ClearWest

Libertarian.

He's been speaking in favour of keeping the wheat board - it's on his party's website. I think we're just seeing more of Dion since he's the new official opposition leader. People are watching him closely.

Then ... if all that happens in this world is the result of our choices ... why do we need the concept of God? What does it add to this world? If one can make bad choices bypassing God's will, one should be able to make good ones too - all without any divine interference. What is it that existence of God would have added to this picture? God created us for one - that's probably the biggest addition to the picture - he made the picture! But besides that, he provides guidance in teaching us what is right and wrong. I don't doubt that many people can live moral lives without religion - but there is another power trying to influence the human soul. And it is much easier to withstand the influence of the devil when you have a strong foundation in the gospel. Christ taught an interesting parable about this concept in Matthew 7:24-28.

You could also say that if a teacher was any good, all his/her students would have A's. But it doesn't work that way. The student has free agency to do well or to do poorly. The bad in our world is a result of our negative choices.

I'm kind of curious as to how many people nationally are actually registered with each political party. Does anybody know how to find those stats? It would also be interesting to see what percentage of a party's votes come from non-registered voters as compared to their devoted base.

The gospels seem to indicate otherwise. Christ himself indicated otherwise.

How about you, ClearWest, do you really think your vote makes a difference??? Interesting question. I believe it was you who said something about democracy which I tend to agree with - Your vote is worth less depending on the number of voters, it's simple fractions. There are a hundred voters, your vote is worth 1 out of 100, a full 1% of the vote. There are twenty billion voters, your vote is worth 1 out of 20B, an extremely low percentage. Do I think my vote makes a difference? I think it makes about as much difference as adding a single bean to a pile of a greater number of beans. The sad thing about it, I guess, is that your views aren't considered very valid until a majority thinks the same way as you. What is more important than the vote is the conversation that goes on beforehand during the candidates debates, getting your views across, and hopefully finding other people that agree with you and are willing to support your cause. I have my qualms with our democracy, and I would change parts of it if I had the chance, but to get to that stage we've gotta just go through the motions. That's one plus for democracy, is that things can eventually be changed, you just have to convince everybody else that the change is needed. EDIT: Sorry that my quote marks were in the wrong place. It's fixed now.

We've had threads asking you who you plan to vote for - but another topic I would like to explore is voting habits. Throughout your voting history, have you consistently supported a single party? Do you switch depending on the candidates in your riding, or depending on strategy? What were the circumstances under which you decided to vote for a party that you didn't normally support. I've noticed a lot of us are quite devoted to a certain party. How many of you are registered with a political party? Devotee, stategist, last minute chooser, or other? I'm interested in hearing your comments.

Right on! Looks like we've got more of a base here than I thought.

We should enjoy it, Christmas only comes once a year. I can't believe it! We've pulled ahead! *High five* Liberal [ 1 ] [14.29%] Conservative [ 2 ] [28.57%] Socialist [ 0 ] [0.00%] Libertarian [ 3 ] [42.86%] South Park Republican [ 1 ] [14.29%]

Wow, for the moment anyway, Libertarians are tied for first. Our minority government must be coming up soon.

It's not like everyone who is of a certain faith is saved, and everyone else is lost. Each person will be judged according to their own faith and works. It's like the old saying, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a car." A lot of different religions can have the truth. If you are confused by a difference in doctrine, you should pray and ask God what is true. You should also ask God if your religion is true. You might find that God will direct you to the truth.

I don't know how useful this will be to you, but if you get the chance: 1 Corinthians 2:14. PS, don't be scared.

I read your reply and I figure at this point we are just reiterating what we have already said and are not progressing. But on this point, you say God has offered me the evidence but it takes faith. Can I then ask you to present that evidence? Not me personally, no. All I can do is point out the promise that God has made to offer the evidence to all who are faithful. And offer my personal testimony that I know these things are true. Most of the scriptures that I've mentioned in this thread are about faith, and what comes as a result of faith. But here's one more that I want to share, John 14:21. If you haven't read the previous ones, please do. That's all I really have to say on the subject, and I appreciate the civility that was shown during this discussion. Again, best wishes.

