JB Globe

I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement that I've grown up as a Jew around Muslims my whole life. Do you think that I haven't been aware for years that some Muslims, just like some white goi's are anti-semetic? Shall I post anti-semitic cartoons made by white Christians as well? Because I'm assuming that most people here know that Muslims don't have a monopoly on anti-semitism.

Of course, you could say this of many European countries after WWII, but that didn't stop Canada from letting folks immigrate from places where there had just been fascist governments in place, and where the general population could be described as xenophobes - but did the sky fall in? Nope - people either integrated or their children did. I think you're underestimating the human capacity to adapt to different social situations. I think you're exaggerating with the beating - depending on the neighbourhood the woman might get yelled at and glared at, but Cairo, Damascus & Baghdad (under Saddam) are all fairly secular and modern in the grand scheme of things. But of course, the main point I'd like to make is that being able to dress scantily-clad is not a universal human right, it's actually a freedom which is specific to European-societies, and as such shouldn't be used to judge other societies. After all, in Cairo or Damascus women aren't forced to wear hijab, and in Baghdad that's only changed since the US invasion. I've yet to notice my or anyone else's Charter Rights being curtailed because of immigration to Toronto. Maybe you have some examples that I'm not aware of? The thing is, because Muslims are much more discriminated against, alienated, and economically disenfranchized in Europe and Australia, the social problems that affect the community are bigger as a result. That means things like violent crime are higher in youth there than youth here in Canada. In fact, whereas Muslim youth are overrepresented in violent crime in France, here in Canada they're underrepresented - And I believe it's because the Muslim community is better integrated here than in France. It's less to do with this notion that say, Lebanese culture is more sexist than say, Indian culture, or Chinese culture. They're all pretty much the same in that regard, but we see how drastically the attitudes shift towards equality the longer the community has been in Canada - we see the difference in attitudes between the immigrant parents and the born-in-Canada-Canadian-kids. You should stop comparing Muslim communities in Europe to here - it's a totally different ball game. Well, you need to realize that people have been immigrating to Toronto a lot longer than they've been immigrating to Ottawa. This means that there are much, much more 1st and 2nd generation Canadians within each ethnic community, so the communities are more integrated into general society. This also means that for Anglo-Canadians, they have had more time to learn how to live with difference - most young adults have had parents who have had at least some exposure already. Multiculturalism here is already several generations old. We've already went through the growing pains and figured out solutions to problems. Whereas in Ottawa (correct me if I'm wrong) the majority of non-white immigrants began arriving in the late 80's / early 90's. Once the communities in Ottawa have stayed longer, and they have kids which have grown up in Canada, they'll start to become more integrated - and once Anglo-Canadian kids have a chance to mix with their kids at school, they'll grow up and help influence the Anglo community to become more accepting. The thing is, I only turn away folks who are confrontationally anti-semitic. If didn't hang out with people who had SOME anti-semitic views, than I would turn away nearly everyone, Muslim or Christian. Because most goi's usually have at least some anti-semitic views. And they can be obvious and aggressive, or well-intentioned and paternal. Besides all the hype, I haven't found Muslims to be any more anti-semitic in general than any other group - and I know that will cause many white goiyims to throw up their arms in shock, because of course "how can I be anti-semitic!? I love the Jews!" but it's the truth. The thing is, most people confuse anti-semitism from Muslims with them just being anti-zionist, and the two aren't automatically connected. You can be both, or one or the other.

You do you realize that Toronto is around the Canadian average for per-capita crime, right? Than why do Edmonton, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg have among the highest murder rates per-person in Canada? Not exactly major centres for immigration. And I would suggest that "native Canadians" are part of the problem in a different matter - when such folks endorse policies that marginalize people, or behave within society in a way that marginalizes people, they contribute to the social and economic alienation of folks from different communities, and as we all know - the more alienated you are, the more subceptable you are to a host of social problems. Either show me an example of this or admit you're just making things up.

