Crossing the Floor

[geoffrey]

I find it amazing how much more left-wing some of these *left-wing* U.S. politicians act once they are out of office.

Take an honest look at what Clinton did in office, or what Gore campaigned to do. You will find them to be a lot closer to the CPC than either of them would admit now.

I am sorry, but even if the Canadian left-wing got into power, they would govern just like the American left-wing (Jimmy Carter) did...ignore human rights abuses in other parts of the world to ensure that people here enjoy getting cheap made-in-Chine things from their local discount store...

The US left is further right than the CPC in actuality.

[shoop]

uh huh. That's why I find it so sad and vacuous when NDPers and Liberals try and *tarnish* CPC supporters by calling us neocons and comparing us to GW Bush. That is so far from reality in the vast majority of cases it is laughable.

No reason for these guys to actually do their homework. Far easier to use knee-jerk attacks that don't actually represent the truth of the situation.

The US left is further right than the CPC in actuality.

[geoffrey]

uh huh. That's why I find it so sad and vacuous when NDPers and Liberals try and *tarnish* CPC supporters by calling us neocons and comparing us to GW Bush. That is so far from reality in the vast majority of cases it is laughable.

No reason for these guys to actually do their homework. Far easier to use knee-jerk attacks that don't actually represent the truth of the situation.

The US left is further right than the CPC in actuality.

Neo-con is a term that is only really applicable to the current US administration. Most republicans aren't neo-cons and thats why support amongst republicans for Bush has dropped off.

Now the left in Canada has adpoted that term for the CPC, yet there is next to no neoconservatism in the CPC.

[shoop]

In spite of our differing views on investment of the Heritage Trust Fund I think we agree on many political topics in Canada.

I am a pretty strong CPC supporter here in Canada, but would definitely consider myself a member of the old PC wing of the party.

When I lived in the U.S. the Republicans scared me ... seriously. I found myself much more naturally drawn to the Democrats there.

Neo-con is a term that is only really applicable to the current US administration. Most republicans aren't neo-cons and thats why support amongst republicans for Bush has dropped off.

Now the left in Canada has adpoted that term for the CPC, yet there is next to no neoconservatism in the CPC.

[crazymf]

I am surprised at everyones agreement with my statements of late. As a matter of fact, I think everyone is leaning right since the election to unconciously save face.

Have a look around this website. The hardcore lefties are being very tolerant as of late.

Interesting....

[geoffrey]

I am surprised at everyones agreement with my statements of late. As a matter of fact, I think everyone is leaning right since the election to unconciously save face.

Have a look around this website. The hardcore lefties are being very tolerant as of late.

Interesting....

Only because we lost eureka, their fearless leader.

[shoop]

OK crazy I will stir it up with you.

Overall I have very little respect for Joe Clark.

His first go as leader of the PCs was terrible. He pissed away the Prime Ministership because he did not even try and work with the other party leaders. Very little had to be given to the creditistes to get them on board with that budget.

His terrible *leadership* gave us four more years of Trudeau than were necessary. All the worst of Trudeau (N.E.P. Constitution Act 1982, the biggest of the deficits) were done in those last four years.

He called a leadership review at a point when Mulroney and his gang thought they had lost the vote at the National convention. To his credit he served Mulroney well.

His return to politics was a nightmare. He stubbornly kept the PCs on life support for far too long. Then he turned pissy and went out of his way to screw over the CPC at every turn. He endorsed Anne Maclellan in 2004. wtf?

I am an Edmontonian but a little young to remember Hawrelak. Heard of the park though...

Kennedy was not a great leader. Bay of Pigs ... unnecessary fiasco. Cuban Missile Crisis ... terribly handled. He did nothing on civil rights. He most likely would have been just a failed one-term President had he not been shot.

Agreed Don Getty was terrible. He is a PC who almost lost in Alberta. wtf?

I am surprised at everyones agreement with my statements of late. As a matter of fact, I think everyone is leaning right since the election to unconciously save face.

Have a look around this website. The hardcore lefties are being very tolerant as of late.

Interesting....

[Kincora]

I find it amazing how much more left-wing some of these *left-wing* U.S. politicians act once they are out of office.

Take an honest look at what Clinton did in office, or what Gore campaigned to do. You will find them to be a lot closer to the CPC than either of them would admit now.

I am sorry, but even if the Canadian left-wing got into power, they would govern just like the American left-wing (Jimmy Carter) did...ignore human rights abuses in other parts of the world to ensure that people here enjoy getting cheap made-in-Chine things from their local discount store...

I agree with you totally. Parties modify themselves toa dapt to the current atmosphere.

