Wild Bill

Here's a link from the National Post about the Brown trial in Caledonia: http://www.nationalpost.com/most-popular/story.html?id=2273320 "HAMILTON -- Recent videos of two flag-waving marches along the main street in Caledonia, passing a site that has been occupied by native protesters since 2006, were shown in court on Thursday, starkly highlighting the different reactions of police to aboriginal marchers and Caledonia residents. The videos make it appear as though the Canadian flag has been outlawed in the area by the Ontario Provincial Police." Watching the coverage on CHCH, the local TV station, has been very interesting. The lawyer for McGuinty's government has been doing some strange things. There was a video of Brown standing on his back porch, under a huge spotlight from native protesters assembled in his back yard used to make it difficult for he and his family to sleep. Brown is videotaping the natives and they are yelling at him that he is interfering with their "rights" by doing so. The government lawyer actually asked Brown if he didn't realize that he was abusing the protesters' rights. When he did so, there was a loud gasp and boos from the audience! For the lawyer to insinuate that BROWN was at fault in such a situation was incredible! I am very surprised that McGuinty has allowed himself to end up in this position. He could have bought out Brown early on in the conflict and removed him as a source of future embarrassment. Now he has succeeded in getting his two-tiered, racially-based policing policies onto the national stage, with the trial being featured not just on the local TV and paper but also the CBC-National, the National Post and others. Oh well, nobody ever said McGuinty was a rocket scientist...

Here's the ultimate! Muppets doing Bohemian Rhapsody! http://www.gadgetvenue.com/muppets-bohemian-rhapsody-1080p-youtube-11255952/

I've never been able to understand how when a Liberal like Hedy Fry says something outrageous like cross burnings in B.C. it's dismissed as just one Liberal saying something goofy, but when a Tory says something goofy it's attributed to the entire party, as in "Gee, don't hold back, tell us what the Tory party really feels about employed people". Talk about your proverbial double standard!

Really? Just what objectives have been achieved? What have the warriors gotten out of it? What have the townspeople gotten out of it? What incentive is there for the townsfolk to "normalize" the relationship? What logical reason do they have to ever trust SN again?

That's not news to me! I've had CR on 'ignore' for a couple of years now. You're right, he has a single minded agenda. This means I always know what he will say and I can always count on him delivering it in a snotty, condescending and insulting manner. It was from CR that I learned that I must be a racist since the definition is anyone who disagrees with him about native protest actions. I don't have that many folks on my 'ignore' list. I don't mind at all listening to people who disagree with me and often I learn something new. It's just that I find CR so uncivil that it makes debate too unpleasant to be worth it. In my school days we used to call people like that 'nuddzis', but an explanation would take several pages of thread drift! Life's too short to bother!

That's not how reality works. As I have said, the tactics of the SN protesters directly affected the townspeople, first and foremost! The only effect on the politicians was some embarrassment from hearing the cries of the townsfolk. Politicians are used to that. It wasn't McGuinty who had to cross a protest line and show some BS passport to get to his home. It wasn't Diane Finley who had ATV's in her back yard all night. One would almost think that SN protesters AVOID directly targeting politicians! These tactics are what inevitably lead to escalation. Again, as I have said before, someone living in Caledonia is NOT going to put up with being cannon fodder for the native protesters in their dispute with the governments! He is NOT going to simply shrug his shoulders and say "Oh well, the natives are pissed at the governments so I guess that means I should just grin and bear it!" The natives are hurting HIM! That leads to a feeling of entitlement to retaliate. As Bruce Cockburn once sang "If I had a rocket launcher, I'd make somebody pay!" Part of the problem is that somehow the SN protesters think that non-natives think of themselves as part of a tribe, a tribe which includes our governments. Nothing could be more wrong! Most non-natives see governments as something separate in themselves, over which we have little control. We see ourselves as individuals and individuals are not prone to collective guilt. So if protesters block our entry to our homes we don't just sit there feeling ashamed because governments have failed to make natives happy. Governments have failed to make everyone else happy as well! The outcome is that before the protests non-natives often felt it was them and natives against a common enemy, namely government. Now the townsfolk feel they are alone, that both SN and governments are against them. Frankly, the tactics of SN seem to have been very primitive, inept and poorly focused. With a bit more forethought they could have had the townsfolk on their side from the very start. Now it's too late. Meanwhile, McGuinty has made it perfectly clear to every citizen in Ontario that if it's politically expedient citizenship means nothing in terms of police protection. You will be on your own. This is not a healthy state of affairs.

