quebec. Of course, Quebec politics being what it is the Liberals couldn't oppose the BQ too much either or that piss Quebec off and they'll elect more BQ next time. It will be interesting times. Ontario is a "have" province and doesn't complain about sending money to the West (Saskatchewan, Manitoba and even BC) I worked in Alberta for seven years and paid my taxes and didn't mind some of it going to provinces with less oil. Did that make me less of an Albertan? August had an interesting point that I would like to expand on. if the Ontarians have usurped the term "Canadian" then certain Albertans have usurped the term "West." I apologize if I am being arrogant but state again that I won nothing. But I am not going to threaten to seperate simply because I didn't get what I want and will probably not get it next time unless something major changes. I won't sink that low and IMHO neither should anyone else.

I don't really like it all that much either (but prefer Martin to Harper). That is no reason to seperate though. Martin is the most right wing leader the Libs have ever had and with the new seat numbers he is probably going to go farther right still.

The NDP has indeed been rendered irrelevant. This election may destroy it unless it gets another seat or two in the recount. It is sad but true. Especially with the Greens coming up in BC and people on the centre, centre-left and left always being prone to vote Liberal to avoid a Conservative government. The NDP, like the Conservatives, had a golden opportunity and it didn't turn into anything more than five extra seats. In my heart I hope for a resurgence but my head tells me that the bell might indeed be tolling for the NDP unless it can find a niche and solve the vote splitting problem with the Liberals and the Greens (neither of which it seems to be able to do). But then maybe the NDP is a party based on the faith of it's members, I don't know. I wonder if the Liberal party isn't happy that it doesn't have enough seats to combine with the NDP to form a majority coalition. No one in the Liberal party wants PR (it would threaten their hegemony) and now they don't have to do it and they still won't get blamed by the public if another election has to be called in six months. Oh well, I guess the good guys didn't win after all.

What has anyone in the East done to establish themselves as your master? No one in the East is my master why are you different? What have Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done against you lately?

Apparently (as this forum is evidence of) the "west" wants out. Not in. The "west" is of course Alberta. BC has always been estranged from Ottawa but it knows that things like the CPP aren't really reasons to seperate. Alberta though has forgotten about how it used to be the poorest province in this federation now that it is the richest. The middle class cry babies (Black Dog's phrase but I couldn't agree more) now want to seperate so they can can have their conservative paradise. Saskatchewan and Manitoba want nothing to do with it (though Saskatchewan did elect 13 Cons). I think the West can get in. But it has to try harder to make common ground with the larger population bases in the East and stop trying to emulate the seperatists in Quebec. It is easier to get out then in (as with most things) but that is only for the intellectually lazy and the weak at the knees. If Alberta wants more representation it should look at becoming a 'swing' province instead of just voting Con all the time. Notice that the CPC never really brought up Western issues either. They are not the saviours of the West. Where were mad cow and softwood during the campaign? What about real senate reform (to more equally distribute senate seats not just elect senators)? And if the Cons want to win they are going to have to pay even more attention to eastern issues. The solution is to make common ground with other people in the east and to accept that sometimes the West (ie Alberta) has a minority position that it just has to accept is not the will of the majority. The majority of Canada cannot afford the conservative "reforms" on their power bills and car insurance and at the hospital. The idealogues must be opposed by the more level headed and seperation must not be an option.

Good quote August. The reality is though that Harper's past comments are too easy for the Libs to attack. As sad as it is, the Cons may need a leader from the East to make that breakthrough in Ontario. They are definately going to have to be more moderate. I wouldn't be suprised if the knives aren't out in the CPC. They lost the biggest. As someone pointed out they had everything they could have wanted. A untied party, the Liberals reeling from the scandals and having been in power for three terms already, the Liberals divided and the NDP stronger in many areas. But they still didn't pull it off. Not really Harper's fault I will admit (White et al. helped quite alot though) but as they say in hockey when you can't fire the team fire the coach. Harper knows the score. Notice how at the end of his speech he said no one when or loses "until one day" someone gets a majority. That may be a long time and a longer time for the Cons since the best chance for that is if the Liberals beat back the BQ in Quebec and retake some of those seats. I expect I'll get raked over the coals for this one but what the CPC needs now is probably, wait for it, Joe Clark. A western moderate who can build real alliances among the centre and the centre right. But it will never happen.

I think the Liberal platform was costed out at 28 billion (much cheaper than the Cons). The NDP doesn't have the clout to push them to the left (and the Cons can push them to the right) so I guess it is more likely to go down than up. Especially since unless a recount favours either the Liberals or the NDP it should be nearly impossible to pass any legislation at all in the House. But then there will be no tax cuts either. Balance will be maintained even if it's just really paralysis.

I shouldn't say this without access to the number bu... I highly suspect that Alberta Report got more money from postal subsidies than rabble ever will from the federal government, postal subsidies are much more expensive than running a simple internet forum. Everyone gets funding to some extent or another, even the rabidly anti-federal Alberta Report.