I don't think that's accurate. For sure, some immigrants aren't familiar with the values embodied in our Charter simply because they came from countries ruled by authoritarian regimes - that isn't exactly their fault. And usually, you can see a rapid progression in how these communities deal with things like Charter Rights if you look at the views of the parents who immigrated, and their Canadian kids - it really is like night and day in most cases - from partial integration to practically full integration within a generation - two at most. For others from countries with a democratic tradition, it may be that freedom of speech takes a different form in their country - after all, each definition is specific to the country where it comes from (ie - Canadian freedom of speech vs American). Also, I'd like to say that there are many Canadians whose families have been here for 200 years or so who seem to have just as poor an understanding of certain Charter rights - the difference being the rights in question have to do more with the freedom of religious and cultural expression. A good half of my close friends are women, and I've played the part of the "saver" in clubs before, where they'll come to me if there's a guy who won't stop harassing them and take no for an answer. Unless Muslims in Ottawa are radically different than Muslims in Toronto, your claim that Muslim men are in general terrible towards all women, and the worst offenders in terms of harassing women in clubs, just doesn't stack up against my experiences AT ALL. If the Muslim men I'm friends with and are acquaintances with (for many years) did in fact IN GENERAL hold racist views, than you're right they wouldn't be blunt about it - but generally you can't hide those views for too long before they expose themselves in subtle ways - this goes for any type of bigot, Muslim, Christian or otherwise. You also find that theme among bigoted white men, black men, etc - it's a theme found among bigots.

I've grown up my whole life with Muslims as my best friends. I'm considered part of the extended family of one family and now have people in my extended family who are Muslim. I've studied Islam, I've been to mosque - all this while not hiding the fact that I'm Jewish. You speak to Muslims "on occasions" - I exchange knowledge with Muslims every other day. You don't want to play this game with me - we both know you don't really have any real-world knowledge about this subject - so do what any wise person would do and LISTEN if you don't have the proper knowledge to speak, or - ask a question. Otherwise you're only making judgments out of ignorance.

No, because that's not integration. What you're talking about is capitulation, and I have never said I support that. What do you mean by "giving it all away?" - do you have any examples of this?

I've probably driven through that area, and might have even stopped in to pick up some Lebanese pies, do you know Aladin's? - I always drop $20 on Zatar there before driving back to Toronto. My girlfriend grew up near Pinecrest/Bayshore. I can't be sure completely though, because most of Ottawa is as non-descript as Scarborough - I can't tell the neighbourhoods apart that much. Thing is, hypocrites like this can be found in any camp. There are liberals who would like to ban any language that might put be considered racist, conservatives who would like to ban any sort of criticism during a time of conflict, etc. In fact, I've noticed that most people in general are a little hypocritical when it comes to politics. Maybe Muslim men in Ottawa are vastly different from those in Toronto I guess, because I've never known that to be the case and I've known Muslim men and women throughout my life. I only know a few Muslim folks from Ottawa, but out of those that I know I only know one guy who I'd call a dirtbag - and the ratio doesn't seem any worse than in general. It could be the environment however - when you live in a racially charged environment that is tense interaction between cultures especially between men and women are more extreme. Folks tend to act out their anger sexually as well as in other ways. This goes both ways - I know Muslim women who when white guys at the bar find out they're Muslim start asking things like "so do you know any terrorist cells" or "Is your dad going to come and kill us both if he sees us together" or "is that like, a terrorist name?" - it's pretty obvious these guys have no intention of getting these girl's numbers, and they're just saying this to act out their bigoted ideas. Those guys in the clubs could be bigots as well - they might have a stereotype in their head that white girls are easy/worthless because of it and that's why they're treating them like crap. Might have a "I hate you so much I want to do you" thing going on. It's messed up, but it happens from time to time.

"Downfall of Canadian society" - What are you talking about here? What traditions and customs are these? How aren't immigrants IN GENERAL integrating as we speak?

The Chinese government is well-aware of the consequences of their reckless use of the environment - they inhale the result of their coal-hungry energy policy every day on the commute to and from the party office. It's taken a while, but the party seems to be coming around, the change stems from mounting concern over the potential public health catastrophe that would result from the world's worst air pollution in nearly all Chinese cities becoming 2-3 times worse in the next 25 years. That and the concern that melting glaciers in the Himalayas will dry up China's rivers on which most of its population depends for drinking water and it's booming agriculture industry depends on for irrigation. It's inevitable that China will change, unlike democratization in China this is an issue where the communist party can see that the pros clearly outweigh the cons in the long term. We can speed up the process by demonstrating that new technologies and strategies work in the real world.

You do realize that, most Muslim-Canadians don't want Sharia law in Canada, right? You realize that for many that was a motivating factor that got them to leave their ancestral homeland in the first place? And you realize that while like most Canadians in general, Muslim-Canadians have criticisms of specific aspects of the Canadian government and society, most do not dislike either in general. Are you talking about Muslim males committing the majority of the total number of rapes? You sure that might not be a per-capita statistic? Link? Of course, we all know, (and "we" includes Harper, who said this much in a recent speech) that the situation in Canada is much, much different from the situation in Europe. Meaning, that I don't think this stat applies here.