Goggled up this article on the Brown property: http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/676881 "The couple paid $225,000, less than market value, and put another $30,000 into renovations in the basement for Dana's hairdressing business." "The property is currently appraised at $50,000 to $75,000." And this from 2006: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/06/14/to-caledonia.html "Since the dispute began, Lawyer John Findlay says property values in the community have plummeted as Caledonia earned a reputation for being unsafe. He says two major businesses have signed on to the lawsuit, and he expects the number to grow. The lawsuit is also open to homeowners. About 400 local businesses have been deemed eligible for emergency financial aid from the province, up to $500,000 in total." The online real estate ads seem vague. Not that many actual prices listed. This only makes sense. A salesman always wants to keep prices up, if he can. Again, I'm going to see if my family contacts can get the inside scoop, which is usually far more accurate.

All well and good, Max, but as I said, the quarrel is not about the land claims. It's about the TACTICS of the SN protesters! I can tell you that it's human nature to resent who hits you and not "the guy that made me hit you!". If you lived there and your power was gone, your roads blockaded by angry, flag waving protesters and all the rest of it, would you just say to yourself "Oh dear! I guess it's perfectly understandable that they are doing this to me personally, since the politicians have hurt them!" The very concept is ridiculous. Targeting innocents in pursuit of political goals is simple terrorism, by definition. Frankly, for native protests to harm townsfolk is racist. The townsfolk for the most part have little or no control over what governments have done to natives. But then again, to me, the concept of tribalism smells of racism. As I've often said, I put blame on individuals, not on groups or races. If someone hurts me, I want to repay that specific person in kind. I really don't care if he has some sort of political agenda as an excuse. That's why I say that I would have more respect for the SN protesters if they targeted the governments and the politicians. Why not drive ATV's through Diane Finley's backyard all night? Why not blockade the street where McGuinty and his family lives? I don't see much difference between the TACTICS of the SN protesters and Hamas terrorists launching random rocket attacks that fall into Israeli residential areas, except for the degree of harm. The moral principles to me seem quite similar. Meanwhile, I just can't believe you when you claim that Caledonia property values have held up. I have family in the real estate business. Perhaps they can confirm or deny your claim. As always, money talks and BS walks.

Doesn't seem so! Of course, things happened very quickly and the initial reaction to somebody blocking your town, cutting off your power and screaming in your face is to get angry and lash back. The OPP made the initial bonehead botched raid to try to move the protesters out. They went in with grossly insufficient manpower and were chased out. Afterwards, the politicos got involved. Here in Ontario one of the ways our present premier achieved power had been by the criticism of the former premier, Mike Harris, for the way he had handled a native protest at Ipperwash, ON. Tragically, a native had been shot and killed by the OPP. The Liberal Opposition had seized this and by the time they were finished they had made it sound like Mike Harris had actually fired the gun himself! Now they had a similar problem so at all costs they did not want the OPP to escalate the situation. It would appear they made the decision to have a two-level policing policy. They were afraid the native protesters were armed and certainly they had shown they were willing to be violent. The townsfolk of course were mostly typical Canadians and could safely be pushed around. You know the old joke about how you get 50 Canadians out of your swimming pool? You simply ask "Canadians, would you be good enough to get out of my pool?" Caledonia had always depended heavily on tourism. That's taken a huge hit, of course. Property values have plummeted, so people can't get their equity out if they want to leave. If you're still interested in silly protester quotes, you might google for "Janie Jamieson". I seem to remember some reporters asking her about how natives had extended their protest line to the other side of a bridge and watching her deny it had happened. When she was told that there was video tape she promptly stated that the tape must have been doctored and it was all an imaginary ruse to make natives look bad! Some of the hyperbole from this lady was just mind-boggling. You got the impression that in her world all natives were always right and never wrong, that evil could ONLY be done by non-natives! McGuinty's problem is that the Caledonia issue has not gone away. Obviously he was hoping that someone like the feds would have gotten him off the hook. It never happened and things continue to fester. Now he has a lawsuit over his policing policies that is receiving national attention. I'm not aware of any protest in our history that has hurt so large a town for so long. As I said, the problem is protest TACTICS! People hardly even care about the land claims anymore. Worse yet, McGuinty has sent the message that those tactics WORK! It's only logical for other protesters to use similar means in other situations. Why not?

