letter from Jacqueline House- 6Nations

Bluejay · August 11, 2006

Hello everyone!

I found this message board by accident and happy that I did! My name is Bluejay and I have been helping the 6Nations spokeswoman, Jacqueline House, with press, letters, and getting information out across the net. She and I have worked so very hard trying to get accurate info. out which has proven interesting since I am in Montana and she is in Caledonia!! But, where there is a will, there is a way.

Just so you all know a bit about who I am.... I am a writer and deal with Native issues, environmental and wildlife protection issues as well. My Grandfather LaVay was Mneconjou Lakota and Saskatchewn Cree...rest of me is Irish

So there ya' go! I look forward to meeting and getting to know ALL of you here!

I wanted to share a letter from Jacqueline that I posted just today and began sending to the leadership in Canada. Thought it might give some perspective on how the 6Nations people are struggling with the Caledonia residents right now as well as some background on Judge Marshall.

Blessings to you all,

Bluejay

August 10, 2006

Scano

As you all know Tuesday August 8th was a stressful time for us at

Kanastaton. We were robbed of our fate once again by Judge David Marshall,

who forgot what it is like to be On gwa hoh weh as he lost site of who he is

a long time ago. Though he is not blood, he has the knowledge of knowing

what we endured for many endless years from the constant attacks of the

government through the stealing of our land. A part of the education

process of our past is educating all of us and reminding us of who we are.

Believe it or not but Judge Marshall is a tiny part of that past as well as

the people of Caledonia.

David Marshall started out at one time with the passion of caring for others

as he practiced being a doctor to some of our people. Our elders remember

this man and talk of him as if he were someone else. He understood our ways

and we trusted in him, so when we asked him to step down we thought he would

consider and reflect back of the past as he states in his book written in

2002 that he is, “an Honorary Chief to the Six Nations” and knows what this

means to be adopted into our Nation. He represented some of our people a

long time ago and walked them through the legal aspect of law as he studied

and practiced being a lawyer. What he at one time meant to some is not

forgotten and today he reminds them of what once was is no longer, in his

eyes. He knew the moment he served and enforced his injunction that he was

not only going against his own people but Her Majesty as well and make no

mistake he knows of the Treaties that entwine our justice. He had the

opportunity to study our people when they trusted him and spoke to him while

he listened to the many stories being told, who knew that someday he would

use to manipulate our traditions. I fully understand how those that are

accused of a crime they have not committed get locked up sometime for years

before the courts realize they made a mistake but who punishes those with

the mallet in their hands for the life they stole away, or is this part of,

“Rule of Law?”

And as far as the people of Caledonia, they too got to know our elders with

the understanding and respect of who we are and what we contributed to the

outside world, so that they could live free. I know there are a few of you

that is left so I am asking you to do the right thing by stepping up and

start teaching your people the importance of respecting and acknowledging

our Treaties. Our fight is not with the people of Caledonia, but those new

and ignorant to our past is trying to make it this way. When I read in the

paper how scared and frightened some people are, I ask, “for what?” They

don’t have the threat of the Army coming in on their loved ones and money is

not everything, lives are and how the lives get taken. But someday their

lays the deathbed and the sins we commit, we will have to answer. As a child

growing up with respect, honesty and trust, I believe what we are taught,

“When you lie, you are only lying to yourself!”

Yesterday my youngest daughter asked what Prejudice meant. Here’s what I

told her. “When you seen the way some of the Caledonia residence were

acting, that is Prejudice.” If they were looking for justice then they would

not be directing it at us and calling us names because of the color of our

skin and demanding us off land that we have title to. They wouldn’t be

throwing rocks, golf balls at us, nor tearing down our flags. That is

hateful behavior and that is what it is to be Prejudice. “Do not let your

heart fill with these kind of ugly feelings and allow them to change you for

who you are inside because the Creator made all of us and for you to turn

against any mans color would be saying the Creator did wrong and that we

know he didn’t.”

“He put us here to care and respect one another’s ways and that we must do

because everyone is entitled to feel the way they choose to as he never made

us this way, we are taught!”

