[Islamophobia in Canada]

That was my initial thought too, but then think about those people who jumped to their death from the burning towers on 9/11. Not quite the same, but when you only have a few options, and they are equally deadly, you gotta make the best choice. In the case of the Syrian refugees it's either stay put and risk getting blown up/shot and not much of a future there, or, a dangerous trek across water to a possible better life. I'd rather me and my family drown of our own accord than to be murdered at the hands of some power hungry P.O.S.

We would all have to make our own choices. The people who jumped from the burning towers on 9/11 were in charge of their own lives. They weren't taking their children with them. Also, there was no safe place there at all. To remain was certain death by fire.

If I remained in a war torn land I would take a chance on whatever I felt was safest for my child. God help me, I would even feign fellowship with ISIS for the sake of my child. But never for myself.

What if some of the people, the young single men in particular, who are fleeing ISIS had stayed and formed an underground to fight them on their own turf and terms? Many are already doing that and with the numbers of the refugees added, they would become quite a force.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

I agree that there are very many disadvantaged people in our country, and for whom we should be doing more. But we have to have both the political and social will to help those people. In BC, I've seen that business people are offering jobs and property owners are offering free rent for up to four months for the refugees. How sweet is that?

But where are these people when a 55 year old disabled man is looking for part-time work and decent living accommodation? For a single mother who is working a minimum wage job and going to the food bank in order to feed her kids? Where is the support for increasing minimum wage to an actual 'living' wage, even a poor living? It's not there. Instead, we get people (usually conservatives) saying things like: they can find a different job, people shouldn't expect the government to look after them, these people made choices, not our fault if now they're suffering for them.

It's really convenient for people to use the plight of our own "poor" people to deny refugees, and yet also refuse to help our own poor people because essentially it's not up to "them" and if poor people are poor, it must be because of something they did or didn't do (didn't get an education, had kids when they shouldn't have, spent too much time partying, etc). Maybe not you specifically, but I've seen more than a few exhibit that kind of hypocrisy here and there.

Anyway, for the moment there is both the political and social will to help these people, and to spend the money it takes. Maybe some day there'll be the same support for our own, and that will happen as well.

I'm not against helping people. I think what bothers me most is the mass hysteria that the government and media have whipped up over the refugee crisis. The government (any government) who will go to such lengths to provide for refugees but turn a blind eye to their own people's needs makes me angry.

Maybe it bothers me more than some others because I've been one of those poor single mothers working at two jobs and refused an application for low income housing because 'they are for families'. One child doesn't make a family apparently, in the eyes of the government.

I'm not going to hijack this thread with my own experiences as a desperate person. I just think that the help the government and even private individuals are giving the refugees is over and above what is needed.

I'm also concerned about the cost. The deficit is going to cost us all dearly in the long run and the unemployment situation is promising to worsen. (Maple Leaf Food today announced a lay-off of 400 more). We are all going to be living in dire poverty at some future point. Some legacy for our children! It isn't just the Federal deficit but the Provinces are also going to need more from us.

I think they could have done this a lot more cheaply if they wanted to.

Chartering jets? If they wanted to involve the military why not use troop carriers to transport the refugees? We have ships that could transport more than a jetliner and we're already paying their crews.

Health care? Why don't they set up temporary clinics for the refugees? Maybe hire back some of the nurses that have been previously laid off? (I'm speaking here about Ontario). Our facilities here are already bursting at the seams. My husband became paralysed and almost died 2 years ago because of lack of care.

It isn't the refugees themselves or even helping them that upsets me. It is the way it is being done and the strain it will put on our services and our economy and problems that will arise that haven't even been considered yet by the majority of people.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Non-Muslims keep saying this, and Muslims keep saying something else. Are you Muslim, notca? Have you spent years studying the Koran and the history of Islam? Have you spent decades teaching the Koran? Just why should what you say be taken more seriously than what thousands of Islamic scholars and clerics say, and what over 1 billion Muslims also believe?

I have only spent 4 - 5 years studying the Qu'ran, since the controversy about Islam begin to rear it's head. And I would never teach such clap-trap to anyone, even if I were qualified!

I have no agenda to promote. Muslims have. I am non-religious, they are devoted to their religion.

I am only interested in the truth and the truth as I have seen it is what I have posted.

