sami

This is not an issue of whose religion is practiced by a majority of our population. I don't understand why you continue to make that an issue. I simply believe that a Canadian citizen who is a contributing member of society should be seen as equal regardless of religion or lack there of. Not accommodating something as personal as their beliefs, lifestyle or culture so long as it does not infringe on the rights, culture, beliefs or lifestyle of other Canadians will create a caste system in this country. As some European counties have proven, this is not in the spirit of a true democracy, which treats all its citizens as equally. I don’t understand why assume some has to be crazy or a religious activist to believe this.

It is funny that I have that exact same assessment of you.

I found this to be a nice story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4861666.stm Pakistan can some times look like an enigma. Sometimes accused of vast women's rights violations it is still the only Muslim country to ever have a women prime minister and that twice ( am I correct?) and Pakistani women continue to push themselves into male dominationed roles. Good for them.

You can use that flawed argument to single out any group. There is more of chance that your child will be exposed to Tamil extremism or Sikh extremism which is way more prevalent in this country then Islamic extremism. Black youths are more likely to commit crimes then any other group so it is better to avoid them too. Sounds reasonable, but it is STILL bigotry. My advice to you is to stop watching CNN and Fox News, it seems that fear is paralyzing your judgment. You may think that Islam is a bunch of blood thirsty murders. But that’s your uninformed opinion and I really could care less. The school boards and legislators WILL make the right decision because this is Canada and our tolerance and freedoms defines us both nationally and internationally. This is why we one of the more respected countries in the world. You have a right to your opinions and I have a right to make you accountable for them.

Everyone forgot about tibet? taiwan? Anyways, personal opinion. This is rookie move. If you wanted to pull aid, Harper should have waited for Hamas to make the first move. If Hama's comes out and renounces violence and reconizes Isreal, Canada would have jumped the gun. If Hama's decides to take up arms then Canada can pull its aid with legitimate cause.

Thank God. I wouldn't want my children exposed to potential bigots.

These issues are very complex and layered and unfortunately I feel I may not be covering everything in my responses. I am not sitting here put blaming the west of the all the faults of Muslim countries, many of these countries have created their own problems. What I am saying is we haven’t helped either. Coming from Pakistani background, a country which was once a secular nation. I got to see the rise of extremism and wahabiism during the Afghan war. The US and ISI turn a blind eye to the arab fighters streaming into the country and the thousands of madressa they started building across the border. This because they knew fanatics fought well against the soviets. We trained, armed, and promoted them as ‘freedom fighters’. When the war was over the transition of Pakistan had already began. It was the worst mistake that country had ever made in its short history and they are still paying for it today. But I can’t completely blame Pakistan without stating that if the US had not decided to use Pakistan and would have fought the Soviets directly, maybe we would have not had the stream of Arab fighters coming in and maybe today Bin Laden would be some insignificant rich boy in Saudi Arabia or better yet in some Saudi prison. This just an example, I am not saying that this excuses ME countries from ownership of their problems. I don’t think any Muslim country besides Iran has any interest in pursuing war with the Israelis. And with Iran it is mostly rhetoric. Yes Dubai is fantastic. I think a UAE is a good example of what ME countries can realistically strive for. Democracy for the most part is still down the road. I doubt that UAE or Egypt’s increased army ( if true) has anything to with Isreal and more to do with terrorists.

I mean for the most part military. There is a lot of money and opportunity in the ME. Less war and more business has a way of moderating people. Also, positive US influence can help promote democracy. But again this will not happen overnight and extremism will go out kicking and screaming. You have note that western colonialism was not all that far back. Some Arabs and Indians still remember living under brutal repression for the better part of this century (Mostly British). There is still a lot of mistrust of the west and it will not simply disappear overnight. Ahh. But wait. The US did support that greedy elf of shah in Iran. Who’s reign of terror and utter greed in sucking his people dry gave rise to the Islamic revolution. The US has made bad choices in the past, maybe out of shear bad luck or ignorance of the situation in the ME. I said the west has some ownership of the issue, not all. Once again getting back to the topic of religion. I don’t understand where the notion comes from that the religion spurns the hatred when it is obvious that the hatred uses the religion to it’ own ends. The hatred is social and cultural. You will find Muslims born in the west will tend to be a lot less hateful and violent. Which make no sense if you buy into the belief that the religion is hateful. If you are taught hate you will hate regardless of where you live.

Jerry, I see you are more than willing to embrace some pretty eloborate conspirasy theories as long as they fit into your belief system - maybe I should send you a tinfoil hat. no theories here. just plain old in-the-flesh confessions. bah. P Eye has also ran such jems as the 'fake moon landing'.

