National Public Transit Strategy

[blueblood]

I happen to believe the public transit and power grid announcement was good policy.

If my power bill goes up it won't be a good policy.

[geoffrey]

Me though, I'll chose to keep on polluting instead of getting sick from some foreigner coughing up on me on the C-Train. Not enough cash in it for me yet, $200 bucks? I'll drive.

And Parking is free?

Taxable benefit at my office, I pay cheap cheap. Like I said, the cost of me catching some illness on a cattle wagon they call a c-train is much higher than driving to work.

[jdobbin]

If my power bill goes up it won't be a good policy.

Your power bill will go up regardless unless you have converted to thermal heating and cooling. Everything is tied to oil and gas and they trend upwards always.

Likewise, I'm sure if your power goes off, you won't be happy either. An east-west power grid is supposed to help in that regard.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The North American power grid has been in existence for years. It was designed to benefit the industry, but in theory the end user gains benefit. The simple fact is that our power production in Canada is basically sold to the US. We supply more power than we use and our surplus goes south.

In Alberta we used to have the cheapest utility rates in Canada, that is no longer the case. Our rates have sky rocketed yet the cost of production has not. There is a lot of profit in energy production, and there is no doubt in my mind that is a trend that will continue.

With respect to mass transit; this is yet another program designed around urban sprawl. It is a net transfer of wealth from rural Canadians to urban Canadians. It would be nice to think that all Canadians would benefit but that is simply not the case. Having said that if you really want to make public transit functional I would suggest that you ban private vehicles from the downtown areas altogether and force the public to utilize the system or take a cab. As it is parking lots do not pay sufficient taxation, and the amount of pollution would be minimized.

[Saturn]

With respect to mass transit; this is yet another program designed around urban sprawl. It is a net transfer of wealth from rural Canadians to urban Canadians.

There is no transfer of wealth from rural Canadians to urban Canadians. Quite the opposite, there is substantial wealth transfer the other way around. The cities are the engines of the economy and produce far more wealth per capita than rural communities do. A big chunk of this wealth goes to the provinces and the feds, who then use it to pay for services in rural areas.

It would be nice to think that all Canadians would benefit but that is simply not the case.

When cities benefit, they generate more wealth to be distributed to rural areas. All Canadians benefit.

[Mad_Michael]

sorry, error post.

[Mad_Michael]

With respect to mass transit; this is yet another program designed around urban sprawl. It is a net transfer of wealth from rural Canadians to urban Canadians. It would be nice to think that all Canadians would benefit but that is simply not the case. Having said that if you really want to make public transit functional I would suggest that you ban private vehicles from the downtown areas altogether and force the public to utilize the system or take a cab. As it is parking lots do not pay sufficient taxation, and the amount of pollution would be minimized.

While I agree that the Spadina/YorkU subway extension does contribute to urban sprawl, your assertion that there is some kind of "net transfer of wealth from rural to urban" here is outrageous.

First of all, the rural farmland is sold at very high prices to urban interests. That transfers wealth from urban to rural.

Secondly, 905 belt land is hardly rural.

Thirdly, the tax structure of Ontario is predicated upon using tax revenues collected in Toronto to subsidize schools in Thunder Bay. Toronto suffers a $10 billion tax loss per year, of which rural Ontario (and Quebec and the Altantic Provinces) consume.

So, please feel free to outline exactly how this particular policy issue constitutes a "net transfer" of wealth from rural to urban. I await your explication.

[geoffrey]

In Alberta we used to have the cheapest utility rates in Canada, that is no longer the case. Our rates have sky rocketed yet the cost of production has not. There is a lot of profit in energy production, and there is no doubt in my mind that is a trend that will continue.

Look at your distributors if you want to see who's making the big bucks.

Enmax

Epcor

From someone in the industry.

Generation and transmission are regulated and they operate at around 8% ROE, higher they have to pay it back to the ratepayers. You can find the various agreements on the EUB website. 8% ROE isn't skyrocketing returns...

But if you look at Enmax and Epcor, you'll see much different numbers.

[blueblood]

If my power bill goes up it won't be a good policy.

Your power bill will go up regardless unless you have converted to thermal heating and cooling. Everything is tied to oil and gas and they trend upwards always.

Likewise, I'm sure if your power goes off, you won't be happy either. An east-west power grid is supposed to help in that regard.

I'm already on geothermal heating and cooling, power bill took a nosedive even though I'm paying the friggin thing off. Manitoba Hydro has a sweet deal for that, you should hop on board (providing your home isn't energy efficient). If we go out to Ontario to where the demand is, I'm worrying about my electric bill going up faster than it should.

[guyser]

I'm already on geothermal heating and cooling, power bill took a nosedive even though I'm paying the friggin thing off. Manitoba Hydro has a sweet deal for that, you should hop on board (providing your home isn't energy efficient). If we go out to Ontario to where the demand is, I'm worrying about my electric bill going up faster than it should.

Do you have a ground source heating system? Is that the same? Pardon my rudeness but could you give me a rough estimate of cost to install, to run and where about s are you ?