That's a good question, and a frequently asked one. My answer is this: God isn't a genie. And there are reasons for the trials which we go through on earth, we can't just wish them away. Instead, in our prayers, we should ask for comfort and guidance throughout our trials. (1 Corinthians 1:3-6)

Hey I ain't the one who has a book that lectures his followers on how faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, but at the same time un-willing to work with 8 people who poses faith, to make right the world. He obviously was willing to work with 8 people - that's why he let them survive the flood and trusted them with the daunting task of repopulating the entire earth. All them I find to be un-provable claims contingent on Faith. Faith is Useless it is why there are 2 Billion Christians, 1.5 Billion Muslims, 1 Billions Hindu's, an assortment of religions with 300 million followers each, and an assortment below that adding probabley another 200 million. And then within almost every religion, there are sects and denominations that each believe something different, or split on a number of major fundemental issues. All these people have some faith, many of these people do give their lives to their God/gods. With out evidence faith is an unreasonable requirement that leads to a widley divergent number of religions each claiming to have the truth, each requiring faith, and offering little in the way of evidence. All believing they got it right, all armed with their faith. All those billions of people that are not of my faith--God's message is available to them too. We want them to be brought into the fold as well. Even if they go to different churches, as long as the person earnestly tries to seek God and does what is expected of them (to the extent of their knowledge), I think they will be right in the sight of Christ. If they do wrong out of ignorance, I believe they will have the chance in the afterlife to learn God's way (Timothy 1:13). But all we can do is keep trying, keep teaching and learning and progressing. God has offered you the evidence. Yes it takes faith - much like how a fire requires fuelling. You can't just stand by a fireplace and demand fire. You have to act first. God gave you the instructions. They're in the Bible. There's nothing difficult about it... God set a clear path. If it's too much for you to come up off of your high horse and show a bit of faith, then I guess we should just leave it at that. As for me, I've seen enough evidence, enough miracles at God's hands to know that he exists. If you really feel that you have asked sincerely and gotten no answer - fine. But something tells me that you don't want it to be true... because that would (perhaps) require you to give up the things of the world that you have become so comfortable with. Are you willing to give up all of your sins to know God? Your answer is none of my business, but it's not easy to feel the presence of God when your heart is blotched with sin. I don't know what you have to lose.

To me, it's more of a learning and growing experience. A time of personal progress, becoming the kind of person that God wants you to be, and achieving long-term happiness, eventually eternal happiness.

