Canuckistani

Poor people also get old, and it's a lot harder on them. They also lose friends etc. "I've been rich and I've bee poor, and rich is better." Attributed to various people, including Sophie Tucker.

I think we know what they mean. Creating and maintaining them is another matter.

I don't have time to think about this. Except to say at the moment, big money seems to be able to have huge sway on elections, especially in the US, which in turn influences us. People voting against their economic interests because their patriotic and socially conservative buttons are being pushed. Can't really say what will happen in the future.

I'm not sure I agree. But I'm actually more concerned about how money can buy the government. Maybe it's always been that way, but if we look at outcomes, at one time the govt seemed to care more about the average person. And I'm concerned about how robocalling seems to be a new low in election dirty tricks (or a new new low, since apparently they were quite dirty in times gone by as well) with not much the CPC has to worry about being caught. Look at the in and out scandal. The CPC paid a fine, declared victory and that's it.

I'm not a prostitute because my market value is too low to make it worthwhile. At one time I was willing to sell my soul for a Fiat Spyder, but even then I realized nobody seemed to be buying even at that small price. I don't deal drugs because it's illegal and I think I'd be caught. I also think I'd be chewed up and spit out by the criminals. Since I think drugs should be legalized, I would also be undercutting my own financial position. I don't know what I'd do if offered a million dollars to facilitate the distribution of say crystal meth, with no chance of being caught. I like to think I'm moral enough to say no, but I don't really know, and will never find out.

http://isrcl.org/Papers/Cohen.pdf

Patriot Act. Detention without trial. We also seem to be skirting on the edges of those things in Canada.

Something does need to be done - otherwise we'll just have even more conflict between west and east. The report itself recommended using some of the tax revenue brought in by resource exports be used to support manufacturing by building infrastructure and other means. I think we need a national energy and industrial strategy in this country so that we don't get Dutch disease but Norway health. They seem to be doing it right.

And that point doesn't acknowledge regress. I think we've already seen some in the US and Canada with regards to using terrorism as a reason to restrain liberties. And, with the US Supreme court's Citzen's United decision, and ever increasing economic disparity (money = power), I wouldn't say it' clear that we are necessarily moving forward.

You'll likely get a new boss, same as the old boss.

That's 30% of job losses across the country. The percentage is higher in Ontario. Natural resources contribute to raising the dollar, not bringing it down.

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." I can't talk about absolutes of economic equality. I think there's a mushy middle there, where too little causes social disruption (like now) too much stifles initiative. We need to harness both greed and "communalism" to build the best society we can. That's where IMO both Marxism and Objectivism fail.

I don't think we'll ever have real transparency. It begins during the campaign, when we expect candidates to lie to us. We won't elect somebody that says anything near the truth. Look at what happened to Joe Clark, and who we got in instead. And once in power, the govt is going to hang on to as much info as it can, and the mechanisms to make them reveal it are weak. Doubt that will ever change.

On my bad days I agree with you. We certainly have way too many people on this planet that if anything seriously disrupts our energy driven economies, there's going to be a mass die off. Maybe a revolution before then. I hope we can use our intelligence to prevent that.

Going down from revolution, or from exceeding the carrying capacity of the earth?

I knew you'd get me on that one. Of course the middle class is a recent invention. A good one I think is worth keeping. Good wages means that the majority of people earn close to the median wage, and it is hoped, that median wage is sufficient for the lifestyle that allows good quality housing and nutrition, enough money for recreation and for saving for retirement. I know these aren't hard numbers, but I think we know what I mean. I don't think we've done a good job of redirecting those economic refugees, is my point. And relying on a strictly resource based economy is a mugs game, IMO. I know manufacturing isn't a good job in the sense you say. At one time we thought we could automate it and eliminate people doing those jobs. But that only works if you spread the benefits of automation around, don't just leave them for the bosses. In retrospect, for a lot of people, the boredom of the assembly line looks a lot better than the boredom of under or unemployment.

No, I understand the term. When you said the former is likely, that would be the dead cat bounce in your list - or did you mean revolution?

Interesting. I had this idea years ago, not just govt transparency, but for everybody. If everybody has no secrets, then nobody has power from those secrets. Will never happen, either your idea or mine. Knowledge is power, and somebody will always seek to hold that power for themselves. Who will enforce this transparency and honesty? And, another piece missing is we need a populace that's well enough educated to understand all this information - I doubt that's true even for the well educated people on this forum. Take the F-35. How many people have the expertise to judge the merits of that case. (Tho I do agree the govt should quit lying about the true cost.)

Dead cat bounce?

It's a trend with any govt. They get old, pile up the missteps and finally are pushed out. And it's a function of the electorate not being able to handle the truth. We're always falling for somebody who promises something for nothing. Lower taxes without loss of govt services we all want. Business choking policies without job losses. etc.

I'm not an economist. But it seems to me there's never been anything like manufacturing to employ large numbers of people at semi-skilled or medium skilled occupations getting good wages. Ie lifting people into the middle class. I don't think there are enough positions for home renovators or massage therapists to take up the slack - they need to be employed by people making decent coin, and if we just have a small elite doing that, there just isn't sufficient demand for their services. That's what wrong with trickle down theory. The rich can only spend so much, what really moves an economy is a large group in the middle having decent disposable income. Or so I'm told. Don't know how long term the problem is, but it seems to have been going on for quite some time without abating. And what alternatives are there to manufacturing is my question too. I'm going to post this video that I saw on another forum. I didn't post it there, so presumably I'm not cross posting. If this is a problem, lmk and i'll edit it out. His contention is that decreasing taxes on the rich does not boost job creation. That as the tax rate has gone down, unemployment has gone up. And if median income in the US had kept pace with economic growth, it would be 92,000 now instead of 50,000. "If lowering taxes on the rich created jobs, we'd be drowning in jobs." "What creates jobs is a feedback loop between consumers and business." (If consumers don't have money, they can't spend. Henry Ford figured that one out.)

I am new here. I think I saw reference to that Canuckistan too, and thought oh, oh. But, the name just popped into my head. Hope I don't get held to Canuckistan's povs. I didn't see a place here for introductions, or I would have done so. Might be a good section to add.

Are we really helpless to see our manufacturing and hence our middle class get gutted out? Is it inevitable, or are there things we could be doing? Germany seems to have done well keeping it's manufacturing base, but then they always had a very solid one to begin with. But they do seem to have taken steps to keep it going as well as can be after the crash. Could we learn from them? Are there alternatives to manufacturing industries that can employ a lot of people at decent wages without requiring very high technical skills? I think Canada could certainly do much better in the training it provides to people, like Germany does. And the suggestion has been made to take the extra tax revenue from resource exports to infrastructure and other supports to manufacturing. What can we do to prevent the splitting of society into a 20% elite and the rest continuing to lose ground?

Nope it won't happen. Depending on what you mean by equality it's certainly worth striving for. True equality under the law, for instance. Are you equal under the law when one person can afford a top lawyer and another can't?

You make some very interesting points. But to say people whine (for no good reason presumably) but govt services are behind the times seems contradictory. I think people whine because they know things are going downhill for most of them, whether in relative or absolute terms.