Dave_ON

Well of course it's not a right to have it publicly funded. But if public funds are made available for cultural events the pride parade has as much of a right as any other to apply and be considered to receive those public funds. This is my point. The funds were made available; they went through the application process and met the criteria. What's the issue? They didn't lobby the government demanding funds or special treatment. They got in line and filled out the application like a myriad of other organizations did. The money was there and was going to be spent regardless of whether Toronto Pride was approved to receive a portion of it or not. The only reason this is even a news story is because it was a gay organization that received the funding and in some regions of the country that's still a hot button issue.

Pontificate much? Respect is one of those funny words that have a multitude of meanings that vary based on context. As per http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect As you can see Argus what you describe as being polite IS a form of respect and everyone is due that level of respect. Further everyone is "entitled" to number 11 form of respect. That is respect of their rights to free speech etc. I don't have to agree with them, and I may not particularly like them but I respect their rights to hold their own opinion and I certainly won't be discourteous to them as a result of it. That was the form of respect I was referring to in my earlier post. When people say that respect is earned not given they're referring to the "reverence" portion of respect. When people talk about respect being a right, they're referring to the non-interference and courtesy portion. No need to split hairs both fit well within the generally accepted definitions of the word.

Wilber this type of comment always cracks me up and so many people think it's a "got ya" defense. My question to you is if you want a straight pride parade organize one! Who's stopping you? Further to that end straight people can join the pride parade as well, all are welcome! The organization has been called "Pride" for a very long time because it is meant to encompass everyone. Not just Gay people. The second part of your "got ya" defense is that you are attempting to draw a parallel between gay people and an illegal activity. I admit this is the first time I’ve seen the necrophilia comparison though, generally they go with either polygamy or the ever popular pedophilia. The problem with this comparison of course is that Gay people are in consensual adult relationships and the comparisons are about situations where one participant isn’t a consenting adult. Polygamy being the possible exception of course provided all participants are consenting adults. I truly don’t understand why some straight people like you are so very offended by the pride event. As far as I can fathom I’m certain they’ve never bothered to attend and see for themselves. They go on hearsay and of course the more outlandish the description the more believable it is. Suffice it to say every day is straight pride day, it’s in movies, TV shows, music out on the street. Straight people don’t really need a time and a place where they feel free to be straight, that’s all times and all places. I don’t expect you to understand as you are in all likelihood a WASP, and there’s nothing wrong with that but in all honesty you can’t really understand what it’s like. As for Trudeau’s comment you’re taking it wildly out of context. He was referring to each and every Canadians right to personal privacy. He was speaking of our rights to free speech and hold a celebration. The government has been in the business of funding festivals and events for decades now, this is not a new policy.

more or less absurd than subsidizing a celbration based on how fast you can hog tie a calf?

Of course everyone is entitled to their POV, an of course they are enttled to respect. I'm uncertain as to where I ever alluded to the fact that they do not or even outright stated it. Further to that end I believe that everyone is also entitled to live their life free from harassment. Some of us aren't given that right without a fight, that's just the reality of it.

Now let's ask thos same people surveyed what the senate does and see what percentage can answer even remotely correct. You're unable to accurately stipulate what the senates role in our government is and I have no doubt that is largely representative of most Canadians. If I had to make up a statistic on the spot, I'd go with 74.753% of Canadians don't even know what the senate does. Also according to this poll it was only 53% that said senate reform was important not 89%. The will of the people is not contained within a survey conducted on roughtly 5000 British Columbians. That's a survey of one region and is not tantamount to a referendum. Further to that end some of the quesitons don't even make sense and aren't even yes or no questions. example.

You're right gay people are all quite different from one another. But the flagrant debauchery of pride festivities is largely, largely exaggerated. The nudity is minimal and largely consists of topless women, which in the province of Ontario is entirely legal. The great falsehood of our time is that Pride is just for gay people to laud it over the non-gays, it's not; it’s for friends, family and anyone who wants to join in. It's about diversity and celebrating yourself. Do some people take it too far; yes the same can be said about any group.