I agree the attack ads were effective in getting votes both from Con voters and NDP voters. I think the point must be made though that the fears were not created they were just played on. Ontario has always been suspicious of Western based parties espousing policies that would attack the desire of Ontarions for stability. But maybe with new moderate candadates in Ontario people will see the new Cons more like the old PCs and they may do better in the next election unless any of them open their mouths too wide in the interm.

I agree entirely that a tally ought to be kept. I think the best place would be Hansard. It makes little sense to record every word of debate in the HOC but then not make voting records easily available. There should be a seperate webpage after each vote and a central index. And they should be made available freely to every citizen who is an elector so they can make an informed decision should they choose to. That is democracy.

This idea that corporations are the supremely democratic institution and that unions and democratic governments are horribly autocratic is really tiresome August. We just had an election where we got to decide which party(ies) got power in Ottawa therefore determining your tax rates and how they are used. Don't like your union dues? Vote to change them, elect a new union or get the damn thing de-certified. Is it easy, no, but it can be done if it's important enough to you. Yes you vote for politicians on other issues and funding to rabble.ca is not likely to be a major election issue. But neither are you all that likely to sell your shares of a highly profitable bank because it makes a donation to the Cons, even if you disagree with the donation. In fact I doubt you'd know either way. Find ten friends with shares and then ask them how much their top holding spent on political actions, watch the blank stares. Democracy is where you find it and where you are willing to work for it.

Is the conclusion we should draw that attack ads work or that Ontario is simply still afraid of what they see as the Alliance -ish elements of the Cons. After all, Ontario is the only suprise. There may have been a slight 'breakthough' but the Cons wanted and expected so much more out of Ontario and once again they didn't get it even with a stronger NDP siphoning some votes from the Liberals. Notice how there was a point where Harper couldn't find a hand to shake after his speech, even in a crowd of supporters.

It looks like the Liberals are not going to join a coalition with the NDP, (Goodale's comments to CBC). Is it possible? Are the Liberals arrogant enough to not join a coalition and then have to go to the polls again to try and get the majority. If they would rather work with Cons the the NDP then they are going to have serious trouble scaring people off the Cons in the next election. They will legitimize Harper's Cons and then the Liberals won't be able to win the next election using the same negative tatics they used this time. Or would the Liberals rather legitimize the seperatist Bloc? Unless someone can prove me wrong, I think such a strategy is the pinnicle of arrogance and not all that bright from the Liberal's vantage. They should enter into a coalition at least until they are ready to back to the polls. Of course it could just be a negotiating position.

Yes Layton should keep Martin to his promises on Health Care and Day Care. He should also insist on PR. If he can get that in then that would be well worth the entire Parlaiment. He should ensure the Liberals run centre left instead of centre right.

Your numbers look damn close TN, maybe you should be working for Ipso-Ried. Where are all the happy Harperites?!? lol

Liberals got their share of humble pie though. Pratt Pringle and the one from Quebec that's three cabinet ministers down. Plus Chretien's riding went to the Bloc and it was looking dicey in Lasalle for Martin for awhile. Liberals are going to have to work hard to get some more seats in Quebec for next time but I don't see why next time should be anytime soon.

This is the perfect result, if it holds then I guess sometimes the good guys win. Look at the amount the NDP came up in the popular vote, the only party to do so. Sometimes the good guys win. I am feeling way more partisan than usual but I can't wait for Harper's consession speech.

yep the COns are going down (though they were never really up) -- but we need Lib + NDP > 155 or they'll be another election soon.

so we all look like fools Liberals take most of Ontario despite it all, look for the NDP and the Libs to get over 155 so next time we will have PR

Too bad for the NDP so far MS. I had them down for 14 seats oops. Looks like they split a lot of ridings with the Liberals though, respectable 22%. Hopefully we will get PR out of the 38 parliament so the NDP will do better in the 39th. Let's see some good NDP numbers out of Ontario though I am not hopeful. Still think the NDP should of pushed PR harder to seperate themselves from the Liberals.

Looks like Brison just gave it to Harper good, maybe he should post to this thread.

I noticed that too. I too thought that some humility would be good but they lost 10% of their combined vote over last time, not really a sign but if it was it wouldn't be a good one for them.

I agree that some of Romanow's policies are very similar to Klien's, (but no private clinics or privatizition policies, just closing some rural hospitals and contracting out support services). That is just my point, people trusted Romanow to make decisions based on what he though best. People wondered if Klien was working for his financial backers and the ideologues in his own party. They still do wonder.

Wonderful. However almost all the things you describe, (in fact all of them) are under provincial juristiction. Proving my point very nicely that there is no "federal stranglehold" as you put it. But then they really don't. There are still judges left over that were appointed by Mulroney, if the Cons win this election they will have to deal with judges left over from the Liberal regime. But really these judges are in no way beholden to the people who appointed them anyway. They are independant and can make any judgement they like without fear of reprucussions from the administration in question and are therefore not puppets.

I see your point MH but Rae (quite left wing) was elected while Mulroney (quite right wing) was in Ottawa and then Harris was elected both as an antidote to Rae and with CHretien in power in Ottawa. I would argue that balancing Toronto against Ottawa and then balancing one extreme with the other is a way to get to the middle of the road when the Ontario Liberals were particularily weak. It is not the only possible explanation but it is one.