Mass Homelessness

[geoffrey]

It's pretty simple from my perspective. If you can't find work in what your doing, its time to start doing something else.

To which I will add: if you can't find any work in the area you'd like to live in, move yourself to a place where there is work. I've done it, more than once and lived to tell the tale. Actually, 'prospered' is a better word than 'lived'. The jobs don't come to you - it's the other way around.

Thanks for the addition, I completely agree.

My family (my parents family) has moved around for this reason many times, Winnipeg to Toronto to Quebec (short time, don't worry, I'm still sane) to Calgary.

In Calgary we've found some definate prosperity, and now that I'm doing my own thing, I'll stay here as long as I can be prosperous here too. I work and go to school (wow is that possible? people can actually fund their university education through work? noooo way) and if there was a situation in my industry that prevented me from continuing, I'd pack up and move somewhere else where I could support myself.

I wouldn't hold onto Calgary forever, claiming its my right to have you paying for me to live here.

[Hicksey]

It's pretty simple from my perspective. If you can't find work in what your doing, its time to start doing something else.

To which I will add: if you can't find any work in the area you'd like to live in, move yourself to a place where there is work. I've done it, more than once and lived to tell the tale. Actually, 'prospered' is a better word than 'lived'. The jobs don't come to you - it's the other way around.

Thanks for the addition, I completely agree.

My family (my parents family) has moved around for this reason many times, Winnipeg to Toronto to Quebec (short time, don't worry, I'm still sane) to Calgary.

In Calgary we've found some definate prosperity, and now that I'm doing my own thing, I'll stay here as long as I can be prosperous here too. I work and go to school (wow is that possible? people can actually fund their university education through work? noooo way) and if there was a situation in my industry that prevented me from continuing, I'd pack up and move somewhere else where I could support myself.

I wouldn't hold onto Calgary forever, claiming its my right to have you paying for me to live here.

I know I could do better elsewhere but with sick family I'm here until the situation rights itself. But I understand it is my choice and up to me (not taxpayers) to make it work.

[geoffrey]

I know I could do better elsewhere but with sick family I'm here until the situation rights itself. But I understand it is my choice and up to me (not taxpayers) to make it work.

Staying somewhere for family isn't a bad reason to make less money. Money is hardly the only measure of success and happiness. If someone offered me two similiar jobs in Calgary and Winnipeg, with Winnipeg paying $10k/year more, I'd stay in Calgary because I love the environment here. I'm big into mountaineering, and this is more valuable to me than that raise. Family is also here.

Tons of examples. But it ends when the taxpayer is paying for people to stay (*cough* Cod fishermen).

[Hicksey]

I know I could do better elsewhere but with sick family I'm here until the situation rights itself. But I understand it is my choice and up to me (not taxpayers) to make it work.

Staying somewhere for family isn't a bad reason to make less money. Money is hardly the only measure of success and happiness. If someone offered me two similiar jobs in Calgary and Winnipeg, with Winnipeg paying $10k/year more, I'd stay in Calgary because I love the environment here. I'm big into mountaineering, and this is more valuable to me than that raise. Family is also here.

Tons of examples. But it ends when the taxpayer is paying for people to stay (*cough* Cod fishermen).

You want to talk about a culture of entitlement? I saw a poster talking about an EI holiday he earned or least thought he did. It might be above. Maybe not. My memory seems to have escaped me.

[geoffrey]

You want to talk about a culture of entitlement? I saw a poster talking about an EI holiday he earned or least thought he did. It might be above. Maybe not. My memory seems to have escaped me.

That's alot of Canada for you. Canadian's don't earn EI. They don't deserve EI. You humbly accept it if you struggling temporarily between jobs. Thats EI.

I feel like you should pay it back when your employed. That'd motivate people to get working alot quicker instead of taking 'EI holidays.'

In our economy right now, unemployment has no excuse. I hope next to no one is on EI currently.