Yeah, I'd love to see it too! I've always believed in going after specific individuals rather than labeling people as groups. Yes, I've seen direct quotes from protesters saying such positions. Unfortunately, I tried to do a google for you and so far the sheer volume of material is such that I haven't been able to come up with a specific link for you. I'll try again when I get more time. If you're interested, perhaps the best source would be the local newspaper. Go here: http://www.thespec.com When you get there you can do a 'quick search' for "Caledonia protest". There's pages and pages of articles. The dates of the articles will give you a good sense of how things developed. The whole affair sometimes reeks to me of some adolescent protest, as if some university students with more energy than wisdom used Caledonia for their own agenda. In their zeal they have perhaps caused more damage than good. The issue of native land claims in the area has been overshadowed by distaste for their protest tactics, while the relationship between the townsfolk and Six Nations has been severely damaged. The "shills" deny this, of course. They always can dig up one or two far left non-natives to trot out and pretend that they represent a majority. Hopefully sanity will return to this area some day soon.

Sorry! Somehow I had thought you were in Manitoba. Doesn't change my point, though. As for how they could get AK-47's, we don't know yet what was actually in the crates. AK-47's was the OPP's guess. Still, getting them is not at all unbelievable, given the amounts of money involved and the ready access to the American border. Why would they need guns? Why did they need them in OKA, Quebec in that protest a decade ago. Lasagna was a Native Warrior involved in that protest. There is a famous photo from that time where he stood face to face with a Canadian soldier, in full cammo with a bandana mask. Should be an easy google. No one seems to talk about it these days but during the start of the Caledonia protest there was much talk about how it actually was not a local initiative at all. Apparently there were a number of young native rights militants from down south in America who had decided to come up and make Caledonia an example. There were a number of American law enforcement people up here as observers, with long dossiers on many of the individuals involved with the protest. Nobody knows what percentage of the residents of Six Nations actively support the protest. Not sure how you could take an accurate poll. Certainly, if it wasn't absolutely secret someone would have to be crazy to vote against the protest, for fear of reprisals. The saddest thing about Caledonia is that this militancy is a very new thing. For generations natives and townsfolk have been great neighbours, with much interaction, including intermarriage. While support for native rights has always been strong the support from the townspeople has taken a major hit because of the TACTICS of the protesters! Their actions have negatively impacted the townsfolk first and the politicians a distant second. This sort of thing can take generations to heal. Meanwhile, the 'foreign' instigators will have moved on, leaving the actual residents of Six Nations to cope with the problems. It was the townsfolk who lost their electricity for 3-4 days. It was the townsfolk who put up with road barricades for months. It was the townsfolk who sometimes endured vandalism and intimidation. Meanwhile, to date I have not heard a single media report of any native protesters blocking a road leading to the provincial premier's house, or driving ATV's through his backyard all night. What I find most illogical is the arguments put forth by the protesters' shills about how the townsfolk are not their enemy! It seems to boil down to the following: "Sorry we punched you in the face but hey, don't blame us! Your governments MADE us punch you! You should be out there protesting WITH us!" I'd laugh if it weren't so tragic.