As I sit back and reflect at what I see and hear, I am amazed that when I

study those people with their hateful ways and their cries to get what they

want, I have to shake my head and say to myself. “Teach your children

whether they are 12, 19, and 30 years old to learn respect. They have no

business interfering with justice and if they want to help, stay out of

conflict, don’t put them in it. We have every right to be standing up for

our inherent rights and if it weren’t for us, you would not be here above

all living free. If it were any of my children I would be telling them to

mind there own business and stop corrupting the rest of the town by

instigating trouble. To me this is the behavior of dictatorship, as those

vile words spill out to say they want to have power as they cry out, “White

Power.” I feel for those that are encouraging their children to be bullies

and hateful by pushing them to become just as ugly. Look at yourself in the

mirror and search inside of yourself. Who are you?

When our men get out of hand, it is us women that lock arms and ask our men

to step back and because they respect us, they do. Not because we are scared

but because we are better for not allowing change to happen to us, as this

has already been done to our people when that outside stripped us of natural

ways of living and forced us to learn a foreign language. If one had to

endure all the hardship our people have had to deal with and all the changes

you tell me if today you would willingly walk off the land? So what I am

saying to you that have your children, boys, so called men out there, teach

them something but only if you love them. We are not asking for a lot other

than respect us who we are and help us correct the wrongdoings done to us.

When it comes to law, before you try further cram the Rules of law down our

throats, practice them yourself! Marie Trainer has incited hate crimes to

happen; infact, she encouraged this to happen. Tune into Peace and

Solidarity with Six Nations and you will see how she incites this to go on

and because you are law biding citizens, charge her. And what about the hand

made sign on someone’s yard that says, “bring in the Army,” these are acts

of Terrorism. Who is being charged for burning our flags and ripping them

down and who is looking into it for the so call justice? My words to you

are, “take a long hard look at reality and stop living in a fairytale world

because the truth is we are here to stay, whether you approve/like or not.

The fact that you fly your Canadian Flag enlightens me as Canada does not

exist as a country without us and those flags that you are so proud of, find

the reason why you are proud of them as they represent us, On gwa hon weh

(True People) and most importantly respect the Anthem, “Oh Canada, your home

on native land. So feel free to fly as many flags as you want, I love it!

Nya weh

Always Jacqueline

Who's Doing What? · August 11, 2006

We were robbed of our fate once again

This comment would have put this letter in my garbage can if it were on paper.

Robbed????

Fate????

ok Whatever?

The Natives might want to take some of their own advice.

“take a long hard look at reality and stop living in a fairytale world
because the truth is we are here to stay, whether you approve/like or not.

Couldn't have said it better lady.

Jerry J. Fortin · August 11, 2006

I am always willing to debate the issues, I am a reasonable man. I ask the author of this thread to explain to me how it is that land that was surrendered to the crown by representatives of the natives with complete and verifiable documentation can now become subject of a disputed claim.

The peoples that are making this claim against the government migrated here to Canada after the American Revolution and were granted the use of the land for hunting purposes by Royal Proclaimation. Nowhere in that proclaimation is there any evidence of sovereignty granted to the natives, and it was specifically written to prevent non-native citizens from entering into land transactions because of past abuses. Land titles could only be transfered from the tribal owners to the government, and this was done in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Proclaimation in public meetings.

I find this dispute before our court system an affront to logic and it is without doubt an outrageous position for the natives to be demanding a trillion dollars in compensation for claimed loses. Please convince me that the natives have a valid case because all evidence is to the contrary and would lead any reasonable person to believe that this case has no legal or moral foundation at all.

NativeCharm · August 11, 2006

BLUEJAY:

Firstly, I'd like to say WELCOME, or TAWOW ( in my language, Cree)

I think it's fantastic that you stumbled upon us and look forward to the things you have to share. I must forwarn you that a "MAJORITY" of the non_Native posters here are exuding an enormous level of racism, ignorance and plain prejudice. HOWEVER, there are many that have offered an open mind and are actually willing to listen and discuss varied views on our issues, which is the only reason I am still here. Often it has become very disheartening to learn how much the racism is still alive today and no matter what positive things we share on behalf of our people, many are attempting to dismantle all or any of this. It is my hope that through the sharing of education, historical facts and open ears and minds that we can overcome this sad state of affairs which is igniting much of the hostility we are witnessing today.

