michele

WIP there is some truth to what you say here: The Lord keeps confirming his voice to me... If he didn't I would have fallen or bowed to men long ago. He's my daily bread. I think your right WIP...many of the books supposedly for unbelievers are actually books that strengthen the faith of those new to Christ. They need to be propped up for sure. One size fits all?.. Christ died for all and his blood covers all who come to him. He said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me". John 12: 32 A great thought for Easter morning!!

You said: Yes Bubber..You speak the truth towards believers: This was difficult for me Bubber... It was in front of my eyes all the time but l didn't see it. I had to wait before the Lord with a right heart believing.

I'm not sue if this understanding of mine is correct or not but it might be seen as the difference between sins of the flesh and sins of the heart. Those of the flesh being lesser than those sins of the heart. Sins of the heart would be things like jealousy or unforgiveness. Sins of the flesh would be things like to much food..the wrong kind of sex. While fornication and gluttony are hated by God he examines the condition of the heart first. Do you love your neighbor and are you at least trying to keep your heart right about other people and understanding the meaning of throwing the first stone? God examines us in this way because he's good. His judgements and mercies are just and fair. He desires mercy above all else.

Lester...Get along with each other? Religious harmony? Jesus says l didn't come to bring peace but a sword! "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matt 10:34 Luke 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; This is why people leave Christ out. Because he opposes all but the truth.

I haven't read all of this string but l have read many of your comments about God. How can we know for sure? This is the big question. (also..Here we are speaking of the God of the Bible. The God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. The Old Testament is the back bone of the 3 major world religions..Islam, Judaism and Christianity). So how can we know for sure? Do we have to read our Bible first? Here's the answer! Everyone has their own language. Each person has a thumbprint so to speak. God speaks your language. Boy that's good news! Boy that's hope! You don't have to go into his world...He comes into yours. He knows what you know, don't know and believe. Give your questions to him and wait. If your heart is truly seeking after him he will know and answer you. But mean it. Don't be flippant with the creator of the universe.. but be excited because it's the most amazing journey you will ever take and you will never be sorry. There's a cost attached to this. Will you pay it? Most won't..

Yes CC...There are people who actually believe in the God of the Bible. It's a fearsome thing to do...believe l mean. Scripture says "He's a rewarder of those who deligently seek him." How? How does he reward us? By revealing himself. Then comes the responsibility of knowledge and we all fall short in our walk. Christ's sacrifice is for just that very thing. When God reveals himself it throws you for a loop. You're shocked. What do you do? Do you run? Keep on going? Pray more? Read the Bible? Go to Church? What? You tell me what a person does who's encountered the one true living God? What sacrifice will you give for that knowledge and personal relationship? Will you thumb your nose and return to your friend doubt? How utterly and completely boring that would be. Always arguing and fighting and finding excuses not to believe. Always worried about not being good enough or acceptable or doing something wrong. This is a heart issue. Let him help your unbelief.. He love us. He humbled himself to become a man for us..teach us and then die for us... His teachings aren't so hard. Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and and strength and your neighbor as yourself.. He tells us "If you love me you'll do what l say"...What does he say? Pick up your Bible and find out. When God reveals himself you become hungry for more more more..It's never enough. Then you scream STOP GOD...So he stops and you scream MORE GOD MORE.. You can't even imagine what you are missing! And the amazing thing is..He's around you all the time waiting for you to respond. He's ever drawing you..Don't miss the awesome opportunity to know God through Christ. Time is always running out.

This is actually good news Bubber! This is the hope of Christ! No one ever has been able to meet the standard..all have sinned and come short.. The law of the Old Testament was a demonstration of this. Christ is our cover charge...He paid our bail..Rejoice and be glad!

I don't have time this morning...but don't forget the guy on the cross next to Jesus...case in point.

WIP says: See it isn't our interpretation that gives eternal life but our acceptance and belief that Christ's shed blood is our covering..That he rose from the dead...when we believe we confess it with our mouths... as you have alluded to when you addressed the proselytizing issue. There are a lot of other creative ways to reach people rather than standing on corners or knocking on doors...People just don't want to get out of there comfort zone. PLUS ... (the big plus)... They don't know what the Bible says themselves and so rather than risk being exposed as a secular Christian they just go through the motions... Yes... it is sad. They do believe but use the controversy surrounding interpretations as their excuse not to read and trust the Holy Spirit to lead them in understanding..It takes time and effort. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That's why many get in as barely escaping the flames. I've had to learn on my own because the church l go to teaches more of the bare basics. They are trying to create community for hurting lost souls...I've only recently come to understand how Israel was originally divided into two nations. Israel and Judah..Just basic Jewish history which every Christian should know. Each has to be responsible for studying themselves. WIP says: I hope that maturity has taught you that this is a heart issue and not a theological one.Do you really believe the preponderance of the evidence...and if you do what the consequences of that belief are...the cost of discipleship so to speak... WIP...God is love. And he's a personal God.... not some non thinking ether. If you believe just that, then logic tells you that he had to leave something tangible..provable and concrete for mankind..Because that kind of God would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line. And He did. The Bible. Read it and it will cure yours ills. Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you and know the darkside is just as real and is constantly opposing those who try to break down strongholds. That's why when you say this; l'm again reminded that people, once saved will go through a honeymoon period of revelation and then God expects them to act on behalf of their belief and take the responsibility of knowledge. We can't be always looking at what other people tell us but must read it for ourselves..but this can't be done if you don't believe God is love.... and he would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line.