I don't believe Christians either when they claim to be Christians but don't act like it, preaching hatred for lifestyles with which they disagree.

It is my experience that religious people will say anything (perhaps even believe it) to justify their actions and that includes lying. That is why I left the Church years ago and never looked back. I think organized religion have only one purpose; to control their followers.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

Maybe we're trying to be nicer now than we were to the Jews, eh? And maybe for the actual Muslim services they will use an existing 'religious' building. Maybe when the organizers say "allocate prayer space", they merely mean a quiet corner where an individual can have a moment of privacy. I expect most of them would be praying inside their homes, but on the other hand, I don't know the layout of military bases, or the accommodations, or just why the organizers would think that is important. And maybe it's not, they're just going all out to ensure a little comfort for people who've bee through hell. Seems to be a problem for some people, which I think is kind of petty and nitpicky, but then I'm not expecting these prayer spaces to be extravagant either - maybe a sign saying "prayer space --->", or something.

It isn't being petty and nitpicky. Refugees, imo, would be needing safety and sustenance. We are providing that for them. The cost of this endeavor already exceeds six billion dollars that we don't have. It only seems prudent to cut out any services which are unnecessary to safety and sustenance. There are a good many of our own disadvantaged people who are living in conditions that are poorer than those that will be provided for the refugees. Those people too have children who go hungry and are endangered by the violence of life on the streets. Nobody volunteered to give our disadvantage a chance for betterment in their lives to the tune of six thousand, never mind six billion!

How much is enough? How much is too much? Shouldn't 'adequate' be enough for now?

[Islamophobia in Canada]

I don't want to waste any more energy on the ugliness of humans (at least for today). I rather think about the good:

No one with a heart could not be moved by the sight of those refugees arriving.

But I have given a lot of thought to the matter. I know that if this country were engaged in civil conflict, if we were poor, hungry and our lives were in danger there is no way I would put my young children in a raft like that and attempt to cross a sea. I would do whatever I could to hide, protect and provide for them and pray for the best but setting them out on a journey like that would not be an option.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

It is 100% valid. It's how one interprets the violence that seems to be the issue.

No it is not valid. There is only one way to interpret violence. How many ways can 'Kill' be interpreted? Or 'submission' ? It is not a matter of interpretation. All religious people seem to cherry pick which parts of their Holy Books to live by, whatever will justify what they do.

The violence in the Bible's OT is no longer relevant to Christians who are really Christians. The OT was revised and amended by Jesus in the NT.

There is no such revision or amendment in the Qu'ran. The violence of the Qu'ran is the same today as it was in the beginning.

One could say that violent Christians are worse than Muslims because they have a choice in what to believe while Muslims only have one book of instruction. Thankfully, Christians as a whole do not resort to violence. they can be damned mean and hateful but mostly they respect the laws against violence.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

"Allocating prayer space" - I could be wrong here, but 'allocating space' doesn't mean the same thing as 'Sprucing up'. Fail #2. In any case, I imagine military personnel are allowed accommodation for their religious needs, so why not refugees?

In wartime the military provided religious services for Protestants and Catholics. Jews had no where to go so they chose one of the above.

This is not 'wartime' so why are the Muslims so privileged? FGS do they HAVE to pray en masse? Do they think Allah can not hear their individual prayers?

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

I wonder how many of these refugees will end up in the USA?

I think the Americans are wondering that too!

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

Not many people if this site is any indication.

Precisely what is it you think people are ignorant about?

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

Apparently some of you missed the unveiling of the Liberal plan for refugees that they delivered yesterday.

Refugees will only be assigned to military bases if absolutely necessary

All security check will have been completed before the refugees enter Canada

Total cost of Government sponsorship is in excess of 6 billion $.

Refugees will be transported by chartered jets.

There are still a lot of details to be released and I'm sure the media will be probing on Power Play and Power and Politics tonight. Tune in.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

So you didn't actually read their platform then.

Sorry, I don't get the connection you are making here. I think everyone who was paying attention knew what their platform was/is.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Jacee and Eye need to hear this from me because as much as I debate them both there are certain things I need to support them on because deep inside they know I debate them because of a battle over how to be idealistic not being idealistic.

You are both totally right to say we should not stereotype all Muslims as terrorists. For God's sake my disgust with the Liberal's is the crass way they exploited the Syrian refugee issue, not the Syrian people.