[Hicksey]

You want to talk about a culture of entitlement? I saw a poster talking about an EI holiday he earned or least thought he did. It might be above. Maybe not. My memory seems to have escaped me.

That's alot of Canada for you. Canadian's don't earn EI. They don't deserve EI. You humbly accept it if you struggling temporarily between jobs. Thats EI.

I feel like you should pay it back when your employed. That'd motivate people to get working alot quicker instead of taking 'EI holidays.'

In our economy right now, unemployment has no excuse. I hope next to no one is on EI currently.

There's always a bleeding-heart Liberal or NDP around to listen to their plight and promise them 2 years EI instead of nearly one if you'll just vote for them.

[Hydraboss]

Hydraboss. only 34% of unemployed qualify for EI thanks to "fiscal Conservatism." You statements are heartless and you should experience the other side of life.

Sources please.

By the way, I have been on the other side. I worked my ass off for a jerk that liked to write bad checks. Every payday, I would head to his bank and put my check in collections (cost me $15) and wait for him to deposit a company check (and then I got paid). Sometimes, this could take over a week. Why didn't I just get another job? There weren't any. And I didn't qualify for UI (that's what it was called, remember?) so I couldn't suck from the public tit.

Heartless???? Because I believe that people should stand on their own two feet? Would you encourage a defeatest attitude by handing people that which they have not earned? Heaven help this country should a person of your beliefs run the social programs. Adversity built all things worth building. Nobody looks to Michaelanglo and thinks, "Too bad he couldn't sit at home and drink wine. Poor bugger had to work."

[Book]

[How would you feel if it was your mother or grandmother, who had worked for 30 years, doing office work, which she was good at, even though she had bad feet (doesn’t affect your brain), then lost her job 10 years before retirement age & couldn’t get another job because she didn’t look young any more & so had people threatening to yank her home out from under her, screaming lazy bum at her? – because she didn’t hitch out to Alberta to work at back-breaking labour?

[Leader Circle]

Well, thank you very much for the welcome hydraboss.

Yes -56C'. If you dont beleive me Im sure its on record, it happened on more than one ocassion. There was a slight breeze on top of that. Most of the time temps between -20 to -40. I imagine your one of those bosses that sits in is truck reading Heavy Metal comics and porn while your crew works... Lucky bastard!

I was a welders helper making 14.25hr 12hr days at one point up to 34 days straight. Usually came out for 2 days every 3 weeks. As I understand from speaking to friends the BC wage starts around 16hr with a decent company this year.

About all these 'moving expenses paid' jobs, ya Ive heard pleanty about em' but never seen em or known anyone accept an experienced Heavey Duty Mech. that got one. If you wanna send down the applications those

I could recruit you a whole crew myself. If these paid expenses jobs are out there, their not doing a very good job advertising them. Plus from the amount of people I saw split after couple days, I'd be super impressed just to see a company willing to pay for the courses.

Last year I arrived in Ft St John at the begining of september. It took 6 weeks of going into shops and sitting while locals were barley getting enough days themselves. I had to pay my own food and hotel for the 6 weeks, aswell as 800$ for H2S0, L1OFA and WHIMMIS.

My 57 yr/old recently unemployed-because of softwood-father didnt get put to work steady till December, and that was for 30 days of mixxing mud on a rig. He went up this year begining of Jan and everyones getting laid-off the current job hes on cause of permit problems. All he wants to do is work if youve got one of those fat paying jobs that will last longer than break-up please do email me, Hes got experience pipelining on lay-in crew.

Ya it would be nice if EI would make up the difference if I worked at McDonalds but they dont. If I manage to pick up 1 day of work EI doesnt pay for that week. Your right its an abuse to the system, but seriously, what about the fisherman. They work a fraction of the time I put in and as far as I know, their not even required to look for work during offseason.

Last thing, Hicksey said "The benefit of it is that we attract skill jobs. The problem with it is that unskilled labour jobs get sent overseas."

Could you please explain how those skilled jobs are generated? Please dont say the money saved on labour will be reinvested to create north american jobs. I just cant see how its not to line rich pockets.