QUOTE(JB Globe @ Mar 14 2008, 05:08 PM) Hey Mike, Question: Can a Muslim man marry your daughter? The Muslim community is not comparable to the KKK, sorry to break it to you. Maybe it is in your mind, but that would be JUST YOUR MIND, and your opinion is not shared by any political party, anti-discrimination organization. Hell, B'Nai Brith and the UJA couldn't disagree stronger with that comparison.

Really? And where would this be? because personally I'm not aware of any federal riding that has anything more than say 15% Muslim population. I wasn't asking about people you said hi and bye to, I was asking if you've had any meaningful relationships with anyone who is Muslim - I was asking if you know anyone whom you discuss these things with on a regular basis. Argus, this is what I mean about people not being honest with themselves about where their viewpoints come from. OF COURSE Muslim men in bars and clubs are obnoxious, crude and ignorant - do you know why? Because MOST MEN IN GENERAL that go to clubs and bars are obnoxious crude and ignorant. The only difference of course is that with say, white men, these women and yourself have plenty of personal relationships and other opportunities to interact with white men outside of a toxic environment such as a club where you can meet those from that group that aren't total scumbags. But with Muslim men, that doesn't happen - so their/your only interaction with them is with the scumbags of the group, rather than the group as a whole. This reminds me of a convo I had with an Aussie who backed up her claim that Aboriginies were terrible with her experiences on public transit in Sydney and how rude all the Aboriginies were. When I asked her if people in general were rude on public transit in Australia, because that was my experience in Toronto, she paused and conceded it wasn't the best place to judge the character of an entire community. And how many young, attractive women do you know who haven't had bad, even violent experiences with men IN GENERAL in clubs? I really don't think you're being honest with yourself about how your views on Muslim Canadians have been formed.

And what were the motivating factors in Sicily? I'm sure you're aware of the discrimination from northern Italians towards southerners, which I would call racism, because there is a physical difference between the two groups. The south has always been under-invested in by the government (many Sicilians/Calabrians feel the 2006 cancellation of the Messina Strait Bridge is reflective of this) and southerners have always faced job discrimination in the north. The Sicilian mob is deeply rooted in this dynamic - the struggle between the mob and the police actually takes on the tone of this conflict because most of the Guardia di Finanza (somewhat like the FBI) is made up of officers from the north, and the mob is of course Sicilian. To tie this back to Canada, both the Italian mafia and Islamic extremism are examples of problems within communities which are exacerbated and entrenched greatly by institutional and social discrimination. Really, the worst thing you could do if you wanted to combat Islamic extremism would be to attack the Muslim community in general, it would only entrench those already in the extremist camp, push fence-sitters towards them and make it more difficult for the moderates and liberals to work against the extremists because then the extremists could say "they're race-traitors, they're working with those who hate us and want to kick us out" A much better solution is to work with the community and remove barriers to them in society and in institutions, the same way the FBI removed bigoted officers so that Italian officers felt welcome in the FBI and could use their cultural expertise to go after the mob.

True, but that same system you talk about hurts the black community more. After all, you tend to not have compassion towards those you fear, and that might be why Torontonians don't seem to care too much when black men get gunned down on a regular basis. It also means people are less likely to care about problems faced by the black community. It also makes it harder for black men to get along in social situations when other people's first reaction is fear.

So what you're saying is, that you believe there is no such thing as cultural difference between people who happen to be Muslim, no matter if they are from Senegal, Brunei, Lebanon or Guyana? And for the record, belief isn't the same thing as fact . . .

Of course, there are plenty of Rabbis and Reverends who claim that there is no such thing as a secular Christian or Jew. Does that mean that when I say I'm a secular Jew, that I'm wrong? Or do I, and the millions of secular Jews and Muslims have just as much a right to interpret scripture as orthodox Jews and Muslims?

Of course, there are plenty of Rabbis and Reverends who claim that there is no such thing as a secular Christian or Jew. Does that mean that when I say I'm a secular Jew, that I'm wrong? Or do I, and the millions of secular Jews and Muslims have just as much a right to interpret scripture as orthodox Jews and Muslims?