Sometimes its not made clear enough in debate. People, innocent people fleeing from terrorism of any kind, surely we have time to reach out and help them. If we don't we abandon all the values this country stands for.

My concern is with improper screening, improper logistics to support refugees once they are her, not refugees.

My concern is with terrorists or extremists coming in under the guise of being victims and actually coming here to spy on and keep tabs on Syriansf or Assad or ISIL, etc.

This issue is for me is bloody close. My mother was a refugee. All my grandparents were. For me to sheeyit on refugees for being refugees is not a choice.

Push come to shove I will and have helped. However I will continue to challenge Muslim extremism as hateful and incompatible with Canadian values.

I make no apology in saying Ismaili and Amidyah Muslims are the model for Muslims best suited for Canada. Why because their values embrace peace, respect, hard work. To me Islam is not the issue, its how you apply it.

You bet I have bias and it is against all extremist religions.

If conversation turns to stereotyping all Muslims as bad people, then I have to stand with you 2 and I will but I do not think and call me naïve, I do not think the Canadians you think hate Muslims necessarily the Muslims-I think its Muslim extremism they can't stand and they are not doing a good job explaining that because I know I haven't.

You have the absolute right to call me a bigot if you think I am writing off all Muslims as terrorists. I don't think and call me naïve any of us are.. I think some of us can not stand extremists of any kind.

Nuff said. I see tired people coming and I am not interested in beating up on them and hating them. Their children will be welcome in my home.

I don't believe people are stereotyping Muslims, they are stereotyping their religion. And rightly so in my opinion.

In order to assimilate into Western societies, Muslims will have to align their allegiance with the laws of their adopted countries. As it is, many of them put their allegiance to their religion first and that is not compatible with our Constitution.

Western societies will not accept male dominance, forced marriage, marriages of old men to little girls, the intolerance of certain foods and alcohol, demands to change our laws to accommodate religious freedom. In those areas and other areas as well, Muslims will have to learn to compromise and adapt.

There are ways that Muslims could show their willingness to adapt that they still reject. One glaring mistake they make, I believe, is their continuance of wearing head coverings It is widely known that it is not a religious requirement but a cultural preference. If the head coverings were discarded, they would not draw unnecessary attention to their 'difference'. Their boldness in defence is evident in the tv interviews where they appear in Muslim attire defending their right to wear it. Well of course they have that right, but all I am saying is, Is it wise?

It is only prudent to avoid confrontation whenever possible and I believe this is one way that would go far in avoiding cultural clashes.

Canadian would welcome any sign that there is acceptance of our own culture.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

I do not like Trudeau. I feel the Liberals exploited the Syrian refugee issue for votes I feel they pandered. I feel they took a photo of a dead boy and exploited it for votes.

I feel their playing favourites with Syrian refugees is wrong playing now with gays and women is a joke, and that all refugees must be treated the same way.

All that said and as much as I can not stand what the Liberals did using crass politics to exploit Syrian refugees for votes I think their decision now to slow down is called for and shows maturity and leadership.

You bet I question the idiocy of saying single men can't come to Canada unless they are gay. Yah whatever that means.

I think the Liberals have played with one refugee group at the expense of others to pander for votes-that is despicable and crass..

All that said, I think their decision to slow down, screen outside the country, etc., should be supported. Its the right thing to do now.

I think its time to trust good people to screen for bad people and to help.

Call me naïve but I think its time.

When you consider the number of promises the Liberals made to win the election (something for everyone) the voters should have realized that it would not be possible to keep all of those promises.

This is where Harper was correct in saying, "Trudeau is just not ready". He(Trudeau) might have actually believed he was going to change the world but he was naïve at best. He does not have the life experience to know what the realities of the world are. One can only hope that he will learn a thing or two!

I agree that the Liberals would have said anything to gain power. The people were so enthralled with the idea of 'change' that they didn't think the ill-advised 'promises' through. I still can't understand fully the desperate need for change at this particular time when the world is so unstable! I liked Canada the way it was.

I disagree with you that excluding single males from the program was a bad idea. In times of threat, it has always been 'women and children first'. Who was first into the life boats when the Titanic was sinking? Women and children.

Who were NOT conscripted when war broke out? Women and children.

'Women and children first' has always been the way of the civilized world.