One of the things that he wants us to do is to believe in him. That is one of the things that he expects, one of the problems that we've already established that he isn't going to solve for us. He wants us to exercise the faith, and then he will reveal himself to us - this has happened throughout history, often in small ways, sometimes in big. Well first off apparently 8 people were co-operating with God. So to say everyone was not co-operating with God is blatantly false. I didn't say that. What I said was simply: "If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on." I don't mind restating it to be more clear: If everyone in the world (everyone but eight people, in the case of Noah's Ark) isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on. What are the other options? Let the world continue in wickedness, thus accomplishing nothing and leading billions upon billions of souls to damnation? God's children cannot progress eternally in a world where wickedness prevails. God had to create a chance for future generations to choose righteousness - the wickedness of the people in that day made that very unlikely. Remember, God sees the big picture. Or, are you suggesting that he is 'incompetent' for letting us get that far to begin with? The only alternative to letting us have a choice between right and wrong is to make that decision for us. And that wouldn't allow us to learn and progress. I'm not sure what you're getting at. The man still murdered her. I think most courts of law would convict him of murder. God has had to direct his people - if there is a big work that he has to get accomplished, he clearly doesn't object to taking big steps to accomplish it. These events usually involved the welfare of a great number of souls. I don't think God has a problem with talking - I believe he has spoken to prophets throughout history, and they have passed his guidance on to us. You sound very bitter that God hasn't personally appeared to you. God confirms himself in many different ways, big and small. However, God won't send thunder and lightning... when a still small voice is enough. God wants to give us all a chance to come unto him by our own will. Again, in some cases God has had a hand in events, in other cases he has let us decide for ourselves. It's not like there's a 'God-rule' that says he has to either control everybody's lives or not do anything at all. I think there is a fair balance of those things. He wants to let us decide first, but he will step in if the need is there. The Bible has been rewritten, revised, translated, and compiled in different orders many many times since it was first written. I believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Well in that case by all means Can you; 1. Empirically proove to me there is a God? 2. Empirically proove there is only One God (assuming you believe in only one) 3. Empirically proove that it is infact your God? 4. Empirically proove that the holy book(s) associated with your God are in fact divinely inspired? 5. Empirically proove that all events recorded in that holy book actually did happen? I never said I could empirically prove anything. I'm sorry if that's a disappointment for you, but I don't think it works that way. I can, however, offer the following insight: --What is required: Hebrews 11 --An example of a small, but powerful, sign of confirmation from God: Luke 24:32 --Again, what we can do: Matthew 16:25 --and one of my favourites (because it helped me very much in my spiritual pursuit), how to know: John 7:17 It is all a question of evidence, for me, with out evidence it is impossible to believe him. I don't know all things, and I don't know why it has to be this way. But I know that God knows... if someone were to ask him, I'm sure he would not withold his truth from them. (James 1:5.) I don't want this conversation to be an ongoing battle. I respect that you have great doubts about these things, and I don't want to push it. I also admit that I don't know everything about the Bible, and I too am confused by some of its content, so it would be pointless for me to continue debating about it. However, I believe in God, and I believe that he wants what is best for us. I know this from reading the scriptures and applying the teachings to my life, and praying about it. Anyone who is on the fence about this issue, (or anyone in general) I encourage you to read the scriptures I listed here. They were an inspiration to me, and I hope they can help you out in a time of need. Best wishes.

Slavik44, I didn't say that. Here's what I said: If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on. By flooding the earth, he allowed us to make a fresh start. Our choices have consequences. Sometimes it takes a long time for us to see the results of our actions, sometimes the result is immediate. Why God chose to give such an immediate consequence to this Israelite, I can only guess. I can assume that he didn't go to hell for such a small act of disobedience - I expect he got a chance to repent and come unto God in the afterlife. But perhaps the reason for this example being included in the Bible is to let people know that there are consequences to our actions, and it is important to obey God's word. Look at the complete context of this chapter in the bible (Numbers 15 bytheway - Slavik, please include references if you know them). In the verses before this incidence, the writer speaks of the difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning 'presumptuously'. This man knew of the consequences and he still made the choice. They had a choice to be righteous or to be wicked. They chose wickedness, and the consequence was that they lost the promised land. People have free will, and can make conscious choices. There are 'natural' consequences to their actions - example, aids infected fluid gets into your body, you get aids. People make IED's and do all those things, not God. God sometimes gives a consequence, like-in where the earth was flooded, but we bring these consequences upon ourselves. I don't think this is a contradiction. The entire camp was commanded not to take 'the accursed thing', (Joshua 6:18) so I expect that Achan's family helped him hide it after he stole it. Harsh consequence for stealing? Yes, but God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. For reasons unknown to me, he gave Achan an immediate consequence. Slavik, I understand that when you were growing up you followed the letter of the law, read the Bible, said your prayers, and went through the motions. It sounds to me like, in action, you did everything right. I'm not here to criticize you or to say that you 'just need to believe'. I'm just here to state what I believe and to explain why I believe it. I stand by the things that I said, and I stand by my religious views. I know that God exists, and I feel that in order to gain this personal testimony it is not enough to engage in scholarly debate. If anyone is going to try to live righteously, they should do it for no one besides themselves and God. We all know the difference between right and wrong--instead of trying to blur that line to get away with things, we need to seek to really try to be our best selves, and not just to look better than our neighbours. Again, Slavik, I'm not saying you did any of this. Whatever you need to do to reconcile yourself with God is always between God and the individual. Sometimes a bishop or friend can help, but the person has to want to build a relationship with God, and they have to want to make improvements in their lives. I hope you can all approach this matter without an attitude of scoffing or upset. The Gospel is meant to unite people with God and with each other.