Translation - Anglo-Canadian Culture. And please, show me which law states that immigrants have to adopt this culture? Because if it's just you saying they have to, than who really cares? You're not the law, and your viewpoints aren't shared by any Canadian political party, so what does it matter? And for people who are 1st or 2nd generation Canadians, this is the norm. Of course, "Canadian values" is a different ballgame from "Traditional Canadian Culture" Belief in the rule of law is mandatory, but liking hockey isn't. For example, me liking basketball more than hockey doesn't make me any less Canadian than anyone else. However, someone who despises people of different cultures is certainly less Canadian than I am. And what would those be exactly? I'll give you that. But at the same time, if you believe that any woman who does wear a chador, or hijab is oppressed even if she made the choice herself because she WANTS to, than you're not Canadian either, because you're not respecting individual expression and choice. You just couldn't keep it in, could you? One more sentence to go and you let it blurt out. Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you. This, combined with the fact that you aren't honest with yourself about what you know and don't know about people who are different from you, is the reason your opinions are what they are.

Translation - Anglo-Canadian Culture. And please, show me which law states that immigrants have to adopt this culture? Because if it's just you saying they have to, than who really cares? You're not the law, and your viewpoints aren't shared by any Canadian political party, so what does it matter? And for people who are 1st or 2nd generation Canadians, this is the norm. Of course, "Canadian values" is a different ballgame from "Traditional Canadian Culture" Belief in the rule of law is mandatory, but liking hockey isn't. For example, me liking basketball more than hockey doesn't make me any less Canadian than anyone else. However, someone who despises people of different cultures is certainly less Canadian than I am. And what would those be exactly? I'll give you that. But at the same time, if you believe that any woman who does wear a chador, or hijab is oppressed even if she made the choice herself because she WANTS to, than you're not Canadian either, because you're not respecting individual expression and choice. You just couldn't keep it in, could you? One more sentence to go and you let it blurt out. Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you. This, combined with the fact that you aren't honest with yourself about what you know and don't know about people who are different from you, is the reason your opinions are what they are.

I'm trying to figure out how much and in what form your personal contact with the Muslim Canadian community has taken.

Really? Than why do my girlfriend's family both here in Canada and in India can't seem to stop bugging us to get married? Maybe it's because you don't actually have any South Asian friends whom you can talk to and learn about the community from. Maybe it's because you're basing all of your opinions on stereotypes you've cooked up in your own head. Mike, face it - you don't know what you're talking about. Give it up, you're just making yourself look ever more ignorant with each post. All of your "facts" are observations you're making using your prejudicial views and not any actual lived or learned knowledge. That's why you say things like this: No stats, no facts, nothing - just your unsubstantiated opinion that "those people are sucking Canada dry" Wow, great work Rhodes Scholar, let me know when you give your next Massey Lecture.

That's not a personal experience Mike, try again. I mean, you're not one of those typical xenophobes who hates Muslims yet has never had an actual conversation with one about anything substantial, are you?

Hey Mike, Question: Can a Muslim man marry your daughter? Until you answer yes, you're not integrated. The hypocrisy knows no bounds here . . . You dislike Italian-Canadianss in general, but you're integrated? Sure, sure . . .

Mike, for those of us who don't have something constantly shoved up our anus, mutually joking about our respective ethnic backgrounds WITH OUR FRIENDS is funny and serves as a good way to make fun of cultural quirks that everyone has, and the supposedly insurmountable differences between our cultures. Of course, there's a difference between that and making jokes which have the purpose of humiliating or portraying someone as inferior because of their background. It's like racist jokes vs the kind of jokes that Russell Peters tells - of course, I suspect you think he's racist, right? I don't know what planet you live on, but judging from all of your stories you pull out of nowhere it can't be the Toronto I've lived in my whole life. Newmarket maybe?

Of course, Islamic extremism is something a tiny minority of Muslims adhere to. And one of the main motivating factors that cause people to go down that path is a lack of connection to society at large, motivated primarily by institutional and societal discrimination, which exacerbates the normal difficulties of integration that all immigrants face. Islam and Islamic extremism aren't the same thing, the same way the Italian community and the mob aren't the same thing. In the same way, the beginnings of the Italian mafia were borne out of frustration and discrimination - every great mob movie and book profiles this in some way - that these men felt they were denied access to the American Dream because of their ethnic and economic background. Just as the mob gave these alienated men a sense of security, pride and belonging, extremist circles within the Islamic community do the same. And although you make the point that illegal activities were something most Italians didn't engage in, the fact is that the mob considered itself the guardian of Italian values, and championed them, even if they did engage in acts which were counterproductive to the community they claimed to protect. To reiterate my point - I understand there are functional differences between the mob and Islamic extremism, but they're similar in that they're both partly motivated by reactions to discrimination both communities faced during their early years in North America, and are representative of reactionary problems most communities face, but eventually get under control while society at large opens up to them.