I don't think we got below minus 30 this year. I have seen minus 50, but not this year.

Just incase you're wondering, here in Grande Prairie, in the midst of breakup, companies are still hiring. You don't need to be on unemployment! I am surprised they stuck you in Helmut and paid you only $14.25/hr. They pay more than that here at Tim Hortons.

If you were in Helmut this year for the first time, you probably never got to see the days of crossing the train bridge to get there! That was always interesting!

Fort St. John is a tough market to break in to, Grande Prairie is a better place to find work, the only problem is housing here is tough. There is nowhere to rent or buy.

This place is short of alot of workers.

[margrace]

Well I worked the food bank this morning, what a depressing way to start one's day. Some people get kicked in the head the minute they raise it up. Its okay in this country if you are educated, completely healthy , no mental problems and under 40.

Then there are the people who worked hard all their lives, had a good retirement coming and are told" oh by the way we lost all our retirement funds, the government said it was okay". What happens to these people.

It so easy to sit in the judgment seat when you have never known the adversity that some people face.

And there's that wonderful thing CANCER.

[scribblet]

No one has a problem with helping people who have been ill, come upon hard times etc. etc. What has been said over and over again, is that some people object to permanent welfare (for able bodied/minded people). Asking that people take some responsibility for their own actions and learn to stand on their own two feet, isn't heartless, its tough love.

As far as the statement re: "Then there are the people who worked hard all their lives, had a good retirement coming and are told" oh by the way we lost all our retirement funds, the government said it was okay".

Could you be more specific and give some source. If a company can no longer fund their retirement program, or has lost its pension assetts because of poor management, bankruptcy etc. how is that the governments fault, maybe you could clarify that.

I do disagree with a company raiding the pension plans and taking the employee's funds, but the issue of pension surpluses and who owns them is complicated. Not only that, surpluses are smoke and mirrors, accounting and acturarial projections based on conditions which can change.

[geoffrey]

The government could have a place in garunteeing company retirement funds. However, I believe it more responsibile for people to save for their own retirement and not rely on the supposed goodwill of a company that really has no vested interest in you once you leave. I'd like to see a move away from company retirement funds, and instead, have people invest that share of money on their own.

These are the problems that unions have created, and now people are going to have to deal with these unrealistic expectations.

[Smithers]

Geoffies right! NO CPP or old age eether Why shood I pay for old peaple tobe lazy?

[geoffrey]

Well, to go as far as eliminating CPP and OAS, we'd need to make investment way more attractive, and thats a move towards a no-income, all consumption tax system. Something I personally think will weaken our domestic economy. There must be a balance between investment and consumption in order for maxium returns to be given to both parties, and we are a little heavy on the consumption side as is in my opinion.

What we need is a lower tax rate for RRSP withdrawls and complete elimination of the capital gains tax in all forms. That'll encourage people to invest to the point where OAS and CPP become irrelevant. It doesn't take much money per month to create a pension for yourself equal to OAS payments!

[scribblet]

Geoffies right! NO CPP or old age eether Why shood I pay for old peaple tobe lazy?

Well, CPP is based on employee/employer contributions, therefore lazy people who don't work, won't receive it will they !

Old age pension is a different matter, but if we eliminate that then there should be a drop in taxes to compensate, or maybe people should be required to pay into that too ?

[Book]

Geoffies right! NO CPP or old age eether Why shood I pay for old peaple tobe lazy?

Smithers, you must really hate your grandparents, unless they are wealthy people. Hope you remember your words when you are 65.

[geoffrey]

Geoffies right! NO CPP or old age eether Why shood I pay for old peaple tobe lazy?

Smithers, you must really hate your grandparents, unless they are wealthy people. Hope you remember your words when you are 65.

I doubt if it will be around when I'm 65. Someone will realise the cost by then.

