KrustyKidd

Try to grasp the reality here. Israel doesn't need protection from terroristis. They need protection from their own concience and world opinion if they retaliate and or allow these hate mongers to simply starve to death and or be killed in serious retaliation bombing. Israel can eliminate all their enemies within the immediate region in a single evening. What is stopping them is their respect for humanity. Formally returning land to any authority which has no history of peace negotiations is a joke Black Dog. And your fantasy of returning land to an entity that is not intent on Israels destruction is impossible as all of them do so your point is crap. One day these moderates are in charge and the next those ones are in charge. Yassar Arafat is a prime example, terrorist through and through - and, corrupt to boot. Return to him and his anti Israel supporters? Never did. You the one quibbling on that. You said Israel never returned land then went off on how land can only be returned if such and such a condition arose. Fact is, other than Egypt there was no land to return to any party that was not intent on destroying Israel as a matter of policy whether that be public or private doctrine. Only a severe leftist moron would formally return land to those who were bent on their destruction to somebody like that. Hmmm, say .... you don't suppose that if you were Israeli that you would actually .... Nah. No way. Let's see Black Dog, has Israel been attacking Egypt lately? Nope. Reason - they are at peace with a country who has recgonized their right to exist. None of the other moronic tribes has given up that pipe dream of Israeli destruction so, what have they to lose other than killing more of their enemies? A thousand years of Jewish persecution, fifty of wars against their simple right to exsist while Jordan gets off free of charge and big instability in the region not related to Israel but on the surface blamed on it for lack of reason and to bring the population together in a handy catch all. I'd say that if Israel vanished overnight you would see a lot of Arabs going to war with one another for lack of a common enemy to unite their people. So, instability? Yep. Nothing new and not going away soon so what repercussions? Survival is what it is and having assholes taking pot shots at your women and children as a matter of left wing policy is a thing of the past. Hezbollah, with no hope of defeating Israel or threatening their existance gathers missiles galore to do one thing - hurt and harm, not destroy Israel. Why? To become a power for one reason - just to be in power. Think about that one Black Dog, they are no fools, they know their limitations and, step on their people to stay in power while Israel stuggles for survival and you, fall in lick step with the propagandists. True free thinker for sure. I am saying that Israel is pretty much hated anyhow by the applicable parties and that eliminating enemies as they pop heads up Whackamole style without reservations is more effective than allowing them to arm continually for the inevitable. In other words, there has been absolutely no peace overtures from Hezbollah - ever. Hence there is nothing to be gained for Israel for not killing them and those who hide, remain silent while allowing this activity, support, agree or whatever. Sure, innocent people will be killed, but when taking this from and Israeli perspective - too bad and so sad. Better their innocents than ours. When people get the message that they will see thier children dead if Hezbollah sets up, then they may decide not to support them. If they do not, then more Hezbollah supporters will come forth and also be taken out. If Hezbollah decides to make peace, Israel will stop. If Israel stops, then Hezbollah will continue.

Well basically, the support or non support is meaningless to Israel then. Got it long time ago. If they are powerless to opppose Hezbollah then they are definitely powerless to give Israel a downside while they eliminate Hezbollah positions. That rationale is probably a god part of Israle's targeting strategy as they target Hezbollah in "areas where it had the most support and where it could intimidate those who might oppose its operations." Pretty much the places where they had nothing to lose anyhow. We have both concured that Hezbollah is more a pain in the ass rather than a critical threat and that any support by the Lebanese people is irrelevent so, the danger is also miniscular with the support of people who have no say in the matter. Hence from an Israeli standpoint there is nothing to lose and only Hezbollah losses to gain. If they are not taking them out, they would be rearming for the inevitable future. You will note of of course that throughout the peace talks, land returned or given up or discarded or pretty much reclaimed or whatever wierd way you put things when they are aquired by people who demand they get it back and don't give a hoot how they get it (like if the Jews being pushed into the sea would be reguarded by you as 'being returned' rather than surrendured is a joke.) Hezbollah has still aquired weapons that have absolutely no offensive value other than to simply hurt. They cannot drive out entrenched forces, they cannot occupy land, they cannot mount an offensive - in short, they can only terrorize and so, their whole existance is just that. Semantics. They gave up land and the Palestinians reoccupied it. KK Black Dog They do have a lot to lose. Their focus is on their own people and safety rather than how Lebanese society takes care of cancerous terrorist organizations. If Lebannon cannot deal with curtailing Hezbollah from targeting them then too bad, they will do it themselves with a heavy hand. The repercussions are minimal as you have stated there is no love lost towards Israel anyhow that makes a difference and Hezbollah has or will take what they need so, who cares? Yes, very weak. Taking the entire south of Lebannon and then, having to have a UN force come in to stop them from moving further north which they will if Hezbollah continues from that area. Safer? Once again I recite Black Dog's fucked up policies on Israeli defense and foreign affairs. Sacrifice the random man woman or child to terrorists rather than confront the inevitable using forces they have to keep the tide of hatred down to an acceptable level. A tide on a sea that is commited to their destruction if given the opportunity. I'm talking about making it leak proof. Walls, nukes, modern army and no qualms about taking out those who attack it. The region has already been unstable for over a century and, will continue to be as long as there are medieval supporters to every Jew hating Arab clan so, you will have lots to write about for the next few decades.