Sure if that's the perspective you want to take I guess that's your call. The comparison however, is tenuous at best. Perhaps I'm misreading this or not taking it in the context in which you intend. But as written, it seems like you're advocating facism. The state is right and beyond question? I'm certain that's not your meaning. So which is it? Avant Garde or mainstream I'm confused. As mentioned earlier perhaps 25 years ago it was not mainstream, one could hardly make that arguement now. You hit the nail on the head. Once upon a time in the not too distant past left handedness was strongly discouraged. Further back they were considered deviant and even further back evil. In modern times at most left handedness is an inconvenience, especially when using scissors. Being gay is not an imaginary oppression as you have stated I assure you it is quite real. It's easy to scoff when you're not in a position where you need to deal with the bigotry, prejudice or cajoling that is part and parcel with being gay. Is it as bad as it was 25 years ago, of course not; society has come a long way since that time. However, until I can walk down the street holding hands with my partner without being harassed, harangued or cajoled I won't have someone such as you pontificating to me that this is all in my head. It's real and it’s a part of everyday life. If you think it’s about special treatment your sadly mistaken, it’s about equal treatment, and it’s about being able to live and let live. This “oppressed” WASP POV is ludicrous at best. Be that as it may this is a severe digression from the topic at hand and you have still failed to prove as to why it is the Calgary stampede, which again is of interest to a limited segment of our population should receive federal funds while gay pride should not.

Whether it is at odds with conventional "wisdom" is frankly immaterial. The fact remains the Calgary stampede is a frivolous, unnecessary and very niche parade. It's all a matter of perspective really. So basically maintain the status quo regardless of the cost? A woman not being allowed to vote was once conventional wisdom so too was owning slaves. The earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth both were "facts" of "conventional wisdom" once upon a time. To me this indicates a trend that “conventional” does not of necessity equal “wisdom”. I'm not sure where you're from August or of your age but I'd hardly call Toronto pride a sans-culotte, avant garde revolution. Perhaps this was an apt description nigh on 25 years ago, but in modern times it's hyperbole to say the least. Most of the attendees and participants are just regular people like you and me. All ages, races, religions and various back grounds. It's a celebration of diversity and the freedom of being who you are free from ridicule and contempt. They're not opposite sides in the least; the pride parade is a cultural and tourist event. Lifesite or whatever they're called is a political advocacy group that has no interest in promoting cultural or tourist events. They're promoting their values and that is all. If the government were to give them money, simply because they're giving it to the "gays" they would not see the anywhere near the same return on their investment. Pride Toronto is about advocacy as well but it's not their sole reason d’être. The main difference is lifesites is fighting to limit the rights of others, pride Toronto is fighting to maintain and advance those same rights. Not sure where you've been the last 50 or so years but this isn't new in the least. The government has been handing out grants like this for decades. Not just anyone who asks for cash gets it. You have to have criteria setup to ensure it's a good investment and the return, whether monetary or otherwise you get for your investment is sufficient. Oddly enough we're still here these many years later. Contrary to social conservative "conventional wisdom" Gays are not responsible for all the ills of society. Sure they'd love to blame them for everything from corrupting the youth to break down of hetero marriages everywhere and the lion's share of the national debt. Reality is this isn't the case. Because you disagree with something or don't understand it, doesn't mean it is bereft of value; especially when that value, over and above the cultural contributions, can be measured in dollars and cents.

Sadly the average Joe couldn't afford politics. It's an expensive game and if you want to join one of the big two you have to have a substantial nest egg built up to do it. That is why politics is rife with the "well to do".

I wouldn't say everyone is in agreement that gay pride parades alone shouldn't get a hand out. I think the consensus is more that cultural events shouldn't be funded including pride. I happen to disagree with this assertion, anything that is good for tourism is good for Canada.

Not sure they'll be able to distance themselves from it. Interesting CBC article. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...ontreal008.html Which minister is going to get the blame for this one and how will they explain it away this time?