I thank you (AIY HIY) for your bravery and your committment to the advancement of our people's.

Respectively, Charm

Riverwind · August 11, 2006

I must forwarn you that a "MAJORITY" of the non_Native posters here are exuding an enormous level of racism, ignorance and plain prejudice. HOWEVER, there are many that have offered an open mind and are actually willing to listen and discuss varied views on our issues, which is the only reason I am still here.

These issues will never be resolved until people on both sides are willing to listen and learn. I agree an open mind is essential. I also feel that anyone who dismisses an argument that they disagree with as "racist" is someone that has an extremely closed mind and is not willing to listen and learn. Anyone who approaches this discussion with the attitude that they only they know the "truth" and that they must educate others in this "truth" does not have an open mind.

Six Nations and other native groups have many legitimate grievances with the way their peoples have been treated in the past. However, the overwhelming majority of the 30 million Canadians living today had nothing to do with this mistreatment and should not be expected to make huge sacrifices in order to 'correct' these injustices of the past. Native activists must recognize that the 30 million non-native Canadians have as much right to this land as any native person. Refusing to recognize that fact will simply ensure that no resolution and reconciliation between natives and non-natives will ever happen.

Bluejay · August 11, 2006

TAWOW ( in my language, Cree) Hau Mita Kola, (hello my friend) Apetu Yuwakape (blessed day to you!) Lakota language back to your Cree

HOWEVER, there are many that have offered an open mind and are actually willing to listen and discuss varied views on our issues, which is the only reason I am still here. Often it has become very disheartening to learn how much the racism is still alive today and no matter what positive things we share on behalf of our people, many are attempting to dismantle all or any of this. It is my hope that through the sharing of education, historical facts and open ears and minds that we can overcome this sad state of affairs which is igniting much of the hostility we are witnessing today.

My friend, there will always be some who refuse to listen and try to undersatnd another culture. But thankfully, there are as well, those who will at least give SOME effort to trying to understand another position. I am glad you are here too, to stand for what our People know is truth.

I thank you (AIY HIY) for your bravery and your committment to the advancement of our people's.

and I acknowledge your courage and committment to you as well. I cannot tell you the HUNDREDS of hours I have spent along side this issue trying my best to present the real facts. Glad to know you are here, and we will make this be "Mamao atoskeyw kamik"

Bluejay

FTA Lawyer · August 11, 2006

BLUEJAY:
Firstly, I'd like to say WELCOME, or TAWOW ( in my language, Cree)

I think it's fantastic that you stumbled upon us and look forward to the things you have to share. I must forwarn you that a "MAJORITY" of the non_Native posters here are exuding an enormous level of racism, ignorance and plain prejudice. HOWEVER, there are many that have offered an open mind and are actually willing to listen and discuss varied views on our issues, which is the only reason I am still here. Often it has become very disheartening to learn how much the racism is still alive today and no matter what positive things we share on behalf of our people, many are attempting to dismantle all or any of this. It is my hope that through the sharing of education, historical facts and open ears and minds that we can overcome this sad state of affairs which is igniting much of the hostility we are witnessing today.

I thank you (AIY HIY) for your bravery and your committment to the advancement of our people's.

Respectively, Charm

Bluejay,

Sorry, I'm unilingual, so all I can say is Welcome...

I take some exception with Charm's opening remarks. I'll grant that a number of "non-natives" are demonstrating some level of ignorance and consequently what comes across as prejudice...but racism is unfair for most. Being racist in the context suggested imports intent and as you can imagine if someone is ignorant (i.e. uninformed) they may present as prejudiced in spite of the fact that they hold no racist beleifs.

My criticism is that a number of the "natives" repreatedly shout ignorance...and make no attempt to inform. I hope that you will take the approach of strongly advancing your views, but actually helping people who don't know the facts or nuances of an issue to learn them...not just tell them over and over that they are ignorant.