[Book]

Can’t understand people who: Choose somebody to put up on a pedestal, pay them their weight in gold & practically worship them. These people are not chosen because they work harder or because they are more moral or ethical, or are good at something, but simply because they have more money. They feel that we should work hard all our lives to make this person or people even richer, throw our conscience out the door for them & if we loose our jobs, grovel around saying how worthless we are & don’t deserve to live & should hand over our homes we’ve been making payments on all our lives to these wealthy people, even though we may be decent people, who work hard if given a chance (aren’t as lazy and immoral as them). This is called the Worship of the Wealthy & really makes no sense.

Some people say, “I’m lazy. but if/when I make the effort I will get rich & then don’t want to share it.” They don’t want to know that hard-working people don’t (aren’t allowed to) get rich. Knowing that would spoil their fantasy, like telling them there is no Santa Claus, get furious if you say their fantasy world doesn’t exist. T

here is also a fallacy out there in another area. They assume that with no social services they won’t have to pay taxes. They will pay as much in taxes. It will just go to the rich instead of benefiting all Canadians. That’s why they have to keep some of us locked out of the working world, so they can blame us for having to pay taxes. If we didn’t get the pittance we do, you would still have to pay the same taxes.

[margrace]

No one has a problem with helping people who have been ill, come upon hard times etc. etc. What has been said over and over again, is that some people object to permanent welfare (for able bodied/minded people). Asking that people take some responsibility for their own actions and learn to stand on their own two feet, isn't heartless, its tough love.

As far as the statement re: "Then there are the people who worked hard all their lives, had a good retirement coming and are told" oh by the way we lost all our retirement funds, the government said it was okay".

Could you be more specific and give some source. If a company can no longer fund their retirement program, or has lost its pension assetts because of poor management, bankruptcy etc. how is that the governments fault, maybe you could clarify that.

I do disagree with a company raiding the pension plans and taking the employee's funds, but the issue of pension surpluses and who owns them is complicated. Not only that, surpluses are smoke and mirrors, accounting and acturarial projections based on conditions which can change.

The company is Stelco steel of Hamilton, they asked permission from the Ontario Government to invest the empoyee pension funds and were given that permission and then they lost the money through poor investments.

Those that were unionized will get some, those was were not may be out of luck.

[Nocrap]

Can’t understand people who: Choose somebody to put up on a pedestal, pay them their weight in gold & practically worship them. These people are not chosen because they work harder or because they are more moral or ethical, or are good at something, but simply because they have more money. They feel that we should work hard all our lives to make this person or people even richer, throw our conscience out the door for them & if we loose our jobs, grovel around saying how worthless we are & don’t deserve to live & should hand over our homes we’ve been making payments on all our lives to these wealthy people, even though we may be decent people, who work hard if given a chance (aren’t as lazy and immoral as them). This is called the Worship of the Wealthy & really makes no sense.

Some people say, “I’m lazy. but if/when I make the effort I will get rich & then don’t want to share it.” They don’t want to know that hard-working people don’t (aren’t allowed to) get rich. Knowing that would spoil their fantasy, like telling them there is no Santa Claus, get furious if you say their fantasy world doesn’t exist. T

here is also a fallacy out there in another area. They assume that with no social services they won’t have to pay taxes. They will pay as much in taxes. It will just go to the rich instead of benefiting all Canadians. That’s why they have to keep some of us locked out of the working world, so they can blame us for having to pay taxes. If we didn’t get the pittance we do, you would still have to pay the same taxes.

How would you feel if it was your mother or grandmother, who had worked for 30 years, doing office work, which she was good at, even though she had bad feet (doesn’t affect your brain), then lost her job 10 years before retirement age & couldn’t get another job because she didn’t look young any more & so had people threatening to yank her home out from under her, screaming lazy bum at her? – because she didn’t hitch out to Alberta to work at back-breaking labour?

Book. I think that from your original post we may have gone off topic a bit. However, I believe that you are speaking from some personal pain. I am also fifty-something so can empatize with your plight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have worked most of your life, perhaps for one company, and now find yourself unemployed at a time in your life when it is more difficult to compete for jobs in a youth-orientated society. You are now in financial trouble and risk losing your home, but still a decade away from being able to collect CPP.