Hi OB..I just now read your other post too. I didn't see it before. I guess l'm not quite sure what you mean? Do you think the Bible is just a book of men with philosophies based on Christ's teachings?

Wip, I didn't mean to be offensive about your wife...when you said "such as my wife, who could be described as a liberal Catholic - she agrees with me on many of my beliefs, but for some reason that's foreign to me, finds value in maintaining her connection the the church of her mother, father and forebears." .... l was reminded of a double minded person... like l am a lot of the time. It's hard not to be on the fence..It's hard to be a Christian. Some people stay in their Church because they're trying desperately to hang on to some sort of moral compass...but the whole lump is leavened. We are to "occupy" until he comes. (Such an appropriate word). There ARE good grapes scattered here and there. In every church God has a people. In my personal opinion...it has nothing to do with the church they're in...it's not a religion but a relationship with Christ. These poor souls not only battle the world but they stand battered within the church. Rejected on both fronts........................... You said "fumbling in the dark"...sure. When people are born into this new life they are born as babes a new...and people go through stages as they struggle to run the race and reach maturity. Nobody is born being there It's a struggle between flesh and spirit.. kind of like fence sitting. The world sees the fleshly struggle and judges the church the same way the church judges the world.. WIP says: Jesus said "I am the way the truth and light...no man comes to the Father but by me". It's not about religion it's about believing the God has the power to preserve his written word for mankind from beginning to end. Do you think if God is, who he says he is, he could do this? I feel sorry for you about your Mom and Dad.. I went to church alone as a child. I grew up in the 50's and it was the culturally acceptable thing to go to church. Since l had an 8 year old "experience", l would go to Sunday school with my 2 sisters. My father would drop us off. My sisters would go right home after having been made to go to Sunday school. I would stay for the church service by myself and then walk home afterwards. I look back at how amazing that is..and how it must have looked to other people... seeing this lone girl sitting Sunday after Sunday...nobody said boo to me...Funny...l still go alone. My husband is a disillusioned X-Catholic.

WIP says: It's true WIP... You have to want it for yourself bad enough. It has to be your first priority. God doesn't turn anybody down...But he also doesn't go around proving himself because people have a temper tantrum. Your wife wouldn't be riding the fence if she'd had a close encounter with Christ...and she probably wouldn't be sitting in a Catholic Church much longer. The church as a whole has become corrupt with the Catholics leading the way. But the Protestants have their own brand of corruption. According to Biblical history this always happens before judgement is allowed to take place by ones own enemies...Sad huh...But WIP..there's always a few good grapes left...He would have spared Sodom for 10..Has he changed since then? No. But he chastises those he loves and the shaking will cause the fence sitters to shift to one side or the other...then the end will come. Nice talking to you...I'm thinking you want to be on your way... l hope you find it.

God has the real...the enemy has the counterfiet..There is no middle road...only dangerous deception. The enemy bares much fruit in the church setting because of a lack of knowledge... (My people perish for a lack of knowledge) It takes a good understanding of the word and the help of the Holy Spirit to not be fooled in todays church and world.

The kind of meditation l did took me beyond most teachers of the practice. It took me to places that were without controls. These dangerous places on the dark side of the DMZ gave me a wake up call out of those deep states of meditation. There's a lot to be said about being still before the Lord...but we aren't to be blank receivers and prostitute our minds to any old radio station..(say yuk three times) When l stopped my 'practice' l didn't know any religious doctrine. I only knew Sunday School stories..Noah's ark...Easter and Christmas...I didn't even know Jesus was suppose to come back... Never heard it once in my life until l was in my late twenties. Everything l stopped l stopped because my conscience showed me it went to far..not because of anything else. In fact it taught me to really believe...It drove me to Christ. Belief is generic. I knew l'd taken a wrong turn. The really compelling thing is rest. The gospel is so simple and yet so complex. I had enough of the complex. I choose to rest in the simplistic part of Christianity. Jesus as Lord of all and his message of Loving God with all your heart etc. and your neighbor as yourself...not hard to understand unless one chooses to make it hard. I've been involved in social services in one way or another ever since then..It's what l do.

WIP says: You're right WIP...the inner subjective witness must have confirmation by two or more witnesses and must line up with the tangible word of God. Buddhism doesn't have anything tangible. Just statues of men with mystical experiences. I was deeply into meditation at one time in my life. (no pun intended) I understand it's point...but l choose another. When l was into this train of thought l could watch the compass spin...I could occasionally see auras...So what...I choose Jesus instead because he did it for me. I got tired of doing it myself and trusting in nothing. I understand to some extent the power in the religious philosophy behind the martial arts..I took Tai Chi long enough to experience the chi moving me places l didn't want to go. See it isn't that l deny the reality of all the other ways...i just choose Jesus. Why? Because l like what he teaches. The simple truth of love and service. What's not to want? You don't have to accept him. You can trust in yourself or other men.. Been there done that. Laminin...It's just a sign WIP... There's lots of those general type witnesses. But you can miss the forest for the trees if you look to hard and long. There's a need to step back and get perspective...