I jumped into the various Six Nations threads by saying that I spent hours reading up on the history of the dispute and stating that in my view Canada should not be fighting this fight as I saw considerable merit in the Confederacy's claim to the lands in question as well as considerable merit for the proposition that they were allies and not subjects of the Crown.

The response I got from one native poster was basically to be told that he didn't ask for my opinion, didn't want to hear what I had to say and indeed told me I had no idea what I was talking about and that the natives had plenty of lawyers far better than me so I should mind my own business.

When I expressed surprise and dismay at this response...not a single other "native" poster bothered to even comment. Given that I was supporting their position I was completely dumbfounded.

All I ask is that you have the same open mind that you hope to find here and I'll be glad to have you around.

FTA

SickandTired · August 11, 2006

I jumped into the various Six Nations threads by saying that I spent hours reading up on the history of the dispute and stating that in my view Canada should not be fighting this fight as I saw considerable merit in the Confederacy's claim to the lands in question as well as considerable merit for the proposition that they were allies and not subjects of the Crown.

FTA, I as well have spent hours reading the history and have not come to the same conclusion as you mention. I would be curious to read some of your research that indicates that the Plank Road Lands, which Douglas Creek Estates is part of (1/2 mile on either side of the Plank Road for 6 miles on either side of the Grand River), were not part of a valid land surrender. If you could forward any links that support that position, it would be appreciated...as I have not found a lot in my quest for both sides of the issue...

Here are a couple of sources of information that I have read (FYI)...

http://www.citizensofcaledonia.ca/PDFDocum...imResearch2.pdf (someone's listing of a bunch of Google links)

http://www.citizensofcaledonia.ca/PDFDocum...FileNo40695.pdf (a review of the Six Nations claims and the government's Statement of Defence to those claims)

NativeCharm · August 11, 2006

FTA, I had made a post indicating that not all of us were of that opinion from the native poster you are referring to. I for one, appreciate the legal views you have expressed and am grateful for the knowledge you are sharing

Aiy Hiy, Chi Meegwetch!

Bluejay · August 12, 2006

Jerry wrote- I ask the author of this thread to explain to me how it is that land that was surrendered to the crown by representatives of the natives with complete and verifiable documentation can now become subject of a disputed claim.

Jerry, I would be more than happy to share from what knowledge I have of these things. I do not take offense to your asking these things nor do I think you are alone in your position on this. If anything, I think this is the biggest question that most Non-native people (and even some Native people!) have about this issue. Let me write up what basic information I have about this and I will post it back here in the forum. Sometimes, it takes me a bit of time to get back through hundreds of "papers" in my emails to be able to pull out what is needed and what is not...so be patient with me, and I will be happy to share what information I do have.

I assure you, there is amassed a great deal of information about this land claim. And I would ask everyone to remember this part of Native approach to "land issues" because this is another primary reason that we cannot seem to reach understanding between our races. We did not live in one geographic area though one area might be felt to be more "home" than others. We saw no "lines" drawn upon the Earth where one "ownership" met up with another. We did not think that way. There has been a drastic change in the way that our People had to learn these things about the new way and the new laws. This is still a major difference between us.

One man recently attacked me in another group about how these "treaties" were made 200 years ago...he said, "We live in the NOW not the the 'then' and so should all those Indians."

To this comment, I tried my best to focus on how differently WE look at the agreements made and how the Non-Native people looked at and still DO look at these agreements. When the People gave their word on the Two Row Wampum, in using the Sacred Pipe, or any other "Sacred" means of making a promise? That promise was made involving the Creator and based within our Spiritual beliefs as well. Those kinds of agreements were NEVER to be broken because they were placed alongside a SACRED promise. That is why there have been SO many Indigenous people across the USA and Canada (and worldwide) that have been shocked and dismayed at the breaking of these promises. The misunderstanding of anothers cultural ways, the language barriers, the spiritual differences have all aided to the confusion. After hundreds of years of the non-native people saying and doing ONE thing and then breaking that vow and doing totally different things? Of course there is confusion, anger and mistrust. Why would there not be.

All I ask is that we try and acknowledge that OUR way is so very different than the non-native way. In trying to understand that, I think we can forge a good path ahead.