That attack was intended to garner a response rather than kill people as an end result. The response was hoped to bring about a unification of Muslims against a western threat. The end result was that unification. The terrorist activities around the world are designed to unbalance weak governments by proving them defenceless aginst their power. Then, a group with Islamic and conservative Sunni values can take over and recreate the Caliphate. Once together they can then concentrate on the rest of the world. There is no war against the west at the moment nor is there likely to be one within the next twenty years. Anything you see in the west is designed to get a backlash that will strengthen their position. A position that is threatened by democracy in Arab and Islamic countries such as Iraq. Hence the energy expended there by Islamists.

Exactly. Yes, and, they could also be fired via catapult for a net range of fifty meters. Yes, fired one at a time from the same site or, multiple. None are using improvised tubes although one could, with a severe degredation in accuracy and safety to the firer. The first truck mpounted make more effective vollies possible. Experts and analysts generally put the Hezbollah rocket force somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000 missiles.[3] The heart of this arsenal remains rooted in Hezbollah's massive stocks perhaps 7,000 to 8,000 of 107mm and 122mm Katyusha rockets, virtually all of which were supplied directly from existing Iranian army stocks. And they have just as many launchers or do you have a number of some sort that makes destroying them irrelevent as they will simply use empty rolls of toilet paper duct taped together? And what is the response time for the Israelis? KK You don't vote for them or give them support. You, contrary to your opinion that Hezbollah is so so so popular in Lebannon are saying that they are merely a gang that intimidates people into letting them set up shop wherever they please. Make up your mind, are the people for or against Hezbollah? If for, no loss, if against, then they have a strange way of showing it. In either case, if you were Lebanese and Hezbollah set up in your neighborhood, would you merely allow them without saying your protests? If so, then why are you blaming Israel? Myself, I'd either let them know I didn't want them there or I'd get out quick. Well, if most support them in any way, no loss for Israel. They are used to being hated and attacked so, more, or more frequent is inevitable. At least here, they are taking out launchers and, supporters. If they are making more supporters, wel, not much difference between being hated by two hundred million people as there is two hundred and three million. Seems? Bombing people whom you say support an organization that wishes to kill Israelis purposefully then once again no loss. As for the long term, Israel could not do anything to remove the political anti Israel sentiment from the ME so recruit all they want. Once again, two hundred million and now ..... two hundred three or whatever. Good. So then, Israel does return land. And, returned the Gaza on shedule as per their agreement. Black Dog Nope. From my experience with you, you always blame Israel, even when they are returning land. Here, you try to find a down side for them when in reality, they are hated by all Arab people of the ME and have nothing to lose politically or on the ground. Killing Hezbollah is good for them. Taking out launchers is also good. Providing a known reaction to an action is good as well, even if it gives Hezbollah political traction. Israel knows it will never make friends so, it may as well make their enemies shit scared of attacking them. If Lebanese people wish to be enemies then keep supporting Hezbollah, Israel can deal with it in any layer of military response necessary. As for world opinon, once again, they have friends and foes as they always have. If you are debating just to debate without a point worth defending or persecuting then please don't waste my time. If it is worth it then you will win, lose or find a compromise. My arguments don't crumble as I only pick the ones that I know I can defend and push a long way at the very least. A crumbling argument is one which you have put forth. Assigning blame to Israel on everything while letting all other sides go scott free is a patent history of yours going back years on this board and is a mind set rather than reality.