The Conservatives, for their part, have drawn quite a ways nearer to center from when they last campaigned in 2004. Once in power, it must be difficult to maintain many extremist positions your party may have held, or ought to hold according to principle.

The NDP are not at all Left wing whenit comes to environmental protection. The CPC has even abandoned it's hard stance against SSM in favor of a more moderate one ( despite still intending to turn back the clock ).

The Liberals do this the most of all parties. They go to great lengths to come off as a party with social sympathies,and then forget all about those claims once they get back into power.

Nothing new here.

[geoffrey]

In spite of our differing views on investment of the Heritage Trust Fund I think we agree on many political topics in Canada.

I am a pretty strong CPC supporter here in Canada, but would definitely consider myself a member of the old PC wing of the party.

When I lived in the U.S. the Republicans scared me ... seriously. I found myself much more naturally drawn to the Democrats there.

Neo-con is a term that is only really applicable to the current US administration. Most republicans aren't neo-cons and thats why support amongst republicans for Bush has dropped off.

Now the left in Canada has adpoted that term for the CPC, yet there is next to no neoconservatism in the CPC.

I'm only as strong of a CPC supporter as they give me reason to be. I'm far too much of a traditional tory, of the real old-school Red Tory variety, to give in completely to these reformist ideas.

There are lots of issues that I have no party to choose in Canada, since the PC's died off anyways which I felt best represented my views. The CPC isn't a lesser of evils choice, but it is far from perfect.

I am no populist, I do believe experts know best. I have no problem with class and old money. I support having the monarchy as a part of our national heritage. These are problems fundamentally I have with most of the new 'grassroots' conservative movement in this country, for all of these I agree more with the Liberals. I do however get screwed with my small government, induvidually responsible, from instutions to communities beliefs if I went to that side.

There are alot of people in my position on both sides of the house right now, and we just have to wait to see how many switch over to the CPC now that they hold government. If a few more high profile 'blue liberals' switch sides you could see a further shift from populist reformist to traditional toryism.

On another note, I strongly dislike how the media destroyed the term 'red-tory', to mean some conservative that supports SSM and abortion. Boo on that, there is no longer a descriptor of many Canadian's views. Does the media actually believe that all progressively minded tories support gay marraige?

Can your personal values not be seperate from values on social justice and economic matters? Saying your pro-traditional marriage gets you put in with the reformers of the party, and thats not right.

Bev the ex-NDP'er was destroyed on this principle, its too bad.

[tml12]

In spite of our differing views on investment of the Heritage Trust Fund I think we agree on many political topics in Canada.

I am a pretty strong CPC supporter here in Canada, but would definitely consider myself a member of the old PC wing of the party.

When I lived in the U.S. the Republicans scared me ... seriously. I found myself much more naturally drawn to the Democrats there.

Neo-con is a term that is only really applicable to the current US administration. Most republicans aren't neo-cons and thats why support amongst republicans for Bush has dropped off.

Now the left in Canada has adpoted that term for the CPC, yet there is next to no neoconservatism in the CPC.

I think there are regional variations as well.

When I was living in the U.S., albeit liberal New York, the Republican mayor was pro-choice, pro-SSM, pro-welfare, pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action...really he was only conservative in his "tough on crime" attitude.

I am not sure it is easy to say what a federal/provincial/state Republican or a Liberal or an NDP is unless you examine their regional bias.

[shoop]

Fair enough. When I talked about supporting the Democrats I was referring to the party at the National level.

For example, I would definitely support Gordon Campbell in BC. Although the BC Liberals provincially can probably work pretty well with the CPC.

I think there are regional variations as well.

When I was living in the U.S., albeit liberal New York, the Republican mayor was pro-choice, pro-SSM, pro-welfare, pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action...really he was only conservative in his "tough on crime" attitude.

I am not sure it is easy to say what a federal/provincial/state Republican or a Liberal or an NDP is unless you examine their regional bias.

[crazymf]

OK crazy I will stir it up with you.

Overall I have very little respect for Joe Clark.

His first go as leader of the PCs was terrible. He pissed away the Prime Ministership because he did not even try and work with the other party leaders. Very little had to be given to the creditistes to get them on board with that budget.

His terrible *leadership* gave us four more years of Trudeau than were necessary. All the worst of Trudeau (N.E.P. Constitution Act 1982, the biggest of the deficits) were done in those last four years.

He called a leadership review at a point when Mulroney and his gang thought they had lost the vote at the National convention. To his credit he served Mulroney well.

