is religon trying to take over government?

[DarkAngel_]

Although I said I believe faith is a necessity in life, I never once said doubt was unnecessary.

Anyways, the Columbus thing was about something interesting I had read not so long ago in a book on historical myths. I remember being taught and reading that Columbus was discouraged from crossing the ocean because he would fall off the edge of the world. Apparently this was not true at all, as scholars had already decided long before that the earth was round. The real argument was that Columbus underestimated the distance across the ocean. And they were right! Pretty interesting huh!

yes but i saw that you may have no doubt that your right. i fear only that you will not question it.

how about this, we answer eachother questions, i'll ask you 3 and you can ask me 3, and you can answer based on faith, and i'll answer you based on curiosity.

1.why do i exist?

2.why is there something instead of nothing?

3.what words must i speak to qet my ultimate question?

your turn...

and about columbus, i saw a movie on that, a while back, i'm not an american history buff but i'm good with myths. my point was, and i quote this from a great freind of mine in victoria,"history is just a set of events we've agreed upon." columbus was most likely discouraged by those closest to him, professionaly and personaly. also i found that the first records of the world being 'flat' was written by scholars and monks of the cathlic church. and as i see it your right, scientificly

so i geuss a giant leap is needed once in awhile, but no religon has made this giant step. so i need to know who men follow philisophicly. men or gods? and i have an answer somewhat, but no one has said they follow gods, so my question is not completely answered.

[Rue]

1.why do i exist?

You are the only one who can answer that question. I personally believe we choose to be born and use our existence as a platform of experiences to learn lessons.

2.why is there something instead of nothing?

The combined sum of all or the alpha and omega can not be defined so easily as all or nothing-it defies constructs that our human mind uses to measure and reference things. It is probably why in the Bible God is quoted as describing itself as " I am because I am ".

Some would tell you there neither is or is not, and what you experience is what you choose to create and experience so that you can learn but it is all an illusion or what you make of it so it is both everything and nothing at all, at the same time. If that confuses you think of basic physics, for every action, there is a counter-reaction-balance or harmony comes about from the seemingly polar opposites. The trilogy in Christianity (Father, son, holy ghost) is a play on the trilogy some refer to as dialectics (thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis) or others refer to as the yin and the yang or the id and the ago, eros and thanitos,or the conscious and the subconscious or woman and man or good and evil. It would appear through the clash of extremes, understandings/harmony/balance is supposed to come about.

3.what words must i speak to qet my ultimate question?

Words are just words. You have to transcend bust the noise you call words and get to a point

where you perceive things without the need for words. People who learn to meditate often die without finding their ultimate questions, others supposedly learn to meditate and get to a place inside their mind where they can conceive of such answers.

However, the fact that you are looking outside yourself for questions you should be asking yourself alone, is interesting.

Why not spend some time with yourself and stop looking for people to answer what only you can answer for yourself?

Start with a walk alone and unclutter your mind of day to day thoughts and noise. Try empty your head of any questions, worries, anxiety.

Now as for the other portion of this debate. I personally think nothing good comes from organized religion mixing with the state and politics. I personally believe faith should be an individual and private thing.

That said I chuckle when I hear some people say faith is a bad thing. We all need to believe in something and we all do. Figleaf is a classic example of someone full of faith as to his being right and others wrong.

Faith is what keeps people alive or what gets them through bad times. It is the fuel and essence of existence. It is like the pilot light in a furnace.

Extinguish a person's faith, you take away their reason to exist and they wither and die. Spend some time with chronically ill people or abused people and you will understand this.

I have faith. I just don't feel the need to tell you what it is exactly. I prefer to keep what it means for me, private. I would say faith for me is what makes me humble or not think I am better then anyone else. It is what makes me want to keep my big mouth shut if I am tempted to lecture people on my personal faith as opposed to faith in general.

I admire the faith beliefs of many people. I have witnessed faith ceremonies in many settings, i.e., from Taoists, Bhuddists, Shaymen, Pagans, Christians, Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, HIndus, Christians, Jews, Muslims.

I try respect it when it is expressed by others although I get uncomfortable if someone tries to shove it down my throat and tell me it is the only way.

To me there is no one way to have faith.

[DarkAngel_]

1.why do i exist?

You are the only one who can answer that question. I personally believe we choose to be born and use our existence as a platform of experiences to learn lessons.

2.why is there something instead of nothing?

The combined sum of all or the alpha and omega can not be defined so easily as all or nothing-it defies constructs that our human mind uses to measure and reference things. It is probably why in the Bible God is quoted as describing itself as " I am because I am ".

Some would tell you there neither is or is not, and what you experience is what you choose to create and experience so that you can learn but it is all an illusion or what you make of it so it is both everything and nothing at all, at the same time. If that confuses you think of basic physics, for every action, there is a counter-reaction-balance or harmony comes about from the seemingly polar opposites. The trilogy in Christianity (Father, son, holy ghost) is a play on the trilogy some refer to as dialectics (thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis) or others refer to as the yin and the yang or the id and the ago, eros and thanitos,or the conscious and the subconscious or woman and man or good and evil. It would appear through the clash of extremes, understandings/harmony/balance is supposed to come about.