Women and children are much more vulnerable and in need of protection than single males. Therefore I think this decision was prudent. When (and if) the first and second wave of refugees gets settled and oriented successfully I'm sure single males will get their turn.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

It was a bottom-of-the-barrel accusation from a bottom-of-the-barrel member. And from here on I'm going to not bother responding to dog-crap like that.

-k

That is a wise decision, kimmy!

It is evident that some posters are here with the sole purpose of being insulting. Cowards who couldn't get away with it in real life without someone beating on them. When you ignore them you deprive them of the pleasure the take in getting a reaction.

Your views are as welcome and interesting as anyone else's and you have every right to express your opinions. That's what public forums are for!

I find your thoughts are not 'knee-jerk' but very carefully considered.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

I give the Liberals credit for delaying the process. It was the prudent thing to do.

But to show how contrary Canadians can be, some of the same who were convinced the plan was moving too fast are now yapping about a broken promise. Go figure!

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Boy O Boy! You gotta love the way some of you thrown around words like, 'xenophobia' and 'bigot'. Accusations like that against people you can't see face to face or have any real life knowledge of are low and uncalled for!

Socialists use that method of 'labelling' to make others who don't agree with their views shut up. When you have reasonable arguments for a particular way of thinking you don't need to stoop to name calling and character attacks. When you have an open mind you listen respectfully to differing opinions.

When did it become an societal necessity to agree with an opinion that you disagree with?

[1000 sleeper cells in North America?]

You missed the lead up to GWB's invasion of Iraq?

I must have had a memory lapse. I don't remember being on any side back then.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

And why don't we see this played out with Canadians fighting for human rights of native Canadians? Why do so many reservations continually fight for safe drinking water, education, heated homes, healthcare etc. All of a sudden it appears when we are trying to help refugees.

Well I don't know. Why do you think? And what have you done? It's pretty damned hard for individuals to do anything meaningful when the ones who hold the money and the power work against them.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Oh ffs.

Tell me notca ... how much work have you done in the past on behalf of "our own needy" ?

Have you lobbied hard for them, or complained about them using your tax dollars?

Did you ever care about them before, or are they just a convenient excuse for xenophobia?

.

You are assuming a lot here.

I and many like me have done quite a lot for our own needy . Our efforts to engage the government in any signifigant aid program have fallen on deaf ears. They have money enough to throw in other directions but the places where it is most needed. Putting on a show for the world is their main concern while they sweep the plight of their most needy citizens under the rug or hide them behind the dumpsters. . Individual and small group participation is like trying to fill a bathtub with a dripping tap while the stopper is open.

What have YOU done besides accuse people with realistic concerns of xenophobia? It's pretty damned small to make such an accusation just because some others don't agree with your way of thinking. It's low and uncalled for!

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Right, and I see Canadians tripping all over themselves helping fellow Canadians.

My point exactly! Canadians are all wrapped up in their love affair with JT and the Liberals just now. If JT and the Liberals had paid some attention to needy fellow Canadians it would have been helpful.

I was wondering, if your child (not YOURS, specifically) and a neighbour's child were in the street and a truck was bearing down on them and you had an opportunity to save only one of those children, how many people would choose to save the neighbours child before saving his own? That analogy portrays what we are doing in accepting this great influx of refugees.

It is human nature to protect and look after our own first so what's with Canadians who are so gung ho to save the refugees when they won't make the effort to help the down and outers?

[Islamophobia in Canada]

There is much more to the anti-refugee sentiment than Islamophobia.

It is the belief that our government should be looking after it's own people FIRST, before burdening its taxpayers with the tremendous expense and inconvenience of solving the problems of outsiders.

There are Aboriginals in this country who are living in deplorable, unsanitary conditions in tumble down shacks with no clean water, limited and unaffordable food supplies, lack of educational and health facilities and no hope of any betterment in the future.

There are multitudes of homeless, jobless and mentally ill who need help desperately.

There are low income families who are struggling to survive, desperately in need of affordable housing, going deeper into debt by the month with no hope of a better future due to constantly rising costs.

These unfortunate Canadians will suffer even more when the influx of refugees descends on us.

With the world economy in a slump, our economy could plummet at any time in spite of the Liberal's rosy outlook. Already people are losing jobs due to the sagging oil industry. As the deficit increases there will be more demand on the already burdened taxpayers to cough up more of their earnings.