Well said Sami. However, I would emphasize that cold blooded murder can never be justified in the name of god, freedom or any other cause and what the terrorists are doing is cold blooded murder. Furthermore, if the hatred directed at the US was directed at the puppet dictators in the ME, these ME dictators would fall fairly quickly (just look at what public protect accomplished in most of the former SSRs - places with no history of democracy). A big part of the 'root' causes in the ME is the culture of victimization which has infested the Islamic world for the last 500 years. 100% true. I am never justifying the terrorism. It is a virus. But like all virus you can not cure it until you fully understand it. I am looking at the cause. I partially agree with you. However, there are some important facts that must be highlighted. For one, more Muslims die from Islamic extremism then any one else. Would it be fair to say that 95% percent of all terrorist acts take place in Muslim countries and target fellow Muslims? i.e ) Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. I feel the extremist intentions are to overthrow their own governments. The US is more a target of opportunity to wane support for these governments and deflect public attention away from their true goal which is conservative Islamic rule over secular rule. As for victimization, with two Muslim countries currently under US occupation, it feeds that fear and paranoia.

What the Muslim world is trying to do, (some of which are misguided in their attempts) is defend itself from what it considers a second crusade. Muslim extremists do not want to invade the west. They want the west to leave their countries, to stop being hypocrites preaching democracy out of one mouth and supporting totalitarian states out the other. To stop helping dictatorships suppress the will of their own people just for the benefit of their western buddies. ME countries have every right to fear the west. Our policies are made only to benefit us. If it is in our interests we will buddy up with anyone regardless of if they don’t stand for our principles. This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

I am sorry guys, but your attempts to claim Muslims as violent in comparison to other elements this centuries is borderline ridiculous. You have Nazi’s killing millions of Jews, Serbs killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims, Hutu killing hundreds of thousands Tutsis and Islam is a violent religion? Sure we got our blood thirsty terrorists and some intolerance but we got long way to go before taking that most violent crown. If you want to talk in terms religion dominating foreign policy then there has been no religion more violent then Christianity in the past and even today.

She writes at length about it and how it must be revitalized. I stand corrected. Maybe we(her and I) have more in common then I thought. Accept I am not a lesbian.

Well intentioned Irshad Manji mixes legitimate concerns with radical, misinformed opinions through out her book. She was exposed to radical ultra-conservative form of Islam called Wahabiism (a Saudi based misguided form of Islam that has grown popular among many Muslim extremist.) Her experiences with this distorted view have tainted her observations. Her statement that Muslims do not know how to dissent, debate, revise or reform is laughable if you have spent any time in any number of Muslim societies, universities, or mosques. Debates between conservatives and progressives have gone on for centuries. Is She aware of what Ijtihad is? Defined by liberal Muslims who drop traditional interpretations of the Qur’an which they find have been taken too literally and do not fit within the a modern society. This form of progression has been part of Islam since the 10th century. Has she ever been to Pakistan and visted Lahore or Karachi and seen many gay couples living together openly and being quietly accepted in a soceity. Though the laws of the these countries have been shaped by extremist parties of the past. The moderates are slowly making changes. Does she know that in Turkey, Jordan, Eygpt, or Mali it is no longer against the law to be Gay? This is the progressive movement that she claims does not exist. I don’t think she understands that extremism is losing this battle whatever extremist or western hawks want to believe. The well funded Wahabhi movement has set Islam back in the later 20th century, but this cult even with it’s propaganda machine is not sustainable over the long run. A decade from now Islam extremism will be the past. One thing I do agree with Manji is this quote: "Iran provides the best hope for progressive Islam,'' I think before buying into Irshad Manji’s “Trouble with Islam” , if you truly want to learn about the liberal movement, here are two books I would recommend: Progressive Muslims: On Justice, Gender, and Pluralism by Omid Safi (a great Islamic scholar) The Unthought in Contemporary Islamic Thought, by Mohammed Arkoun. Fantastic read. Jarrod Diamond is one of the greatest minds of today.

Agreed, it does really depend on where Iran wants to take their foreign policy. I hope they take into consideration that involving themselves in Iraq's internal politics will cause instability as the problems in Iraq would leak over into Iran. And as you stated many Arab Muslim countries would not take to kindly to Iran's incusion into Iraq. If there is US withdrawl if Iraq, the west must maintain strong financial and military support for any Iraqi government. Eliminate the need for Shiite Iraqis to look to Iranian conservatives for support.

According to that logic there are no secular countries then. I see, so the tax dollars are only for the benefit of Christian tax payers? I find it interesting that our tax dollars can be use for Catholic Schools, but God forbid if any other religon wants to have something as simple as a prayer room. Then it is 'forcing our beliefs' on others?

Is there a coles note version? It is a interesting read. I do not know if you give Iraqi nationalism enough credit. There is a difference between Iraqi ‘Arab’ Shiite and Iran ‘Persian’ Shiite. I think Iraqis are already wary of Iranian influence in their country. I also feel that the majority of Iraqis are sick of war and a civil war based on sect would not be very popular. I don’t know if a democratic government will be able to sustain itself in this country, but a more moderate dictatorship which brings peace, stability and security would probably be acceptable.