I am currently entertaining ideas of what to do at my cottage in the future. I love groundsource, but pretty sure som small thing called the Canadian Shield might prevent me from doing that.

[blueblood]

I'm already on geothermal heating and cooling, power bill took a nosedive even though I'm paying the friggin thing off. Manitoba Hydro has a sweet deal for that, you should hop on board (providing your home isn't energy efficient). If we go out to Ontario to where the demand is, I'm worrying about my electric bill going up faster than it should.

Do you have a ground source heating system? Is that the same? Pardon my rudeness but could you give me a rough estimate of cost to install, to run and where about s are you ?

I am currently entertaining ideas of what to do at my cottage in the future. I love groundsource, but pretty sure som small thing called the Canadian Shield might prevent me from doing that.

Yah it's the same, it's got water pipes underground circulating water if we're on the same page. I've got a soft clay field instead of rock mind you. It's about 12 grand to install but Manitoba Hydro has a program where they subsidize it and you pay installments on your hydro bill. For me even though paying the installments, the bill is still cheaper than without it, mind you I live in an energy inefficient house. If your cottage is energy efficient, then it might not be that good of an idea. It also doubles as an air conditioner.

[guyser]

Yah it's the same, it's got water pipes underground circulating water if we're on the same page. I've got a soft clay field instead of rock mind you. It's about 12 grand to install but Manitoba Hydro has a program where they subsidize it and you pay installments on your hydro bill. For me even though paying the installments, the bill is still cheaper than without it, mind you I live in an energy inefficient house. If your cottage is energy efficient, then it might not be that good of an idea. It also doubles as an air conditioner.

Yup on the same page. Thank you for your reply. What do you use for warming the air up? Is there a small on demand heater for that. I understand that ground temps remain at 7C no matter where you are once you go below 5 metres.

Having clay is ideal. No drilling per se, just water blasts to make the whole? How far do they go down, am I close in thinking it is around 30M?

My quotes are considerably more expensive as there can be no guarantee the line they are drilling will miss any rock and would have to start over. So far I can expect to pay $20-$25,000 if all goes well. This is the main reason I do not see it as economical. Oh nad my cottage is woefully insulated. But I do no use it all that much in the winter because of the water problem and insulating that. Just crank up the airtight and wait for the warmth .

[blueblood]

It's funny how it works, something about it recirculating can warm things up quite a bit. That water in those pipes can get pretty hot from the ground. No alternate heater is needed. The water from the pipes warms the air up, a fan shoots the hot air through the ducts and warms the house up.

For me space isn't an issue so I don't have it drilled to deep per say, it sprawls out.

Insulating isn't that bad of a job, just time. But if your going to throw this in there, I suggest spending a lot of time in your cottage. Plus you get AC in the summer time. the fact that you don't have a program with Ontario hydro sucks though.

[jdobbin]

The North American power grid has been in existence for years. It was designed to benefit the industry, but in theory the end user gains benefit. The simple fact is that our power production in Canada is basically sold to the US. We supply more power than we use and our surplus goes south.

In Alberta we used to have the cheapest utility rates in Canada, that is no longer the case. Our rates have sky rocketed yet the cost of production has not. There is a lot of profit in energy production, and there is no doubt in my mind that is a trend that will continue.

With respect to mass transit; this is yet another program designed around urban sprawl. It is a net transfer of wealth from rural Canadians to urban Canadians. It would be nice to think that all Canadians would benefit but that is simply not the case. Having said that if you really want to make public transit functional I would suggest that you ban private vehicles from the downtown areas altogether and force the public to utilize the system or take a cab. As it is parking lots do not pay sufficient taxation, and the amount of pollution would be minimized.

The power grid was indeed created for the export market. I have no idea about Alberta's provincial market rates. Do you have a cite that explains what happened?

As far as regarding mass transit as a transfer from rural areas to urban area, do you have figures for that? Since most Canadians live in urban areas, it stands to reason that urban taxpayers will pay the most.

[jdobbin]

I'm already on geothermal heating and cooling, power bill took a nosedive even though I'm paying the friggin thing off. Manitoba Hydro has a sweet deal for that, you should hop on board (providing your home isn't energy efficient). If we go out to Ontario to where the demand is, I'm worrying about my electric bill going up faster than it should.

Gas was the component of the energy bill that will likely continue to rise in part because of the huge demand from the south. The hydro component is more stable.

It makes your decision to go with thermal heating and cooling a brilliant one. Although it is an expensive outlay, it has long term value for you. It is decision that people will rarely regret.

I'm fairly certain that hydro bills will continue to be stable. Manitoba will not build a dam on spec. They will ensure there are customers for it as well as a long term plan to finance the project.

I just bought my house two years ago and have spent thousands on redoing plumbing and electric. Some of my next investment will be on energy efficiency. Most important step prior to going for thermal heating.

I am particularly heartened that Winnipeg's new subdivision will have a large part of it built with geo thermal heating. It is excellent value and is good for the consumer as well as the utility.