From where you sit the recent announcement of the low unemployment rate, would be the last sraw.

Governments like to share these statistics because it means that they are doing a good job. However, I see the same thing everyday....long line-ups of people all vying for a handful of vacant positions. University grads driving cab and teachers working at McDonalds. It's got to be scarey.

There are no easy answers, but perhaps posting here is a way of venting your frustration.

[scribblet]

No one has a problem with helping people who have been ill, come upon hard times etc. etc. What has been said over and over again, is that some people object to permanent welfare (for able bodied/minded people). Asking that people take some responsibility for their own actions and learn to stand on their own two feet, isn't heartless, its tough love.

The company is Stelco steel of Hamilton, they asked permission from the Ontario Government to invest the empoyee pension funds and were given that permission and then they lost the money through poor investments.

Those that were unionized will get some, those was were not may be out of luck.

I don't know about the gov't giving them permission, or why it si the gov'ts fault, but orwhat that is about, all is that Stelco went bankrupt, and employees are at the bottom when it comes to getting any money.

I would think that this makes a good case for employer's getting out of the pension business and employees investing their own funds. A larger RRSP contribution room would help.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3MK...113/ai_n9775841

Stelco Inc. won't be spared from having to make special payments to close a $1-billion gap in its pension funding once it emerges from bankruptcy protection.

In a letter to the Hamilton, Ontario,-based steelmaker, James Arnett, the Ontario government's special adviser on the steel industry, told the company that it "will not be entitled" to the pension contribution exemption when it emerges from protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act (CCAA).

Essentially, Stelco was granted a pension holiday in 1996 that permitted it to stop funding its pension plans on a solvency basis. Instead, it could fund them on a going-concern basis and pay into the province-wide Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund......

It is my understanding that the gov't originally spared them from making special payments because of the financial problems, its not all cut and dried.

There's an interesting article here on how many plans are struggling because of low interest rates and the markets.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/03...1506544-cp.html

Just how the federal government can help is now being considered as part of a major review initiated by the federal Finance Department almost a year ago, says Karen Badgerou-Croteau, managing director of private pensions at OSFI.

"The Department of Finance and government will ultimately make the decision as to what sort of relief, if it goes that way at all, would be appropriate for the industry," she said in an interview.

Extending to 10 years the current five-year deadline for paying pension shortfalls was among the suggestions contained in about 120 submissions made last year to the federal review.

Much less popular was a government-run insurance scheme that plans would pay into in case one fell into bankruptcy.

But any change to the pension laws may be stalled by the change of government.

[Leader Circle]

Can’t understand people who: Choose somebody to put up on a pedestal, pay them their weight in gold & practically worship them. These people are not chosen because they work harder or because they are more moral or ethical, or are good at something, but simply because they have more money. They feel that we should work hard all our lives to make this person or people even richer, throw our conscience out the door for them & if we loose our jobs, grovel around saying how worthless we are & don’t deserve to live & should hand over our homes we’ve been making payments on all our lives to these wealthy people, even though we may be decent people, who work hard if given a chance (aren’t as lazy and immoral as them). This is called the Worship of the Wealthy & really makes no sense.

Some people say, “I’m lazy. but if/when I make the effort I will get rich & then don’t want to share it.” They don’t want to know that hard-working people don’t (aren’t allowed to) get rich. Knowing that would spoil their fantasy, like telling them there is no Santa Claus, get furious if you say their fantasy world doesn’t exist. T

here is also a fallacy out there in another area. They assume that with no social services they won’t have to pay taxes. They will pay as much in taxes. It will just go to the rich instead of benefiting all Canadians. That’s why they have to keep some of us locked out of the working world, so they can blame us for having to pay taxes. If we didn’t get the pittance we do, you would still have to pay the same taxes.