3.what words must i speak to qet my ultimate question?

Words are just words. You have to transcend bust the noise you call words and get to a point

where you perceive things without the need for words. People who learn to meditate often die without finding their ultimate questions, others supposedly learn to meditate and get to a place inside their mind where they can conceive of such answers.

However, the fact that you are looking outside yourself for questions you should be asking yourself alone, is interesting.

Why not spend some time with yourself and stop looking for people to answer what only you can answer for yourself?

Start with a walk alone and unclutter your mind of day to day thoughts and noise. Try empty your head of any questions, worries, anxiety.

Now as for the other portion of this debate. I personally think nothing good comes from organized religion mixing with the state and politics. I personally believe faith should be an individual and private thing.

That said I chuckle when I hear some people say faith is a bad thing. We all need to believe in something and we all do. Figleaf is a classic example of someone full of faith as to his being right and others wrong.

Faith is what keeps people alive or what gets them through bad times. It is the fuel and essence of existence. It is like the pilot light in a furnace.

Extinguish a person's faith, you take away their reason to exist and they wither and die. Spend some time with chronically ill people or abused people and you will understand this.

I have faith. I just don't feel the need to tell you what it is exactly. I prefer to keep what it means for me, private. I would say faith for me is what makes me humble or not think I am better then anyone else. It is what makes me want to keep my big mouth shut if I am tempted to lecture people on my personal faith as opposed to faith in general.

I admire the faith beliefs of many people. I have witnessed faith ceremonies in many settings, i.e., from Taoists, Bhuddists, Shaymen, Pagans, Christians, Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, HIndus, Christians, Jews, Muslims.

I try respect it when it is expressed by others although I get uncomfortable if someone tries to shove it down my throat and tell me it is the only way.

To me there is no one way to have faith.

well, i did try to find it on my own, i was a Bahá'í for 3 years, and i had sat for days in contimpation, playing events in my mind and finding my response, to see if i could dwell into the emotion, find it's image and tie it to my senses. i woke up every morning at 5, watched the sun rise, and was sure to have good sleep, i walked about 40-60 miles a day in all, observing things around me, trying to understand, i induced dreams to see what my subconsciousness had projected, it was very hard, but i tryed pain training, and i noticed that the more you hurt, the more pain is detectable in all parts of your body. i could not meditate, i was unable too, and i do not know how, but i did paint and write alot, i read history books, and studied science, i read only some of the bible, and was readind hamlet, only part 3 though, i prayed 12 times a day, my Bahá'í teacher told me it was 'an appeal to my faith, to control myself.' i found that my own mind had sadness and anger, and tryed then to solve my problums, i went 'mad' i geuss is the term. but now i must see outside again, i was in my room most of this year and was kicked out of school, i need to see what all human kind think, above that is what in truth their is, our minds do not 'make' reality, but we make our reality out of reality, in any paradox, their is always at least 2 ties into sub-space, it's begining and end, but both are true' the other features are distortions into space, as is our peseption of that reality, so are you saying we are a paradox? if so i agree, but there is no tie to man and reality except that we are real. space is more matter over mind then the other way around, and my mind has told me i am running in a circle in my head if i try to find it without 'looking' outside,

space is the final place that we must go to find ourselves, though we are here and we have created a reason for existance, it is not true, as true to others as it may be. i have no faith in my doing so, that i reject what man has said. but i am not to just sit and wait, i need an answer even if it takes me all of my life. if their is a god that wishes to be beleived in, if we did not then would he not die? i beleive we all wish something higher is watching us, but if we stop beleiving will people panic and rush to burnings and hangings as they did? i do not trust in a god that is a phantom, a scielent screamer claiming out words of dieties and men making them so, the earth is our home, and we are not yet ready to leave, but what will we tell our kids? that we killed in the names of gods because those men where bad? schools may not say it, but parents do, and at times can be quite extreme. i have no 'poor out' in my atheism, and i aslo injoy other faiths, but bad men AND women are at play and the world may need to endure them too harshly, and my paranoia is setting in, but in the end faiths will end, like a hot fire to coals, my question in the end is, men or gods?

why must mankind be so private in that? i have no ridicul for those who would follow gods, i just need to know your opinion. and i think you for your words before, i will take some days and find more in me that may be real in this madness, and please excuse my outrage, my little brother is being tought, and has been tought from a very young age what to beleive, and i wish they could decide on their own, without major influinces from people who will not keep their mouth shut because they are condesending in their beleif.

and if it's that private, why would you fight for it? i cannot harm it, and will not, faith is sacred to me as well, but it is not essencial to me.

[Destroyer]

"does religon want the world?

is atheism a religon and is it trying as well?

is atheism the neutral ground between all faiths?

should their be a neutral ground between faiths?

is religon being the government (or controling it in any way), right?"

1. Yes

2. Yes/No..

3. No

4. No

5. Yes (look at George Bush and the Taliban)

[DarkAngel_]

is religon being the government (or controling it in any way), right?"

5. Yes (look at George Bush and the Taliban)

How funny!! you read it wrong, my mistake, i should have said, 'is it right to let religon control government...' my bad.