Meaning that if they do not give everything they have, they will lose the propaganda victory which is the entire point of their show of force. For as you know, they do not pose a threat to the existance of Israel so, they are firing off the rockets simply to maintain relevence in their world. The other options are to surrender or to allow Israel to root them out. In order to pretend they are in power they have to use up everything they have to prove any claims of them losing resources wrong. Do you reazlly think they can lose rocket launchers and fire two hundred a day for a year? Whatever. You have focused on the Katyusha and said the multiple rockets could be fired with a simple pipe and a car battery. I assume you meant that the multiple rockets using simple pipes would have targeting capability and a safety factor that provided it didn't kill more Arabs than Jews (providing it even got to Israel) There are two hundred fired a day and not all from different sites so, we are talking multiple rocket launchers. If not, then what are they? Now, not all rockets are Katyushas but you focused exclusively on them scince this thread began so it is strange that suddenly you are switching weaponry at this point when your points are being thrashed. Black Dog and .... Whatever. Support in the form of passiveness is no problem but, you have assigned it more import. Black Dog Clarify this support please. Is it meaningful in that they are aiding Hezbollah or just quiet prayers and such? If the former then they are enemies of Israel as well, if the latter then it's of no consequence to Israel so, who cares? Allow me to explain you were wrong about as I pointed out the Sinai and now, you are trying to waffle by saying that the Gaza was not returned as the Israelis did not actually give the land formally to an authority rather gave it up to the Palestinians to do whatever they wished with it. Who is living there now? Maybe the next time you can make yourself a middle eastern consultant to make sure world peace is done your way and save yourself the smug small words when you lose an argument.

If of course. Just him or the entire Knesset who make the decisions? Wrong. They have one way to fight and this is it. They either give up, fade into irrelevency or give it all they got. Ya right. It's a multiple rocket launcher, not a pipe and a battery with no targeting ability. Doesn't like like a piece of PVC pipe and an eveready to me. Nope. I said that if they allow Hezbollah to set up in their nieghborhood then they can be sure that there will be bombs falling on them shortly afterwards. You said that one of the biggest problems was that Israel was making Hezbollah very popular with Lebanese. Then I said something like 'so what?' Israel has been at war with the middle east for so long that they really don't give a shit who feels what and so on and forth and that if they support Hezbollah by allowing them to set up then no great loss anyhow from an Israeli perspective. Then you said that the support is nothing meaningful anyhow which made me wonder why you overstated it in the first place. Well the Palestinians loved it. But they are but children to you, unable to do anything for themselves and in need of a leftist government to rule them I suppose.

Really? Then why not do what Hezbollah does and claim complete victory? I take it that you have more reliable sources on the ground so let's have it. Then what the hell was all the crap you were going on about how the sky is falling now that Israel is driving Lebanese to support Hezbollah when now you mean that it actually means squat? No offence Black Dog but obviously this is a left wing view of reality. Not only is Israel supposed to stop people from killing them but also, fix all their problems and set up a gopverrnment for them. Much like the US is doing in Iraq. I think you are probably against such actions and would instantly call them imperialist and such. To be realistic about it, if the Israelis were to pull out in stages and setting up interim governments, they would be blamed for stalling, undermining PA authority and interfering in Palestinian affairs. And, taking terrorist hits for this as well. So, just leaving is the best strategy for them, and, the safest. OOOOO the horid support for Hezbollah which you say means nothing. Regional instability in a region that has for over fifty years been unstable and intent on killing Israelis. What clap trap.

Hizbullah's launch capability seriously curtailed Or, as you have said over and over aginan as they have support there, not provide that support. Yes. From what I understand, Assad and Olmert talk all the time. They would be sure to comply in order to keep relations as friendly as they have been over the years. Gee, now they are going to set up something in Lebannon and this also makes you angry. Dammed if they do........ Momentum and destruction of Hezbollahs rockets. See above.