Ok, enough rambling here :rolleyes: I will share the Treaty info as soon as I can round it up for you.

Pilamaye (thank you) for asking these vital questions and allowing me to share what I know of the answer.

Blessings to you Jerry,

Bluejay

cybercoma · August 12, 2006

What I would honestly like to know is what the native peoples involved hope to accomplish? Do they want to evacuate all these residents from their homes? Do they just want compensation from the government for the land? What is it that they want?

The people of Caledonia call that land home and after a century of use by Canada and those citizens, I honestly think it would be quite unfair to expect that it be given back now.

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

Those kinds of agreements were NEVER to be broken because they were placed alongside a SACRED promise.

Keeping this SACRED promise could cost $1 trillion dollars. This would mean that Canadians living today would have to pay a huge tax increase -> for example even if we doubled the GST to 12% it would still take 40 years to pay it. It is simply not reasonable to expect 30 million people to sacrifice so much for the 22,000 people living on Six Nations reserve today.

In other words, don't expect any sympathy from non-natives who understand the potential costs of your demands. That said, I think many people would like to reconcile past wrongs with the needs of the present and that means that many people would like negotiate a fair compromise with Six Nations. However, this fair compromise must be based on what makes sense for both sides today and must not be based on what was theoretically promised 200 years ago.

Are you willing to acknowledge that any fair resolution must start with Six Nations dropping all claims on land that is privately owned today and that any cash compensation must not impose an unreasonable burden on the Canadian taxpayer?

Bluejay · August 12, 2006

You asked- What I would honestly like to know is what the native peoples involved hope to accomplish? Do they want to evacuate all these residents from their homes? Do they just want compensation from the government for the land? What is it that they want?

My friend.... I can only answer from what I know of SOME of the negotiations that have been taking place. So what I share here in response to you is limited only to what I have been told and I share from my personal perspective alone....

No, I don't believe that 6Nations is wanting to remove people from the homes they have all ready been living in, that are not part of the NEW Douglas Creek Estates. I don't think that 6Nations dishonors the fact that there have been Caledonian people right beside them for quite some time. What the main crux of this is about is the broken agreements that are CURRENT! We all seem to be focused only on the 200 year old treaties and agreements made back then. WRONG! That is only a part of this issue and the reference back to the treaties is needed to prove original ownership. How about all the leases and binding contracts that have been made in current times...using current law and binding contracts in place between two parties? I guess the best way to share what the 6Nations perspective is, is to share a letter to the Editor that I shared a while back. I will post it at the end of this message to you. Perhaps that will help in understanding what some of this battle is about.

We all as current citizens of this planet have come to trust our laws, rules and governments to abide by established ways of doing "business." But what happens when one party does not honor any of the current laws? Well, one side sues the other, they argue things in court and such...until the damaged party is paid in full for whatever the contract was for. Yes?

I think THAT is the primary issue involved here. Henco industries KNEW that the land was in dispute before they EVER went onto the land and began building. That is not the 6Nations people's fault...it is the Governing officials there in Canada who allowed this. Seems to me that we should perhaps quit fighting against each other, and begin looking into some of the "hidden government" deals that seem like private agreements made that really were illegally done. 6Nations representatives did NOT agree to the Henco moves and as such, there is a problem. I believe with all my heart that there are ways to work through this if we simply acknowledge that ALL of us would want current, binding contracts honored. The railroad and others owe a great deal of money to the 6Nations people in lease agreements that have not been honored. These are the CURRENT legal disputes....not old treaties. 6Nations people are astonished and angry that tons of money would be spent out of Canadian govt. funds to "buy back" the land and pay off the developer. That is Canadian hard-earned money from the people of Canada! You see? 6Nations really is confused as to why their fellow Canadians are not hammering the governing authorities. WHY has this enormous amount of money been paid out to people who knew there was a land dispute in place to begin with? Doesn't this make you question just who inside this "deal" is making money for their "buddies?" Sounds like stuff we deal with down here in our U.S. government for sure. So, simply consider that part of it ok?