It couldn't be a worse time to take in hordes of strangers who cannot speak the language, are in need of services that are already overcrowded and for whom there will be very few job opportunities.

Yes, Canadians have good reason to question and resent this refugee plan. These naysaying Canadian are not heartless monsters without sympathy for the plight of the refugees. They are just people who believe that we should care for our own needy first and that ultimately we will plunge ourselves into the same dire straits as the refugees who are victims of other countries whose governments acted irresponsibly.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

Oh, you want in on this now? Maybe you can answer some of the questions that Bryan has danced around.

Do you acknowledge that for centuries (prior to the enlightenment), there have been atrocities committed by European Christians that have been just as brutal as what ISIS is doing right now?

Can you find the spot in the bible where Jesus says homosexuality is wrong?

Do you agree with Bryan that the old testament is now just a historical reference since Jesus replaced it with a kinder, gentler version of Christianity? If so, how do you explain the support of many Christians for the death penalty? It was the old testament that said "an eye for an eye". Jesus said "Turn the other cheek".

Your comparison of the violent passages of the Bible to Islam is not valid.

The violence committed by Christians who focused on the OT has long disappeared into the past. Islam has clung to its ancient tenets unchanged unto the present day.

Sure there are still Christian crazies who question the law and strive to inflict their wrong-headed beliefs on society but they do not kill to uphold their beliefs. The laws of the land forbid such violent actions. Muslims who are born and raised in Islamic countries will naturally be enured to laws they have always lived with.

Some people seem to like bring up the violence of the past as justification for the violence of the presence carried out by Muslims. There is just no comparison. Other religions have evolved to a point of civilized reason. Islam has not.

[Islamophobia in Canada]

A lot of the objection to what I have been saying has been accusations that I'm not appreciating that there are many different views in the Muslim community, or anecdotal examples of Muslims who are friendly and progressive. And that completely misses the point.

I realize that not all Muslims hold the same views. I realize that even in extremely regressive Muslim countries, there are people who disagree with the laws. I'm aware that there are lots of individuals who don't fit the stereotype.

But we're not talking about individual cases, we're talking about the aggregate effect of tens of thousands of individuals. And in Europe, where they're much further along the path of bringing in Muslims that we are, we've seen that the aggregate effect of immigration from Muslim countries has brought with it some negative effects.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in anti-Jewish incidents.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in sexual violence against women.

In Europe their experience has been that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants simply won't integrate with society. A lot of people feel that that integration has been a complete failure, and this "alienation" of these Muslims who can't or won't integrate is often blamed for Muslim "anger" in these countries.

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

Okay I will give you my answer.

What we could do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing is learn a lesson from it and not do it.

I don't see any positives from bringing more Muslims to Canada. I don't think they should have been brought to Canada in such number at all.

Islam is not compatible with Western societies. Our Constitutions allow freedoms that Islam forbids (speech, religion, equality) and has laws against what Islam demands,( male domination, polygamy, forced marriages etc.)

I don't know of a country that has received large numbers of Muslims that has not experienced clashes between Muslim culture/religious beliefs and the laws of the land. Muslims do not get along with each other let alone with non-Muslims. There are those who would deny that but they are ignoring the reports of Muslim vs. other culture conflicts. They see only what they want to see.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

Speaking of aboriginals has anyone consulted them about the commitments towards refugees that Canada has made? I'm surprised our constitutional obligation to consult aboriginal people isn't a factor in this issue - I know I'd like to hear their perspective on it.

The aboriginals voted in large numbers for the Liberals and they knew what the plan was so I assume they were alright with it.

[Trudeau's Committment to Syrian Refugees - 25,000 by Year End]

I'm a descendant of the ruling class from the late 1700s to early 1800s on my mother's side, and immigrants from the late 1800s on my father's side. I win, eh?

Anyway, according to the Government of Canada, early settlers got more than you think ...

Whoever is putting out this crap is full of it! Talk about rewriting history!

I don't know where all this 'government help' was when my ancestors came in the late 1700s. All of the immigrants who came here around that time went through hardships not even imagined by today' immigrants and they did so willingly ON THEIR OWN!

Where was government assistance when the Selkirk Settlers perished, every one of them?

No, this Government of Canada BS is just that - BS.