TM, you've missed them! Such acts have been shown on video on the local tv station, CHCH-TV. Shortly after the protest had first begun the main electrical transformer was burned up, blacking out the entire region for 3-4 days. The native spokespeople denied any involvement and tried to blame it somehow on "townsfolk racist ninja vigilantes" who just wanted to make the protesters look bad. If that were true they must have been ninjas indeed, considering the transformer was behind the protesters own lines and very difficult if not impossible for a non-native to access. There is video footage of two TV cameramen being beaten and robbed of their equipment. Lots of shots of flagwaving and taunts being screamed. I don't know if the video is available on the TV station's website or somewhere else on the web but I and thousands of others have personally seen this stuff on the evening news. I will point out that I have never seen any guns brandished amongst the protesters on the TV news or in the papers. This appears to be an exaggeration. That being said, there is a lawsuit against the OPP and the provincial government from a couple who have been living trapped behind the protest lines. In his court testimony the man has made the claim that he saw what appeared to be crates being loaded by native protesters with Russian-style lettering on the sides. He had phoned the police and they had admitted that the description could have been of AK-47 cases. I haven't heard anymore of this in the media yet. If you're interested these reports have been in both the Hamilton Spectator and the National Post. Perhaps you might like to search their websites. It's also true that there is a lot of organized crime involved in Six Nations, Hells Angels style. Cigarettes, booze, grass, drugs and guns are big money around Six Nations and also at Akwesasne, another border reserve near Kingston. A decade or so ago it was the main smuggling point for illegal cigarettes by boats across the Lake. The native chief tried to take a stand against the smuggling and had a few machine gun clips emptied into his back yard for his trouble! Shills will point out that non-natives have organized crime too. So what? It's the ones involved in the native protests that are the issue here. Like all organized crime, although its existence may be common knowledge it is very hard to prove anything. It's also not a very good idea, considering the possible repercussions. "Lasagna", the native warrior from OKA, would be quite at home on Six Nations these days. Actually, it could BE his home, for all we know! I'm not surprised that you haven't seen much of this out in Manitoba. It's only recently that Caledonia seems to be getting much national media attention. Better late than never, I guess.

Absolutely, Michael! If someone doesn't believe you, they should try a few posts over at "rabble.com". Frankly, I found it both juvenile and disgusting.

Max, did you actually read the story of what this couple has been through? Your post makes me think you didn't, especially when you blow them off as having waited "only 1.6 years". This couple had nothing to do with land claims or negotiations. They simply had the misfortune to have the only home behind the native protest lines. They were vandalized and intimidated. The OPP ignored their plight. He blew a hole in his roof 'cuz he fell asleep with a shotgun while in a chair, listening for someone possibly breaking into his house. Not a smart way to handle a firearm but after all, he was suffering literally from months of sleep deprivation. Could YOU sleep soundly every night in his situation? Have you personally ever seen a Caledonia native protest line up close? Those people are not acting like Wally and Beaver Cleaver. I really thought from reading your posts all this time that you had a bit more empathy than that for your fellow man...

Here's a link to Rex Murphy's commentary about Caledonia and the current lawsuit from CBC's "The National", aired Thursday, November 19. http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indepthanalysis/rexmurphy/story/2009/11/19/national-rexmurphy-091119.html "November 19, 2009 Reading the saga of David Brown and his wife Dana Chatwell – a family caught in the turmoil and lawlessness of the now-famous Caledonia protest and blockade over native land claims – I have really only one question. Why, after going through what they accurately describe as 496 days in hell, caught between the rock of indifference of all Ontario’s political authorities, and the extremely hard place of the barricades, burnings and harassment from the native occupiers, do these two have to go to court to receive some redress?" It's nice to see the Caledonia issue receiving such attention from our national broadcaster. No doubt the usual shills on this board will claim that Rex fabricated the entire issue just to make Six Nations protesters look bad...

You're right, it seems. Don't see that changes my point much, however. I was not trying to use an accurate tool so much as illustrate how "offical" explanations do not always match with reality. If I understand you correctly, there doesn't seem to be an official stat that measures living standard by the terms of total income being made up of spending for necessities and how much disposable income is left over to make living worthwhile. Perhaps that's not the sort of stats that governments like bruited about...