One of the objectives was to capture OBL. The main reason was to destroy or curtail Al Qeda effectiveness and entrenchment in Afganistan which happened. The guys in caves did not have box cutters but were trained and armed with military weapons. The US as I said could kill him however, would need to also take out a lot of men women and children in order to do it as he is firmly hidden by loyal tribesmen. As for him being supported by the US during the Soviet occupation, we also supported the Soviets during WWII. Then after, we were enemies. Changing directions is hardly new. Keeping the same when former allies become a threat is idiocy. The transactions were all minicular and designed to go under the radar which is why they neded lots of people. A single or couple of large transactions most certainly would have alerted the intelligence agencies. I answered the OBL point above. Al Qeda Timeline This is fairly complicated and involves a lot of travel, back tracking and meetings. Hardly the simple affair you make it out to be. Rather detailed and long, it does provide a more complex view into the care and planning taken to get the simple morons with exacto knives onto a plane. You could easily do what you say, but who is going to check to make sure this is all to plan when most of the English speaking operatives are known to intelligence agencies? The same person going from one country to another would be followed hence, you ned to have different people doing the same task at different times. Your communications are monitored so you need to have couriers delivering cell phones and new web addresses. You cannot do this easily from a cave in Afganistan and, not only that but, the integrity of the motivation of the operatives is always at risk as they are not directly under your watch, hence, the need for known clerics to check on them and remotivate when necessary. A year and a half is a long time to be under cover and in the midst of western society. As well, one weak point in all this could give the plot away, a plot that they have invested considerable time, money and effort into. You seem to think that having operatives and support teams running undetected or below the radar of the best intelligence agencies in the world for over a year and a half is no feat. All as you said not knowing what each other knows. Then get them home and back during this period to remotivate them without raising any red flags.

A large and complex support team for sure. To get five guys rehearsed and onto a plane as well as knowing what they are doing. They were in country for over a year and a half and, to prevent them from doubting their missions, they had to have visits every now and then from a cleric (who was on a wanted list) to keep them motivated as well as be flown home so they wouldn't become westernized. Remember, a well placed penny bullet takes a lot of money to get to the battlefeild with support from administration, traiining, money, politicians, taxpayers, distribution, cooks, pilots, big airplanes, ships etc. To simplify it to say they were 'idiot's is to discount the actual threat Al Qeda poses. And, all this was done without the teams knowing of each other's existance until the end. That is the point, the money (which is estimated to be between two and five hundred thousand) had to be sent in amounts of of huindreds to avoid alerting anybody and be untraceable. That's a lot of undetected trips to the quickiemart by a lot of different people.

From what I understood from the article they were talking about defeating the Taliban, not erroding them over years. And, in four months they would know if they were beating them over the short term. It said nothing of losing against the Taliban or pulling out.

They are though. Not at the rate we would all wish but they do take out rocket sites and devices along with occupying and denying Hezbollah area to operate in. I don't really think Israel gives a hoot about public opinon as they isolated in a sea of hatred anyhow so public opinion of the Lebanese is moot. What the average Lebanese is supposed to do? Make dam sure Hezbollah doesn't try to set up in your neighborhood as you can be sure an Israeli bomb will be falling shortly. Nope. I believe this a better course than watching your people get picked off pell mell over years rather than confronting the enemy. I ask you the same question. We all know Hezbollah desires to kill the Jews of Israel and will over time effect what they can if not taken care of now so what has changed in their doctrine to make you feel they wish peace at all costs? OK, then you are pissed that Israel is not running Palestinian affairs. Strange as you were pissed that they were occupying Arab land and now are pissed at Israel rather than Palestinians for not having the ability to run themselves. So in your opinion, Arabs are incapable of governing? You do what you can or you don't. Joking right? One of their prime directives is to destroy Israel, not seek co-existance. There is only one compromise for Hezbollah, destruction of Israel, one point that I doubt Israel could be expected to compromise on. On the other hand, Israel seeks the disarming of Hezbollah, one point that we are sure they would not agree to without the destruction of either Israel or themselves. Yes. Good ol' boys building schools and hospitals like the US in Iraq. Try to take their guns or pull away and you'll find they are reliant on public support like the Nazi party. As for talking to their sponsors, I'm sure the Israelis ambassadors in Damascus and Ridyah have that agenda at the top of thier list as do their Arab counterparts in Jerusalem.