So, here is the letter I sent to the papers. I just wanted to place the perspective off simply being "Native vs. Non-Native" and show all people that they would be upset if they were being treated likewise. I really think that all Canadians should be pushing their leadership for answers on this. There is some "funny business" in the dealings and I think THAT part should be the focus....not hating each other of opposite races. But then this is just my opinion. And so bottom line to your question? No, I do not believe that 6Nations intent is to take things away from their fellow Canadians. I think the main focus is that they should have their legally binding "contracts"....both current and historic, ho0nored just the same as all other binding legal contracts are treated.

here is my letter:

I am writing today to ask the readership here to think upon a certain scenario. Make this a personal thing...feel the "ownership" in this scenario as you ponder these things.

You inherit your Grandparents home and you now have the care over that home and the land it sits upon. You could never sell it for that would be like selling your own memories away...your own heritage is held inside the walls of that home. The only way to afford to keep the home is to rent it out. You sign all the legal documents with the Renters and then you find out that they are "remodeling" it...tearing things out, building new things upon the land WITHOUT your permission! Then these same renters refuse to pay you the rental money agreed by contract for several months on end.

Now....what do you do? Let these renters, who have no respect for the special home and ground they are living in and upon, stay there for free? Do you demand that repairs to the home and land be made immediately? Do you follow through with all the necessary legal remedies available to you in order to kick the people OUT of your property?

If you are like most people? Yes, of course you will REMOVE these people from your precious family home and land.

Now, what if, the very legal system and governmental agencies turned on you....on all the agreements you have made through contracts, law, order and systems of government fail to provide you any remedy? These systems and laws do NOT aid you in protecting what is YOURS? Would you be angry? Feel deceived and betrayed?

Yes, I am SURE you would.

Are you feeling the anger yet? The betrayal?

Good. You have now just endured 5 minutes or less of being Native American.

They have endured these treatments for hundreds of years.

How to "fix" the current problems with 6Nations and other indigenous people who are finally sick and tired of lies and breaking of legal contracts?

Simple.

Those who have entered into agreements with the Sovereign Nations of Canada should pay their rent and lease fees, keep their word, stop breaking the laws and realize that no one OWNS the Earth....we are merely caretakers for the next generations to come.

There now. Wasn't that simple?

Pay what you promised, keep your contracts honored and be fair.

Gee, that was a simple solution.

Bluejay Pierce

proud to be Lakota/Cree from USA

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

No, I do not believe that 6Nations intent is to take things away from their fellow Canadians. I think the main focus is that they should have their legally binding "contracts"....both current and historic, ho0nored just the same as all other binding legal contracts are treated.

You answered the question with doublespeak. On one side you say that Six Nations does not _intend_ to take things away from their fellow Canadians. On the the other side you insist that _binding legal contracts_ be honoured.

Please clarify: it could cost $1 trillion to replace the land in the Haldimand tract. $1 trillion is a huge sum and would require a huge tax increase. Will Six Nations demand that their _contract_ be honoured even if it means the gov't has to raise the GST to 12% to pay for it?

BTW: you say that you want the Six Nations contracts to be honoured just like other legal contracts are honoured. If that is the case then Six Nations has already forfeited all right to compensation because they waited too long to demand compensation from the courts (read up on the concept called the doctrine of laches if you don't believe me). The only reason the gov't is even talking to Six Nations today is because the legal claims of aboriginals are given special status in this country. So spare us all the rhetoric about how Six Nations are being treated less fairly than a non-native with a similar contract .

cybercoma · August 12, 2006

I really do feel bad about the loss, but my feelings end at having to pay out of my pocket for damages.

NativeCharm · August 12, 2006

Of course they would end there. You would rather submit funds to a foreign country for their aid than taking care of business in your own homeland (happens far too often). While on one hand I dont want to be paying more taxes either, but on the same note I love the country I live in and if I have to pay a little extra for sacrifices that were made so I can have a good life today, in this country...so be it.

And " IF" you have no idea what those sacrifices are, then you truly are lacking the ability to learn anything thats is being graciously shared in these forums.

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

While on one hand I dont want to be paying more taxes either, but on the same note I love the country I live in and if I have to pay a little extra for sacrifices that were made so I can have a good life today, in this country...so be it.