Easy credit is part of it Nat but there's much more going on! It used to be that the necessities were within the reach of the average one income family. It was the toys that were expensive. My father worked for the local steel company. He paid a mortgage on a house with that salary, bought a second hand car every couple of years and clothed and fed us kids. Buying our first colour TV was a BIG deal! He had saved up for months and months and when it was deposited in the living room we were all as happy and proud as we could be. Nowadays TVs are cheap. So are DVD players, MP3's and all that crap. It's the mortage and the car that's the killer! Mom has to work too but there's not a lot extra from her salary after you pay the day care costs. No wonder few parents have more than 2 kids. Cable or satellite fees for that TV are rather steep. So's gas and insurance for the car. Or cars, if both partners have one. I now work from home and I am very tempted to give up my vehicle. My customers come to me and the parts I need come by courier. Having no car while the wife is off to work would be a bit inconvenient but the savings are staggering when you add everything up! I used to believe the story we're always being fed that the cost of living hasn't changed much over the years. We're told that after you factor in inflation things are generally about the same. I no longer believe that at all. About 10 years ago I was learning about StatsCan and inflation indexes. I was shocked to learn that inflation is calculated with a typical family "basket" of goods, including bread, milk, rent or mortgage rates and other likely expenses for the average Canadian family, but that INCREASED TAXES ARE DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT! Considering that over the 90's we were nickeled and dimed with taxes and user fees on this, that and everything else to the tune of over 1000%! this seems a serious omission! To me, our standard of living is more accurately calculated by how much disposable income the average citizen has left over once he's paid for his necessities. The rest is available for fun and toys. In the late 60's and 70's young people thought nothing of driving 20 miles to see a favourite band at a favourite watering hole, up to 6 nights a week! Today that band rarely can find more than a couple of Saturday night gigs per month. People just can't afford drinking and dancing like they used to do. Everytime we start to get ahead we seem to get fleeced more, until the new status quo leaves us just as broke the day before payday. When Moms joined the work force the tax man, the utilities like electricity and heating, the insurance companies and generally everybody who had a hand in our wallet figured we could now afford a bit more. If it had been only one of them doing it we might have handled it but when they all had the same idea it quickly ate up most of that extra income and now two income families are the norm. Some people claim that folks today are just too greedy but I think that's rather a snap judgement. Take houses, for example. Old codgers can criticize younger folks for buying larger homes. My parents' house was 1200 square feet. Today, you never see a new development offering homes less than 2400 sq ft, all with 3 bedrooms, dining room and all the extras. What is never mentioned is that the developers are rarely ALLOWED to offer anything smaller! Municipalities have bylaws forcing developers to offer new homes of a certain minimum size, complete with all streets, sidewalks and services. This is so the city can have the maximum tax income immediately. You can go from empty fields to lucrative tax levies in less than 2 years of construction. So you can't buy a new 1200 sq ft home! You have to compete with everyone else for an older home, likely now in a neighbourhood no longer the nicest in which to raise your kids safely. There are countless other examples. I'm sure you get my point.

Since terrorist groups appear not to be signatories to any International Human Rights agreements, particularly those who behead western journalists for youtube video clips, perhaps we should ask if if it's possible to win against such enemies if hamstrung by the "good guy" rules? I'm not saying we should abandon all moral high ground in such situations but I truly think that when the opposition has no reciprocal respect for human rights and common humanity they have a TREMENDOUS advantage! In such scenarios, CAN we win? Or do we just lose, dying with a sense of deep moral superiority?

So Riverwind posits that the HST is good for us. I respond that if it is the effect is trivial. I cite some historical examples of how this has been a common diversionary tactic of some governments. Now you call this a non sequitur? I can understand that you might disagree but I'm afraid I don't see how my post was not related to the discussion. Or is it your position that anything you don't agree with is therefore a non sequitur, by definition?

Nobody's arguing about needs, Jerry. The problem is the "how"! I've yet to hear you offer a method of getting the changes made that you envision, except for your long lists of "needs". More simply, how do you get enough people on side with you to actually accomplish your goals? Don't tell us what you think should be done, tell us how you intend to get it done! Anybody can make a wish.

Chill out a bit, Argus! It's not logical to tar all natives with a Six Nations brush. There are 100's of different bands all across the country and not all of them have used Six Nations tactics. Six Nations is solely responsible for their own actions. I too consider their protest tactics to be that of uncivilized barbarians but I would never think that ALL natives are like them! Such an opinion is not only racist but illogical. All that being said, McGuinty allowed them to get away with what they've done. As I've said many times, I would have had much more respect for the Six Nations protesters if they just once drove their ATV's through McGUINTY'S back yard one night! Perhaps they have a secret arrangement with him. This is politics, after all.