As far as Descartes goes... Doubting Thomas is nothing knew. Lot's of people have to touch the scars. It's Ok...If our heart is right he lets us touch...He's not even closed to proof. Just get your motives right first. He'll do the rest.

WIP says: You're wrong WIP..I do think we can be wrong. Our seeing isn't perfect. Have you ever heard of preponderance of the evidence? If l have a 4 piece puzzle and one piece is missing is it possible to know what the picture is? Sure it is..."This is called seeing through a glass darkly" Say I have an event connected to scripture or some other thing in my life that happens and l think the Lord wants to show me something...Two other unrelated things happen or two other persons bring witness. That's 3 pieces. The missing piece is faith.. Are you going to admit to yourself first that you're seeing the picture with 3 pieces only? I've been wrong. I've also cluttered the issues with my own speculation. (many times) But l'm growing and so far God's grace is my covering. I try to keep my heart right..not allowing myself to be drawn into useless arguing. I bring a message only. It's not up to me to prove it but l do exhort you to keep your eyes and ears open. Pay attention to life for God is ever revealing himself.

This forum won't let me post pictures but check this out; http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...=1&ie=UTF-8 Have you ever heard of the cohesion protein molecule called 'laminin'? It is THE protein that holds us together. It is THE protein that creates the "basement" or foundational structures of our bodies! Each and every animal - beast and human alike - uses the protein laminin to hold itself together. The laminin molecule is very good at creating "sheets" of itself that bind cells together into various structures. Laminin is extremely important to making sure that your overall body structures hold together. If laminin isn't produced correctly, your muscles may form improperly, giving you a form of muscular dystrophy. Or you may just fall apart in a way similar to aging, a condition called "progeria". "Lamb-in-in" Imagine the name of the molecule giving glory to JESUS CHRIST!

What l'm saying here is that if you're really trying to hear and are looking at the Bible, God isn't just going to leave you dangling. He will confirm his word with signs following. (Two or more witnesses) He will do it in a way that is designed just for you personally. He will do it for Susie in another way and Bob the mathmatician in another. The point is...God is awsome and can reveal himself to whoever he wants. You just can't fool him. "He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him"

WIP says: I don't know what everybody else gets unless the Lord shows me. How do l know that what l'm getting is from God? It depends on what your talking about. But l would say subjective witness via the Holy Spirit with signs following. I haven't studied all those passages l quoted WIP...but l have studied other things that bring scientific evidence. But one thing in all my experience...and even with signs and wonders following...there is always the missing piece that only faith can fill. It's "impossible to please God without faith" I don't know about you but l like that prerequisite...There's a lot to be said about proof though. Especially the proof in fulfilled historical written prophecy. I think you know some of this but don't have order to it. This isn't my area of expertise...

WIP says: But who are they demanding answers from WIP? God? Or somebody else? I saw this the other day and copied it to a file. I've only studied some. The Bible is more than people think. Wip says: Not so for many. They have gone on to study and look for themselves. WIP says: but..there's only one Jesus...Who is he? Wip says: When you're really saved you want to do good works...You don't have to do good works. You know a man by his fruit..not by works or gifts.. Was the man next to Christ on the cross baptised? God knows the beginning from the end. I see God as having a great big filmstrip stretched out from hand to hand...The beginning in his right the end in his left..It's all alive and moving.

WIP, You're parents were just 2 lost people seeking...It's hard to personally disconnect though isn't it..

Only thing is...there's no written preadamic account. And even if there was a preadamic race like some people think the Bible teaches in Genesis...it isn't the point. The real point and l know we all agree, is that men have been killing each other ever since it was written down. WIP said: Fullfilled written prophecy. You're a learned man...just do a little reasearch. You can find this evidence in few hours on line. I can look too. I just don't know if I'll have time. It's interesting though..I'll see what l can find but it might not be right away. And WIP...if you think about the logic behind the trinity it's kind of exciting. I know you're logical because of an insightful statement you made about the Privileged Planet. Here you said: I agree...but just because we don't know what the reason is doesn't mean it doesn't exist. God said "My Fathers house has many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you". That could mean a lot of things. Have you ever thought that heaven might not actually be "up" but dimensional? Or perhaps both? (Which to me makes more sense ..but l don't know l'm just speculating).

WIP says: I want to comment on this and the the interesting question you posed about the mind of God in relation to the Privileged Planet...I just don't have time today..later. Thanks for the conversation.

WIP..You talk about war and murder but you know as well as l that war has been with man since Cain killed Abel..It's never ever left us. It's the curse my friend. The Bible says "They cry peace peace...but there is no peace".. And you know why. Because we're waiting for the prince of peace to come to come as king of kings and Lord of all. To put war under his foot once and for all. Only then will there be peace. God allows things to happen.