Where your federal tax money goes...

[Pliny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporation

The first two sentences say quite a bit.

"Crown corporations, in theory, are owned by the Canadian Sovereign. However, this is based on the legal technicality that the Crown, as an institution, owns all the property of government."

It is a very difficult thing to discover who owns what these days. There is no list of shareholders for the Federal Reserve one can easily find. Lawyers hold shares in trust for other lawyers who hold shares in trust for corporations whose lawyers hold shares in trust for anonymous shareholders. Quite the shell game, really. It is quite dangerous to say you own something as there is no shortage of individuals who will conspire to take it away.

I know, why not say the people own it. Then no one will take it away. Great joke! Almost as funny as saying money doesn't grow on trees.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Pliny

[geoffrey]

Read the Canada Bank Act section 17 paragraph two re:Shares.

Question: What is a "Crown Corporation"?

Ok.

Capital

17. (1) The capital of the Bank shall be five million dollars but may be increased from time to time pursuant to a resolution passed by the Board of Directors and approved by the Governor in Council and by Parliament.

Shares

(2) The capital shall be divided into one hundred thousand shares of the par value of fifty dollars each, which shall be issued to the Minister to be held by the Minister on behalf of Her Majesty in right of Canada.

Registration

(3) The shares issued to the Minister shall be registered by the Bank in the name of the Minister in the books of the Bank at Ottawa.

So it's all held by the Minister of Finance. Great. What is exactly is your conspiracy?

What is a Crown Corporation? A corporation with a controlling interest owned by the Crown through the government of Canada.

It is a very difficult thing to discover who owns what these days.

Not really. The BoC is owned by the Ministery of Finance. If you have evidence to the contray, you'll be a millionaire selling your story. I wish you all the best.

There is no list of shareholders for the Federal Reserve one can easily find. Lawyers hold shares in trust for other lawyers who hold shares in trust for corporations whose lawyers hold shares in trust for anonymous shareholders.

Evidence? I provided evidence that it's owned by the Minister of Finance. Where is yours that it's held by some secret collective of lawyers and corporate operatives. Just because you believe it, unfortunately doesn't make it so. Though it would be a good leader in the National Inquirer.

[Pliny]

Ok.

So it's all held by the Minister of Finance. Great. What is exactly is your conspiracy?

What is a Crown Corporation? A corporation with a controlling interest owned by the Crown through the government of Canada.

Not really. The BoC is owned by the Ministery of Finance. If you have evidence to the contray, you'll be a millionaire selling your story. I wish you all the best.

Evidence? I provided evidence that it's owned by the Minister of Finance. Where is yours that it's held by some secret collective of lawyers and corporate operatives. Just because you believe it, unfortunately doesn't make it so. Though it would be a good leader in the National Inquirer.

Yes. The National Enquirer. Did you miss the part "on behalf of her majesty" that's sort of a leader. Sorry, a few years ago I did come across some information regarding the ownership of the Bank of Canada, on their official website actually, but the issue is not really important enough for me to dig up nor would it make any difference.

I used to be quite a proponent of conspiracy theories but have abandoned that tack for several years now and accepted that so much more is explained by man's ignorance and psychological make-up. I am willing to learn. I do have strong opinions about what I have learned though.

You sound quite knowledgeable regarding finance and economics. I am a great fan of the Austrian theory of Economics, Lew Rockwell (for the most part), Libertarian philosophy and all those that contribute to it. We most likely have some contrary opinions on the subjects but I am not that well schooled in them and am not an economist by any stretch. I am looking forward to reading more from you.

[geoffrey]

Yes. The National Enquirer. Did you miss the part "on behalf of her majesty" that's sort of a leader. Sorry, a few years ago I did come across some information regarding the ownership of the Bank of Canada, on their official website actually, but the issue is not really important enough for me to dig up nor would it make any difference.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that it's the Minister of Finance that owns 100% of it.

It would be a big deal if you could find that. But the annual report also backs my view, as does the Bank of Canada Act and the BoC website. The Americans do have a different setup that's a little more mysterious (but it's all on the level at the end of the day). Our's is pretty simple in comparison.