His return to politics was a nightmare. He stubbornly kept the PCs on life support for far too long. Then he turned pissy and went out of his way to screw over the CPC at every turn. He endorsed Anne Maclellan in 2004. wtf?

I am an Edmontonian but a little young to remember Hawrelak. Heard of the park though...

Kennedy was not a great leader. Bay of Pigs ... unnecessary fiasco. Cuban Missile Crisis ... terribly handled. He did nothing on civil rights. He most likely would have been just a failed one-term President had he not been shot.

Agreed Don Getty was terrible. He is a PC who almost lost in Alberta. wtf?

Bad things can be said about any politician. It's the lasting effect that I'm referring to. Joe Who surely did some questionable things, but were they out of character or was he not willing to change his personal beliefs to suit the day? I don't remember details from then enough to personally argue the point. As a young adult, here's what made me like him and later think Trudeau was the weasel he was.

Joe formed a minority government. He was up front with the Canadian people and said the price of gas needed to go up by 'x' amount. Well, his minority government was in trouble. Trudeau comes along out of retirement to run again and says, 'no way do we need to raise gas prices', etc. Of course he gets voted in again. Within a year or so, the price of gas was higher than Joe originally said. That was my first taste of real campaign promises being broken by weasel politicians like Trudeau. I respected Joe for telling the truth to us even though it wasn't what we wanted to hear. That's the way I recall it.

Bill Hawrylak was as crooked as a dogs hind leg and lined his pockets with sideways land deals or some stuff like that. However, he was a leader who was great for the city of Edmonton and we prospered under his watch. I'm old enough to remember hanging out at 'Mayfair Park', and couldn't understand why they changed the name. Nowadays if you are away from the city for a couple years there's a good chance everything will have a different name when you get back.

These will always be to me:

Capilano Freeway

Quesnel Freeway

Mayfair Park

Renfrew Park

Calgary Trail

I certainly don't remember Kennedy first hand, but everything I've read says he also might have kept the States out of Vietnam or quit a hell of a lot earlier before it got stupid. That makes him look like a saint compared to Johnson and Nixon. Politics were tricky then because the threat of another world war was real. The Cuban thing could have went there real fast.

[shoop]

Kennedy got the U.S. into Vietnam.

So much mythology got built up with Camelot and the Kennedy assasination it is tough to dispute. My opinion changed a lot on Kennedy the first time I actually sat down and studied that period of U.S. history.

Here is a link to a very interesting book by Noam Chomsky on Kennedy. If you really want some insight into Kennedy it is worth the read.

The whole Kennedy thing goes to prove how family money and looks can still go a long, long way in our society.

I certainly don't remember Kennedy first hand, but everything I've read says he also might have kept the States out of Vietnam or quit a hell of a lot earlier before it got stupid. That makes him look like a saint compared to Johnson and Nixon. Politics were tricky then because the threat of another world war was real. The Cuban thing could have went there real fast.

[tml12]

Fair enough. When I talked about supporting the Democrats I was referring to the party at the National level.

For example, I would definitely support Gordon Campbell in BC. Although the BC Liberals provincially can probably work pretty well with the CPC.

I think there are regional variations as well.

When I was living in the U.S., albeit liberal New York, the Republican mayor was pro-choice, pro-SSM, pro-welfare, pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action...really he was only conservative in his "tough on crime" attitude.

I am not sure it is easy to say what a federal/provincial/state Republican or a Liberal or an NDP is unless you examine their regional bias.

The BC and Quebec Liberals are CPC juniors.

There is no serious provincial Conservative party in Quebec and I don't BC either...

[Hicksey]

Kennedy got the U.S. into Vietnam.

So much mythology got built up with Camelot and the Kennedy assasination it is tough to dispute. My opinion changed a lot on Kennedy the first time I actually sat down and studied that period of U.S. history.

Here is a link to a very interesting book by Noam Chomsky on Kennedy. If you really want some insight into Kennedy it is worth the read.

The whole Kennedy thing goes to prove how family money and looks can still go a long, long way in our society.

I certainly don't remember Kennedy first hand, but everything I've read says he also might have kept the States out of Vietnam or quit a hell of a lot earlier before it got stupid. That makes him look like a saint compared to Johnson and Nixon. Politics were tricky then because the threat of another world war was real. The Cuban thing could have went there real fast.

It was the likes Teddy Kennedy, Jane Fonda and John Kerry that went in and negotiated with the enemy and gave them the strength and reason to continue fighting at a time they were ready to lay down their weapons and give up to the Americans. Many more soldiers died as a result of their actions than were saved. They're much closer to being guilty of treason than to worthy of sainthood.