One important thing you should keep in mind is that there is no ONE specific group called the "aboriginal people". There are hundreds of individual tribes, each with their own history and political goals, each having had differing amounts of success or failure, having applied different methods towards achieving them. So you can't lump a tribe in British Columbia in with Six Nations of Caledonia. It wasn't the Tlingit who protested at Oka in Quebec. There is much commonality, of course. You are going to have to do a great deal of research to get a proper perspective. They are all different peoples. Some may have issues that you would agree with while others may have claims that appear greedy or frivolous. Some may seem very law abiding and others may protest in ways that make them look like simple thugs. My point is that you must resist the temptation to paint them all with the same brush. This would be the very definition of racism. One obvious commonality would be how they all are governed by the Indian Act. As you investigate you will probably quickly see that this Act has serious flaws and has often not been a positive force towards Native Peoples. However, it would be wrong to cherry pick the flaws. I would suggest that it's biggest flaw is how it denies Natives the same right to property as other Canadians. This means that no bank manager in his right mind would give someone on a reserve a mortgage or a loan. There's no collateral if they default. So how can a Native get startup capital for a business? They are left with only some government programs and who would expect them to work any better than any other government programs, i.e. very poorly and inefficiently. That's just my opinion, of course. I've heard an argument that natives prefer to deal with property on a tribal basis, for cultural reasons. Maybe that's true, I can't say. Still, I doubt if anyone has ever properly asked any band their preference and allowed any changes. You've got quite an ambitious project on your hands! Keep us posted!

Well, he won't get your vote but he might get mine! So they cancel out. The real question is how many Ontario voters feel like Argus or like you! While you may not agree with the degree of Argus' sentiment, it's hard to deny that there is a populist tinge to the situation. Many Canadians, particularly in rural areas like Caledonia, have been raised to appreciate and respect civic "rules". I live not too far away and have known many people from the area nearly all my life. When you talk to them about how people like Brown and Chatwell were left with zero police protection or support you see that they were literally shocked to their core! All their lives they believed that the police would come when called, the Fire Department would be there when needed and that while politicians were all a shifty bunch nonetheless when push came to shove they supported people's rights and freedoms. While downtown Toronto may have some academic, ivory tower perspective to the citizens of Caledonia it looks like McGuinty has callously abandoned them! Anyone who thinks differently should go and ask at any Tim Hortons in the town. I have! You will get differing opinions about native land claims but the feeling seems almost unanimous that the townsfolk have been thrown to the wolves by McGuinty and particularly the OPP. No one seems to have bought the line that McGuinty didn't tell the OPP what to do. The good news for McGuinty is that this feeling seems to be very localized. You don't have to go very far away from Caledonia before people seem to have resisted changing the opinions of their lifetime. In Cayuga, a town only 15 minutes away, the feeling seems to be about 50/50. In Binbrook, another 15 minutes closer to Hamilton from Cayuga it seems to be about 1 in 3. Of the 2, they don't seem to believe that the "papers" are all that accurate anyway! In Hamilton itself, not as many people as you would think are even aware of what's been happening! To me, this only proves that we Canadians don't seem to easily change our perspectives. What's more, we don't really seem to have a strong sense of unity with each other. An New York cabbie might read his morning paper and be upset over seeing how someone's rights were trampled in California. A Canadian in Vancouver might read about Caledonia and he'll think "The papers must be exaggerating! And those people must have done something to ask for it!" Oh well...

The premise seems partly true. Anything that encourages business growth will theoretically add new jobs. The problem is that it only works on small business. A service shop or a warehouse, a variety store or a McRonalds, these might add a few new jobs to the economy. Big business like manufacturing that used to offer well paying jobs to the economy will just take the bonus advantages of a HST while merrily sending jobs to China anyway! All a harmonized sales tax will have done is to increase their profit margin. I'm not sure if governments are really just naive about how business works today or if they simply want the tax grab and are looking for some kind of great-sounding excuse that might fool the simple.

Fine! While you're at it, I'd like a pony for Christmas!