You sound quite knowledgeable regarding finance and economics. I am a great fan of the Austrian theory of Economics, Lew Rockwell (for the most part), Libertarian philosophy and all those that contribute to it. We most likely have some contrary opinions on the subjects but I am not that well schooled in them and am not an economist by any stretch. I am looking forward to reading more from you.

While I'm not a huge fan of Austrian Economics, I am a fan of Libertarian philosophy. I'm an accountant and I focused alot on energy economics throughout my degree, one class short right now of getting a minor in that... which would explain the finance thing. Having contrary opinions is what makes discussion interesting.

[jennie]

Yes. The National Enquirer. Did you miss the part "on behalf of her majesty" that's sort of a leader. Sorry, a few years ago I did come across some information regarding the ownership of the Bank of Canada, on their official website actually, but the issue is not really important enough for me to dig up nor would it make any difference.

I used to be quite a proponent of conspiracy theories but have abandoned that tack for several years now and accepted that so much more is explained by man's ignorance and psychological make-up. I am willing to learn. I do have strong opinions about what I have learned though.

You sound quite knowledgeable regarding finance and economics. I am a great fan of the Austrian theory of Economics, Lew Rockwell (for the most part), Libertarian philosophy and all those that contribute to it. We most likely have some contrary opinions on the subjects but I am not that well schooled in them and am not an economist by any stretch. I am looking forward to reading more from you.

This has been very interesting. Thanks.

I will look forward to reading more from both of you.

[GostHacked]

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/are.html

The Bank is not a government department and conducts its activities with considerable independence compared with most other federal institutions. For example:

Not a federal institution.

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/...loi_boc_bdc.pdf

The Minister of Finance is just entrusted the shares it seems, for the position is appointable, not electable. That trust gets transfered to the next minister. So no, he does not own anything.

Geoffry

I can tell you with 100% certainty that it's the Minister of Finance that owns 100% of it.

[geoffrey]

Yes, the share belongs to the Crown but because the Crown isn't any individual person in Canada (well, kind of), he just keeps it when he's Minister. The next Minister gets the share. That said, the Deputy Minister and the Minister himself have no voting power over the Board and the Board is completley independant of the government.

The government still owns 100% of the Bank of Canada though... it's not some secret collective of corporate interests. It's the Minister of Finance that holds the capital.

[jennie]

Yes, the share belongs to the Crown but because the Crown isn't any individual person in Canada (well, kind of), he just keeps it when he's Minister. The next Minister gets the share. That said, the Deputy Minister and the Minister himself have no voting power over the Board and the Board is completley independant of the government.

The government still owns 100% of the Bank of Canada though... it's not some secret collective of corporate interests. It's the Minister of Finance that holds the capital.

Who is on the Board?

that is where the power lies, right?

[geoffrey]

Who is on the Board?

that is where the power lies, right?

Board of Directors - http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/about/board.html

Governing Council - http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/about/council.html

Executive Management - http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/about/emc.html

Senior Management - http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/about/other_senior.html

[GostHacked]

Yes, the share belongs to the Crown but because the Crown isn't any individual person in Canada (well, kind of), he just keeps it when he's Minister. The next Minister gets the share. That said, the Deputy Minister and the Minister himself have no voting power over the Board and the Board is completley independant of the government.

The government still owns 100% of the Bank of Canada though... it's not some secret collective of corporate interests. It's the Minister of Finance that holds the capital.

I don't understand how a Crown Corporation is owned by the government but not controlled by the government. Does that make sense to you? It is almost like privatizing government.

[geoffrey]

I don't understand how a Crown Corporation is owned by the government but not controlled by the government. Does that make sense to you? It is almost like privatizing government.

It is a unique structure, isn't it?

Ultimately, the Finance Minister could pass a law firing the Board of Directors and seize control, but it wouldn't be prudent or responsible financially or politically. Until that happens, the Board will just appoint new people to the Board as needed. Works good.

[Pliny]

I don't understand how a Crown Corporation is owned by the government but not controlled by the government. Does that make sense to you? It is almost like privatizing government.

How can you make sense of it? Sorry, geoffery, that "it is a unique structure" does not explain it! Our government represents the Crown, not the people. I do not wish to infer that the Crown has treated it's citizens badly or that all is a sham. I merely wish to illustrate that the hierarchic structure is not as it seems, and for good reason. Perhaps I have said too much.