We were created with a logic mind, I agree. We were also created with the strength and animal instinct to be able to kill other people... that doesn't mean we have to use that potential in such a way. Any tool can become a weapon in the wrong hands. We can use our physical strength to do good, or we can use it to do bad. We can use our logic to solve problems within our lives, and we can use it to shut God out of our lives. It all depends on what we choose to use it for. You can have logic and faith at the same time. Just like you can have strength -and the will to use your strength appropriately- at the same time. Why is faith a requirement? Why can't God just show himself to us? Why doesn't he just come down here and solve all of our problems? Why? Because he wants us to learn to make these decisions for ourselves. If he came down and revealed everything to us, we wouldn't have to exercise any effort on our part. Faith and trust, I believe, is one of the lessons of life which we are being taught. HOWEVER, like I said in a previous post, we will not be left in the dark! All you Bible scholars out there, flip to John 7:17. I'll paraphrase: He that doeth his will, will know of the doctrine, whether I speak of God, or whether I speak of myself. It takes action on your part first. Draw near unto God, and he shall draw near unto thee. Ask, and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be open unto you.

My 'Holy Grail' is long-term happiness, and self-improvement.

The only example that I recognize of those four names is Swaggert, who claimed to be a devout Christian, but became involved in scandal after scandal. All I can really say about that is -- yeah, he was a hypocrite. He wasn't keeping the commandments... but there are people that do. There are people that are really sincere and really try their best and do what they feel is right. Those are the people who I was talking about. I agree. Actually, I might go so far as to say that Jesus taught the same thing. He taught that not only should you seek to obey the commandments outwardly, but within your heart. Matthew, chapter 5. I'll paraphrase: Thou shalt not kill, but he that is angry with his brother does sin also. Thou shalt not commit adultery, but he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has commited adultery in his heart. What makes people better is not necessarily living the letter of the law (although that helps), but what makes the difference is the mighty change in heart that people experience when they really desire to do good. Many are. Every group has its bad eggs. Just like Muslims have extremists that do bombings in the street, it doesn't make them all bad. The Gospel (Christianity) has imperfect people following it. Things like this are bound to happen. But people that truly follow the gospel, that sincerely try, do become better people. I feel that I have become a better person by trying to stay true to my gospel principles, and I notice a difference in the people around me as well. From my experience, people that break the commandments end up being much more unhappy than those that keep them.

I have made observations, not with a microscope, not will a telescope, nor admittedly using any chemical or mathematic formula. But I have observed the way people conduct their lives... and I've noticed something different, something special about people who live in what they (and I) would call a righteous manner. By keeping the commandments and being faithful, something has touched their lives and made them better people, and brought them a kind of inner peace. That something, I believe, is God. It's a personal thing that you can't really teach in classrooms or study in laboratories. But if you seek out truth, I expect that that something will touch your life too. Jesus said, "ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you". God exists, and he is our eternal father, he won't leave you in the dark.

You omit that whole "constitutionally protected right to religious freedom" thing. Religious freedom is guaranteed in the constitution, but how long will that really hold up? Looking at this thread, you can tell that a lot of people don't have much respect for religious tradition. If that becomes the norm, I won't put much faith in the charter to defend religious freedom - constitutions can be changed. It may not be a popular thing to do to change the charter, but if it's for the cause of ending discrimination, a ruling body could probably get away with it.

By 'Holy Grail' do you mean most sought after posession?