In order to do so you would have to kill an awful lot of people in villages to get to him. Torture some loyal supporters who have family to lose and such in order to get the info and generally invade a country and stir up a hornets nest. In all, probably have to kill about two thousand people, create another front and lose an ally. OBL isn't worth that. Not really. The military aspect is to change the conditions which allow terrorist to have appeal. When people have nothing to lose they are easier to recruit. If they have more on earth, they look less to heaven. Al Queda and terrorists know that and is the main reason why they don't wish to see Iraq become a success. If they thought the US was wrong by invading Iraq they would have just let them stay there in peace and watch things work out for the Iraqis. Intelligence and military action is importent. Just as finance and rebuilding is. 911 required over a hundred and possibly up to three hundred. Those guys lived here and required safe houses and covers, money in huge amounts that had to be sent in smal amounts to non descript stores and Western Union counters and then reconstituted into tens of thousands, had to be visited by clerecs, even had to be flown home at certain points. Internet and communications had to be supplied as well as transport. Rehearsals, tickets, flight and travel arrangements along with liasons with the other teams whom they knew noting about. It required a complex and large support team(s) to pull off. All under the watch of US intelligence. That was the main feat of 911 was how they did all this without being detected.

If all the kids in the playground hate me already and I'm taking hits everywhere, I really don't give a shit as I have little to lose. Especially with a loaded 45 in my back pocket. I want the bully's ass no matter what it takes and, if you're hiding him, helping him, coluding with him. Not my problem as we're ending this right now and, I'm not the one who is going down.

The question might be 'what is more importent, allowing Hezbollah to set up in your neighborhood then watching it be anhialated by Israel or not letting them set up.at all' To Israel it matters little just that they are destroying Hezbollah rather than just let them have free uninhibited reign. Israel is hated and isolated about as much as a nation can be hated by it's neighbors. It's as worse as it gets for them. Next is elimination of their enemies via more effective weapons. Egypt had it's shit together. Palistine did not. Hardly a problem of Israel's making. Not really. When somody is a threat and you have the means, you eliminate the threat if possible. Palestinians would have had a kniption if Israel enforced conditions so what the heck is your problem with letting people govern themselves? You should be wearing an anti Israel sandwichboard at a Hezbollah rocket site that just fired. Yes. Sacrificeing children to the peace God. Vigorous diplomacy with people who don't talk and are commited to destroying you without conditions and sacrifice their children to do this. "Everything I Needed To Know I Got From Randy Rhodes"

Hmmm. So nobody minds Hezbollah moving into their nieghborhood to fire off a few rockets? Well, if they are giving their permission then they are in colusion. If they are being forced then your theory of cohesion is bull. Nobody in SA wanted to confront Al Qeda either until there was a price to pay. Then they did. Your little proverb, if applicable, gives Israel all the reasons they need to continue the attack and, even escalate it. No. They simply had citiszens randomly killed, kidnapped and terrorized by thugs. What fucked up logic makes that an acceptable way of life in your mind that shouldn't be confronted? Possibly you find it not worth confronting people who kill randomely the citizens of your country rather than deal with them and make their existance difficult and dangerous. Sinai. I was there when it was returned. Of course they don't. If they did then Lebannon would be a bloody glass parking lot. They are a pain in the ass and, kill innocent people. When people do that, those and those who give permission and support are eliminated as threats by any means possible. A serial killer does not have to threaten the very existance of Canada to have the law after him or her. And, if he or she barracades themselves up somewhere then there will lots of force used to take them out. Yep. Kidnapping, suicide bombings, rockets, tunneling into Israel etc. I blame Israel for withdrawing unilaterally Bully comes to your kid each day and slaps him around and steals his lunch money. Better not confront him to possibly stop the problem, you may get punched. Wow. A foreign and defense policy based on sacrificing your women, children and citizens. What political school did you learn that one at?

So then is could be surmised by many that israel is targeting those who harbor terrorists. No loss there. Huh? What were those rockets stockpiled for? Israel has always been in danger, this is merely confronting the inevitable. Oh no, not a bit. Those stockpiled rockets were for friendly usage. Those kidnapped people were merely muppets and, the continual terrorism against Israeli citizens didn't challenge the government a bit. Acceptable? Why yes, if having your citizens targeted continually by terrorists is in any way considered a normal way of life. Your political solution I don't believe has ever been considered by anybody other than Israeli people. For example, land returened used to launch attacks from etc.

Lebanon will quickly realize that having Hezbollah around is a liability and possibly root them out themselves. Your solutions to Israel's problem of protecting it's citizens (which is the prime responsibility of every government) have been nil so, your proposals at protecting israelis who are targeted are far less effective than any action Israel has taken so far instead citing how this does no good but, have no solution which will stop terrorist actions againt them. Isreal is not liked by many nations and certainly not many Arab nations and therefore has nothing to lose by pushing back Hezbollah, making a buffer zone out of southern Lebanon and so on.