[Posit]

Our government is nothing more than a Crown corporation, complete with letters patent. The are there to "manage" us - to keep us from interfering with other corporations responsible for stealing resources and returning profits to the elite cadre.

The BNA was originally instituted for two very specific reasons. One was to protect resources and business interests from the economic manipulation of the US and the other was to form a military alliance that could defend their interests if the US decided to use greater force to gain access to our resources. Unfortunately over the years the US changed their tactics and now instead of stealing resources, or invading Canada they have taken to undermining the management of Canadian resource companies by buying controlling interests in publicly traded companies.

The original legal structure of Canada the Crown Corporation, hasn't changed. Everything else about us being a democratic nation,or that the government is here to look out for our best interests is a myth. I mean when was the last time Canada ever paid dividends to us on all the resource profits they collect? Instead we are charged with keeping the company afloat by having to continually invest our taxes in it while they spend wildly on building and maintaining infrastructure that pays directly to those corporations that control them.

[geoffrey]

I mean when was the last time Canada ever paid dividends to us on all the resource profits they collect?

Without Alberta oil royalties (and other resource royalties from elsewhere), your Federal income tax would be higher everywhere in Canada. We know it even more intimately in Alberta. The government could cut you a cheque and raise your taxes, but they'd rather simplify it. Bottom line, the resource industry current is the only thing keeping Canada's head above water.

By the way, Ralph sent us all a $400 Alberta prosperity bonus, paid for by increased oil revenues.

Why do you think you should get a share of the resource money anyways? What did you contribute to it's exploration or extraction? Throw some money in an oil company and you'll be rewarded for doing something in terms of developing resources.

Oil and gas and coal and trees in the ground are completely worthless.

[jennie]

Oil and gas and coal and trees in the ground are completely worthless.

You mean they are not worth MONEY in the ground.

They are part of the earth's living systems, which we do not understand well enough to sustain them ... sustain life ... on earth.

Did you think the earth was just a gift for capitalists to plunder?

I don't think so. The earth is a gift to sustain life.

However, the earth can only sustain our lives if we sustain the earth's life systems.

[geoffrey]

However, the earth can only sustain our lives if we sustain the earth's life systems.

Every tree that is pulled out is replace, at least one for one and often much more than that. Hence we now have denser forests than ever. Our fire suppression has done the same.

If you can explain to me how oil, gas and coal are any part of the Earth's "life systems," I'll be truly impressed.

It's the use and production of these resources that gives you the lifestyle you enjoy today. Canada is now primarily a resource development dependant nation.

[Pliny]

You mean they are not worth MONEY in the ground.

They are part of the earth's living systems, which we do not understand well enough to sustain them ... sustain life ... on earth.

Did you think the earth was just a gift for capitalists to plunder?

I don't think so. The earth is a gift to sustain life.

However, the earth can only sustain our lives if we sustain the earth's life systems.

They are worth nothing in the ground.

Yes, of course that's it. The earth is just a gift for capitalists to plunder and the rest of humanity just wish to live parasitically off the capitalist. If you think capitalists are a problem you should have seen the USSR and Poland before the fall of the iron curtain. Now there was an environmental disaster.

As a matter of fact, fly over Haiti and the Dominican Republic. It is almost as if the border on the map existed in reality. Guess which side is the greener? Then read which one has more security of private property(read Capitalism).

[Pliny]

The original legal structure of Canada the Crown Corporation, hasn't changed. Everything else about us being a democratic nation,or that the government is here to look out for our best interests is a myth. I mean when was the last time Canada ever paid dividends to us on all the resource profits they collect? Instead we are charged with keeping the company afloat by having to continually invest our taxes in it while they spend wildly on building and maintaining infrastructure that pays directly to those corporations that control them.

You may think the government isn't here to look after our interests but they have been doing so, although inefficiently and ineptly. They still allow us to keep 50% of our earnings and say it is for social justice programs (Read socialist engineering).

They could turn left wing communistic or right wing dictatorial at any time; that is the nature of government. Of course, they prefer there be order in society and attempt to legislate the engineering of society. All this with very little understanding of the psychological make-up of humanity.