How would you feel if it was your mother or grandmother, who had worked for 30 years, doing office work, which she was good at, even though she had bad feet (doesn’t affect your brain), then lost her job 10 years before retirement age & couldn’t get another job because she didn’t look young any more & so had people threatening to yank her home out from under her, screaming lazy bum at her? – because she didn’t hitch out to Alberta to work at back-breaking labour?

Book. I think that from your original post we may have gone off topic a bit. However, I believe that you are speaking from some personal pain. I am also fifty-something so can empatize with your plight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have worked most of your life, perhaps for one company, and now find yourself unemployed at a time in your life when it is more difficult to compete for jobs in a youth-orientated society. You are now in financial trouble and risk losing your home, but still a decade away from being able to collect CPP.

From where you sit the recent announcement of the low unemployment rate, would be the last sraw.

Governments like to share these statistics because it means that they are doing a good job. However, I see the same thing everyday....long line-ups of people all vying for a handful of vacant positions. University grads driving cab and teachers working at McDonalds. It's got to be scarey.

There are no easy answers, but perhaps posting here is a way of venting your frustration.

I can understand your frustration Book, but what I can't understand is young people who refuse to leave home for work. If more unemployed young people would leave their homes and come to Alberta, there would be jobs for people like yourself. Instead, these same young people, will hang out at home and wait for their government to bail them out. That I have a problem with!

I also know people in similar positions as yourself and alot of what holds them back is stubborness. I am not saying this is the case with you, but the wife's aunt, she refuses any help from her family and prefers to live in absolute poverty. Sometimes, you just can't help people who refuse to help themselves.

Hope your situation improves book, regardless what people will tell you, we righties DO have a heart and don't wish misfortune on anyone.

[Bryan]

There are always extreme examples of people who legitimately need help. That's why our social safety net is there. These people are the exception though. Ask people who are welfare case workers how many of their clients simply refuse to work. It's mind boggling how many able bodied people are on assistance for no other reason than they are lazy.

I still do not see anything close to an unemployment problem in this country. People who are willing and able to work get jobs, people who are unable or unwilling don't.

Even if the work isn't in abundance where you live, AND you have a legitimate reason why you can't/won't move, there are still ways to do work that comes from elsewhere, while staying at home. People sentd you things, you do the work, and send it back. It's usually not fun work, and it's probably not going to get you rich, but at least it's income and you aren't living off of everyone elses money.

About "earning" EI:

I've been paying into EI all my life. If I ever need it, yes, I do believe I earned it. I paid for it, it is my right to claim it if I ever need it. That having been said, I still do not have any plans to use it if I can at all help it.

[Renegade]

Geoffies right! NO CPP or old age eether Why shood I pay for old peaple tobe lazy?

Well, CPP is based on employee/employer contributions, therefore lazy people who don't work, won't receive it will they !

Old age pension is a different matter, but if we eliminate that then there should be a drop in taxes to compensate, or maybe people should be required to pay into that too ?

If you look at the rate of return, CPP is a poor investment. CPP was great for those who retired in the earlier years of the program because they had low levels of contribution yet collected far more than they contributed upon retirement. The demographics have changed all that. The contribution rates have been jacked up and as a result contributors today would be better off if the scheme was collapsed and their premiums returned (with interest). A much better scheme would be if the employer & employeee contributions were mandatory, but invested in the fund of your choice (kind of a forced RRSP).

OAS is nothing but a disguised welfare scheme. In my view it should be collapsed into the welfare program to avoid the duplication of overhead, or eliminated altogether.

[Renegade]

About "earning" EI:

I've been paying into EI all my life. If I ever need it, yes, I do believe I earned it. I paid for it, it is my right to claim it if I ever need it. That having been said, I still do not have any plans to use it if I can at all help it.

The whole notion of earning EI is nonsense. EI is insurance. As soon as you are part of the scheme you are entitled to insurance, regardless if you have contributed for 1 day or 40 years. (OK, not quite 1 day because of the minimium period) Conversely, if you are not legimately unemplolyed, you are not entitled to one penny, regardless if you have contributed for 40 years.