80% of Canadians want to abolish/reform the senate? Also 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

HAH I completely forgot about that Molly. Just like anyone who thinks a minority can govern as a majority should ask Joe Clark how well that works.

The point you miss is this is not only Torontonian's that are in attendance, its people from all over NA. So in fact it is generating tax revenues over and above what would normally be generated. It also infuses cash into the local economy that wouldn't otherwise be there. It's basic tourism principals and that's why the government budgets for tourism events. So you're right people who have money will spend it, this event ensures they spend it in Canada not their local area bars etc. As for military spending I can't comment on that as I'm not sure what the numbers are. But I'm fairly certain we spend a great deal more on defense spending than we do on tourism funding. I'm certain if we compared the two budgets the gap would be substantial. How much is enough Argus? Is the government not budgeting enough or is the DND not allocating it properly? Is the structure in need of revamping? Where's the disconnect? Honestly this is off the thread topic and would be more suitable in the thread dedicated to it.

You're right not many people care about it except those who are truly devout Catholics. Like I said I doubt it happened but Harper is too smart to screw up like this. Considering the polls he's not in a position to jeopardize any amount of potential votes. He may not be particularly pragmatic but he's certainly politically savvy.

It's doubtful this occurred. Harper is many things but stupid simply isn't one of them. There's no way he would ever risk alienating ever catholic voter in this country. Regardless of his own personal beliefs I have every bit of faith that he would do the politically expedient thing and take the communion as proscribed.

Looks like the gays aren't the ones that are overcompensating, however I digress. The federal funding isn't necessary and as I stated earlier the government received roughly $18 Million in tax revenues as a result of the event. The event has funded itself for decades and the federal funds are not necessary to keep it going. The funds were used to further enhance the event. Reality is the government budgets 'x' amount of dollars for tourist and cultural events and anyone who goes through the application process and meets the standards is eligible for it. The numbers are estimates but they're hardly made up. Toronto pride draws roughly 1.2 million people, if each person spent roughly $100 dollars each that would easily reach the $100 Million mark. Spending $100 is easy enough to do at the event; some folks spend that on booze alone. Do you honestly expect our government to spend every dime on the military?

I still fail to see the difference. You seem to imply that the Calgary Stampede is not a "lifestyle" choice which in fact it is, just like those who oppose gay pride events feel that being gay is a “lifestyle” choice. Do I enjoy the Calgary stampede or anything about it? Absolutely not, it's absolutely ridiculous in my never humble opinion but to each their own. I understand the tourist draw it is for Calgary and all the more power to those who do enjoy it, just not my cup of tea. Further the government already does decide who gets funding and who does not. The Toronto Pride organization was not handed the money, they went through the entire application process like all the other organizations that got funding. It’s a stringent process and there are strict guidelines that need to be followed. Some organizations make the cut others do not. As for you assertion that the lifesite should get funding because the “gays” do its based on an erroneous assumption that they are opposite sides of the same coin. If lifesite can go through the same application process and prove that they are in fact a tourist draw and contribute to the cultural diversity of Canada than they will get funding to hold their cultural event. My guess is they wouldn’t be able to meet the standards. The fact remains that the Toronto Pride organization went through the process and jumped through all the same hoops that other organizations did, like the Calgary stampede which means they have as much right to access tax payer funding as the rest do. That’s the rules that are in place, so the only option is to not fund anything. If you can prove to me on a fundamental level that the Calgary stampede is really all that different than Toronto Pride I’ll agree with you. Bottom line is they’re both completely unnecessary, and strictly cultural and niche entertainment events.