I used the 12% GST example as a way to quantify the amount of money we are talking about. However, raising taxes that high that is not practical and the gov't would likely have to cut a lot of spending on services like health care and education. If the worst case scenario occurred, I am sure that virtually every spending program for aboriginals would be eliminated or cut to the bare minimum necessary to meet whatever treaty obligations exist. Do you really think it is worth sacrificing the interests of the majority of aboriginals in this country in order to look after the interests of a single band?

Also you have to think about the social impact of a punitive "Six Nations" tax. It would likely trigger such a hostile reaction in the country that racism directed at aboriginals would increase dramatically. Is it really in the interest of most aboriginals to support a settlement with Six Nations that would not benefit them economically but would severely hurt their relationships with the non-native communities that they have to deal with?

Bluejay · August 12, 2006

I really do feel bad about the loss, but my feelings end at having to pay out of my pocket for damages.

I understand that feeling you state here "Cybercoma"....I truly do. Perhaps that is why I state the fact that the issues are in question with Governmental policies that have led up to this point. I am not an economist nor historian. I do not have answers as to the remedies and do not want to see any person carry the burdens made by political systems which have allowed these situations to come to the point where they are. That is why I have stressed that we as people led by governing, elected authorities call THEM into higher accountability for what has led us to this point. I truly wish that we could all move forward in good, solid ways where agreemnts are fair and kept with some degree of honor. For ALL people, not giving special treatment in any one direction. In my heart, I wish so very much for all of us to look at why we are turning on each other, when in fact we should be unified and demanding accountability from the "hidden" agendas within all the governments. That is what I wish for in a peaceful way.

There have been policies made, agreements broken on all sides. I am not favoring anything that harms to the level that paying back 1 trillion dollars (by the way, where are the statements from 6Nations on legal documents that ask for this figure, Riverwind? Is this some media generated figure? None of the legal documents I have seen show this, so if you have a link or proof of that, I would be most grateful to read and see it. Truly, I am not being sarcastic here, I am just asking for more information on my end ok? Thanks)

Anyway, I will leave it at that for now. Need to get offline and get some home things worked on. I wish everyone a great afternoon. Back later,

blessings to you all,

Bluejay

Who's Doing What? · August 12, 2006

I really do feel bad about the loss, but my feelings end at having to pay out of my pocket for damages.

I hear ya cybercoma. Personally, mine end with the demand to leave my land.

Canuck E Stan · August 12, 2006

That is only a part of this issue and the reference back to the treaties is needed to prove original ownership.
Henco industries KNEW that the land was in dispute before they EVER went onto the land and began building.

These are the CURRENT legal disputes....not old treaties.

WHY has this enormous amount of money been paid out to people who knew there was a land dispute in place to begin with?

Bluejay,

Taken from your post, you have stated a number of times that this land is in dispute.

My understanding of the word "dispute" means-"To question the truth or validity of;"

therefore the ownership of those lands are in question.

Until that is resolved, one should not make an assumption that the ownership is a given, as you have done.

That's why negotiations are taking place.

Your post on the subject assumes that this land is Indian land, and it just might be,then again it may not.

It is in dispute.

When the negotiations are complete,we will have a resolution to the dispute.

Even if the final resolution does not please all the parties involved it must be accepted by all parties because it is the only method of solving such problems.

What good is negotiating if in the end one party refuses to accept the results?

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

There have been policies made, agreements broken on all sides. I am not favoring anything that harms to the level that paying back 1 trillion dollars

Thank you. Bluejay. I am heartened to hear that you are willing to look at this as a human issue rather than simply an impersonal business contract that must be enforced.

The $1 trillion figure was posted by people claiming to represent Six Nations on this message board. These same posters have also repeatedly said that they would have no problems evicting 500,000 innocent people from their homes if the gov't was not willing to pay that $1 trillion. I am sure that you recognonize that people making such statements in a public forum hurt the Six Nations cause.

NativeCharm · August 12, 2006

Riv, you CLEARLY have twisted words and are misreprestning what otehrs are saying... AGAIN!!!!!!!