I think Israel knows that. They can only be hated by Arabs so much before it really doesn't matter anymore and as for the rest of the world, when your people are getting kiled by terrorist rockets, who gives a shit what France or whomevber thinks? That point was reached somewhere in the seventies I think. Vying for friendship at the expense of your own people's lives is a joke. The prime responsibility of a government is to protect the lives of it's citizens from outsdide forces. Failing that, the government is ripe for a colapse. hence the methods of Al Queda on weak repressive regimes - to divide the government and the peo-ple, to display to the people the ineffectualness of their government. To me, my family's life is worth more than yours, my daughter's life more valuable than your wife's and so on. There is nothing irresponsible about taking action to protect your people in whatever way is needed, in fact, it would be criminal NOT to take whatever action necessary and beyond to make 100% sure your people were safe. Otherwise, you don't deserve to be in government. As we have seen, land returned is not taken as a peace initiative but rather to place new firing positions. Rockets fired from populated areas when they could be done from more remote areas is irresponsible on the part of Hezbolla when they know the reaction Isreal takes. in short, they are the ones responsible for the collateral damage.

Better tell that to the people of New York City and the entire town I come from in Canada. We have five factories that are US arms and truck to and from so many cities that I can't begin to list. There are loads going back to here to just as many cities and small towns to list as well. You must be going through a dry spell where your at. There are not enough trucks to cart the shit made in both our countries. I say that it goes for the rest of the world as there are so may loads going to the port in Mortreal that we have to sub the stuff as well. Good thing because there aren't enough people to fill the postions to make the shit in demand. Matter of fact, send me a PM and I'll get you a job making $1500 a week as the village idiot if you can endure hard hours. Work. Get an Alberta welfare benifit. Called an alarm clock. They pay you - you show up to work. If there is something heinious in that, would love to hear it. I suppose in your wierd world the people with nothing invested get everything while those withtheir life savings, time and work get nothing. Insert incredulous insulting comment. Send me PM as above and I will show you where to go for far more than hometown comfy wages made by teenage kids. This is private enterprise One third of Alberta is from the maritimes. And there is lots of room still. Nobody is worried about French people here Now I get it, a job is the last resort to you. Wow. .

Whatever, I got laid, drunk and relaxed. You sat there brewing on separation issues and the anal CBC crap. We have 364 days left to go over that and, I plan on adressing each issue ten times every one of those days. Happy Canada Day!

Pretty minor stuff for the most part. Any president has a gazillion of those I'm sure. I'm against many of them and approve of some but, for the most part, think he did the right thing on the bigger ones like Afganistan and Iraq. His handling of NK and Iran is pretty good as well. Most people would have not done a thing or, simply thrown a few cruises at Afganistan and called it an operation. Ignoring the force that Conservative Wahabbism and attraction has to unify disatified Islamic people and hid from the inevitable confrontation like the House of Saud did for decades. Good for him, us and, very bad for the Conserative Islamists. I often wonder if any other president would have had the guts to attempt such a project, one that would have almost certainly led to his not being re elected and, possibly going down in history as a failure. Abe Lincoln did worse and is remembered as one of the best presidents. Engaging the country into a war that need not have been, kiling over a million US people. So, to put him down for being against gay marriage and upholding the main religion his country was founded on is pretty minor compared to what is really going on.

Yep. Gitmo. Start a thread is you wish. This one here is about an event in Iraq that the US is invstigating and is going public with what they hae found so far.

Bad news for sure. Good that the US takes these things seriously.

We can discuss that once we get over this hurdle. Liam said and I then said that any system where the prisoners do not get their heads sawed off is better than one that does. I never said, inferred or stated that it was a great sytem, honest, infallable or anything like that. Only that it was better and also morally superior. You now are going on to bring the US to a villainous level while not even adressing the fact that it is morally superior to the system the so called insurgents and terrorist use which is the point (and only point I am adressing right at this moment). If you wish to move on and state how it is fallable and wrong then please, just state that it is morally superior to that system used by the foes of the US. Then, we can both agree or dissagree on how screwed up the system is and how it may be fixed or whatever.