I'd tend to disagree, the returns would have be there certainly but the more funding at their disposal the bigger the event the bigger the tourist draw. This is not a matter of Toronto Pride needing federal funds, It has substantial corporate backing and fund raisers of its own. There are plenty of corporations out there that want to appear gay friendly and are more than happy to accept gay money. The federal funds were just icing on the cake and enabled them to make the event that much better. If we're going to fund events like the Calgary Stampede or the Ottawa Jazz Festival I see no problem in also funding the Toronto Pride event. They're really all the same, they're events that appeal to a limited group of people and arguably only benefit them directly. Public funds are utilized but the entire public doesn't reap the benefit of the spending if they don't enjoy that particular event. OTH they do get their money back plus the additional revenues generated by the event. So in my mind we either stop all funding to ANY event or we continue to fund Toronto Pride the same way we do with other "niche" celebrations.

Meow! I wouldn't go so far as to call them Trotskyites but I certainly agree with your assessment. I too find it quite perplexing that Ignatieff's and Dion's education levels are oft cited as handicaps. It still confuses me as to why this is the case. Historically, with a few rare and recent exceptions our PM's have been quite well educated, lawyers mostly but a Doctor, a smattering of teachers and Profs. Education broadens the mind it doesn't narrow it. The job of narrowing one’s mind lies squarely on the shoulders of generally under-educated social conservatives.

Most people would be suprised, and those who oppose it of course won't believe it. http://www.xtra.ca/public/Toronto/Pride_To...usion-6662.aspx So $18 million in tax revenue, even if that is a generous estimate the amount of return the Feds received in tax revenues for a paltry 400k investment is staggering. Assuming of course that Ontario gets about 2/3's of that as the provincial tax rate is 8% and the Feds get about 1/3 that's still close to $6 million in taxes. That's 15 times as much as they invested. So come on is it REALLY about the money or is it something else? Fortunately the Provincial government is a little more forward thinking.

Wow I didn't realize the stampede got THAT much money, but then again it is a huge tourist draw from all over NA. I personally think chaps, denim shirts and cowboy hats look ridiculous but I respect a man’s right to sport them should he so choose; Even if it is with the assistance of my tax dollars. Cultural events are important to a country, and the stampede, as with the TO pride and other such parades are large part of that. I think Sabre Rider hit the nail on the head, it's not about the amount of money it's the fact that the money went to a Gay Pride event. At least posters such as lictor are up front about their true motivations for opposing it. Unfortunately for them the parade will continue as it always has whether they like it or not.

Ummm... aren't chaps buttless and frontless by definition? Otherwise they'd be pants. However, I digress. Not a surprise that this site went over the top of their descriptions of the TO pride parade. Public nudity, well yes it happens, public sex acts, ummm never. I've been to TO pride personally on many occasions and it's a wild party in some places, but the parade itself is relatively tame. It's certainly no more raucous than Caribana which is another popular TO event. The problem with these family groups is they don't realize how much revenue Pride week generates for the city of Toronto. It's the largest event in NA and people from all over NA attend. Hotels are booked solid months in advance, you can't get a seat anywhere in or around the village at a restaurant without waiting 1 hour plus. Reality is Pride has been funded at the civic, provincial and federal levels for the last few years because it IS such a revenue generator. Last year’s estimated attendance was 1.2 million, that’s significantly larger than the cultural Carabana festival and not much smaller than the Santa Clause parade. I personally don’t see much of a difference in funding any of the three of these parades. You’ll find people that will give reasons why anyone of them shouldn’t be funded. Bottom line is, they’re all good for the bottom line and all fits well within the realm of tourism. The truth is we have a budget set aside for tourism events, it only stands to reason that the largest events in Canada are going to get the lion’s share of that money. Like it or lump it the gays, especially gay men, have a lot more disposable income than straight people, it's par for the course of not having children. They spend it at pride and the city, province and country reaps the lucrative rewards. It may not be a smart political move in some circles but certainly is a fiscally smart one. I’m disappointed, but not at all surprised, at the CPC’s reaction and handling of this situation.

With a margin of error of 3.1% this isn't really a lead it's a statistical tie. Really the margin of error has been around the 3% mark for most of the polls in the last while. This really isn't much of a change in either of their numbers. They've both consistantly been in the 30's and it far too soon to make any judgements on what this portents if anything at all.