What do you want me to check my facts about? What Moderate muslims think of Gays? Okay here: http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/mission.html "We oppose gender apartheid that is practiced in parts of our community, and believe it is contrary to the equity among men and women enshrined in Islam. We believe that Muslim men and women should work together, shoulder-to-shoulder, in their effort to rejuvenate our community." ""Members of many of our communities are from racial and religious minority groups that themselves experience discrimination, and we understand that human rights as guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms must extend to everyone, including gay men and lesbians," Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress said." Ofcourse, this is not the opinion of all Muslim. I don't generalize. But it is my opinion on the subject matter and that of other Muslims who are like minded. I won't not make a habit of having to justify Islam to you. You are too close minded.

Okay so you admit that Islam is no longer the only intolerant religon in the world? Then I guess I made my point. Maybe you should make your statements less broad. Next time just ask which other religon punished a crime of converting to another religon with death and I will tell you that none come to mind. It is a barbaric outdated law that is never carried out and should be removed from any judicary.

Gee. I wonder what your agenda is? Just a quick search on wikipedia brings up these non "ANCIENT HISTORY" tidbits for you consumption. Not that facts have any place in your ideaology anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_pe...ristians#Canada " During 1995-1998 Newfoundland had only Christian schools (four of them, Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, and inter-denominational (Anglican, Salvation Army and United Church)). The right to organize publicly supported religious schools was only given to certain Christian denominations, thus tax money used to support a selected group of Christian denominations. The denominational schools could also refuse admission of a student or the hiering of a qualified teacher on purely religious grounds." "In some U.S. jurisdictions legal restrictions exist which require a religious test as a qualification for holding public office, for instance in Texas an official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." (i.e. God) [7] thus atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, some Unitarian Universalists and New Age followers, who do not believe in a supreme being would be excluded from public office if the test were enforced. The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." [8] North Carolina's Constitution, Article 6 Sec. 8 states "Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God...." [9] South Carolina's Constitution, Article 4 Section 2: "Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution." [10] Tennessee's Bill of Rights: Article 9, Section 2: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." [11] Similarly, some state laws are framed with the intention of toleration of religious difference, but are criticized for coming short of withdrawing all mention of belief in God, or of Christianity. Massachusetts' Declaration of Rights: Article III (approved and ratified November 6, 1990): "make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily."", "...every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law." [12] "

That is good to hear. It was not more 50 years ago the greatest democracy on Earth allowed black people to vote and even while we criticize other fledgling democracies our own records on gay rights is less then stellar. Afghans still live in a backwards culture. We need to give the moderates and liberals time to change their society. It can’t happen overnight.

We are a secular country, not a Muslim one and not Christian one. It does not matter who is a minority or majority, all religions should be treated equally. I feel that as long as your practice of religion is not ‘impeding’ those around you or an excuse to promote it, I do not see any reason why a school can not have a universal prayer room. Saying this, I do agree with your point that alternative schooling should be considered if you intend to be orthodox in your beliefs.

Agreed. Islamophobia is definitely on the rise, but Muslim governments and religious leaders have to take an active role in countering the radical propaganda and hate, which they have done a very poor job of.

The Lord's Prayer was not eliminated . It was replaced by quiet reflection time, when people could choose to pray however the wished. I think that was common sense. If they remove prayer rooms, does that mean kids will now have to break from school and go home to pray? I don't see the point in that. I had prayer rooms when I was in high school.

Wow! The ignorant and intolerant are now preaching about the ignorant and intolerant. You complain that Islam is intolerant and then you call my belief “moronic fanaticism” and my prophet “stupid”. You say you believe in “one God and his son Jesus Christ” and could care less about Islam. Didn’t you find that hypocritical? You realize that this post was about intolerance right? Illiterate, uneducated people are taken advantage of all over the world by power hungry profiteers who care not for any religion, culture or morality. This barbaric law is not enforced in any other Muslim country in the world except for the well-documented medieval society of Afghanistan and still this becomes yet again a broad generalization about the beliefs of all Muslims. I do not believe in generalizations, they are usually used to spread hate. Nazi’s used it against the Jews, kkk against blacks, Hutus against Tutsis etc. I do not sit here and pretend to ignore the inexcusable actions taken place around the world in the name of my religion. But I know it has little to do with religion and a lot to do with fear, ignorance, poverty, corruption and propaganda. I know this because I live in a free, tolerant and open society where I have access to knowledge and cultures that the ordinary Afghans do not. Most Afghans have never met a Christian or Jew and they are afraid of them and belief in the propaganda that is forced upon them under the veil of religious fatwas. If you can transport the lot of them to Canada, I am sure that their opinions would drastically change once they were exposed to a free and multicultural society. But we don’t have that option. All we can do is try to educate them on the idea of democracy and freedom. What I don’t understand is how does someone living in this western society become just as intolerant. You have to be pretty damn ignorant wouldn’t you?