Firstly, the trillion dollar figure was mentioned only to estaimate the current VALUE of the dealings. Secondly, every single person here has said they would not want to evict these people. Why do you insisting on twisting people's words?????? We have all been weighing best and worst case scenarios here. Please refrain from misleading others as to what some had said only for reference.

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

Firstly, the trillion dollar figure was mentioned only to estaimate the current VALUE of the dealings. Secondly, every single person here has said they would not want to evict these people.

All of these comments were posted by someone from Six Nations:

The land is not theirs to bargain with. So if 500,000 people wanted out, they would either have to take up a trillion dollar collection and buy their lands outright (providing the Clan Mothers let it go) or face a hundred thousand dollar a year lease that would go on forever. Ask those at Sauble Beach how they liked the rent increases.........

The only question now is what to do with the 500,000 or so settlers that came there illegally. The province has considered compensating Six Nations through a combination of cash and land swaps but each has their own problems. The real estate is worth over $1 trillion and there is no land in our estimation that belongs to the province or Canada (since all lands are treaty lands) that would not interfere with the title claims of other First Nations.

Cities and towns within the Haldimand tract will be subject to our territorial governments. If we say they pay taxes to us then they pay or they face the tax man...you know that 260lb guy with the Huron haricut and lead-based ink tattoes on his face, who will come knocking on your door a 5:300 in the morning with a brigade of mace-spraying warriors. I'm sure they can find things to use your house for, if you are unwilling to pay for its upkeep.

It is clear that at least some people in Six Nations have no interest in compromise and plan to seize everyone's property or evict them from their homes unless Six Nations get something close to $1 trillion in compensation. This is no exagerration or misrepresentation.

Bluejay · August 12, 2006

Clearly, there are people on ALL sides that will say things that are not based on facts that speak for all the REST of the people...that is human. Please do not believe that ALL 6Nations people have this attitude, because I can assure you, they do not. Just as with the violence that has erupted on both sides....not all in one group can keep everyone in line at every moment. That is impossible. But I do know that the Elders and leaders at 6Nations have tried very hard to try and keep things in line and perhaps many on the Caledonia side have tried to ask that their fellows refrain from making remarks and doing things hurtful as well. I think there again, there is good and bad in all things and all groups.

To throw out a figure as large as a "Trillion" is the easiest way possible to freak people out and make the job of negotiating anything good far more difficult. When someone hears a trillion dollars, the first thing they do is say, "We can never manage this! This is impossible!" And in frustration and fear, all true negotiating stops. I don't believe that is what the People are asking nor is the government hearing. Best to wait and see what the negotiations bring. Both sides have a difficult path ahead in this work, but I know they CAN and MUST work together. Hopefully all of us out here can support the work that both sides are doing in this effort.

So, as I have said previously, I am staying around here in peace....to learn from YOU all and hopefully to share what ever tiny bit of knowledge is floating around in this old head too. And peaceful, respectful discussions, showing respect for each person is the only way anything in this world will be made good for all. So that is all that I am about. And no, I do not have all the solutions...I know some things about the 6Nations people because I have had the honor of walking along side some amazing peacemakers there. But likewise, there is much I can learn from listening with an open mind here as well.

Ok, off the soapbox! LOL!

blessings to all,

Bluejay

Riverwind · August 12, 2006

Clearly, there are people on ALL sides that will say things that are not based on facts that speak for all the REST of the people...that is human. Please do not believe that ALL 6Nations people have this attitude, because I can assure you, they do not.

Glad to hear it.

There is one other position that I heard expressed that I would like to hear your thoughts on.

The poster above repeately claimed that Six Nations would annex the Grand River lands and then demand that taxes paid by property owners be paid directly to Six Nations instead their existing municipal gov'ts. He then claimed that these property owners would be denied the right to vote for the governing body that set the tax rates and decided what services would be provided with those tax monies because these "settlers" would find it difficult to meet the citizenship requirements of Six Nations.

What is your position regarding the voting and taxation rights for non-aboriginals living on lands that may be transferred to Six Nations in any agreement. In BC, the Nis'ga gave up the right to tax non-natives in return for being allowed to exclude non-natives from Nis'ga governance. Would Six Nations ask for something like this?