Majority English provinces

[tml12]

Interested in other provinces Bakunin?

This are the opportunities for French Language, Francophone education for Kindergarten to Grade 12 in Alberta

Note that this is Francophone education(wholly French spoken,, no English at all). There are also many many French Immersion program schools in the Public and Catholic School Boards.

All are paid for by all taxpayers in the province.

Good post fellowtraveller...

[Guest eureka]

So did the Conservatives, Leafless. Don't let your dislike of Liberals cloud your judgement.

Fellowtraveller. Those kinds of programmes are available to the French in every province. I live in a city of 150,000 in Ontario where there is a French High School and three or four public schools.

What bakunin cannot grasp is that Canada has made every effort to preserve and encourage its French dimension while Quebec has abandoned it beyond the borders of the province. He also cannot see that Quebec has deliberately set out to eradicate English in the province and to expel those French as well as English, who will not suffer under the embarrassment.

Some 750,000 have left Quebec since the language laws were enacted. More than 100,000 of those were Francophones - several hundred of those are in my city.

[fellowtraveller]

Fellowtraveller. Those kinds of programmes are available to the French in every province. I live in a city of 150,000 in Ontario where there is a French High School and three or four public schools

My post was intended for Bakunin, he seemed unsure of what was happening in othe rprovinces.

The services I described are avalable to available to any resident in Alberta , not just 'the French'.

[Leafless]

eureka

You wrote- " So did the Conservatives Leafless. Don't like your dislike of the Liberals cloud your judgement."

Good point eureka and this provides further proof of how dysfunctional Canadian politics really is, if you know what I mean.

But your previous post shed light on the fact how ridiculous this whole situation is.

I mean how can any federal government support Quebec's since the Constitution since 1867 made Quebec subject to certain obligations concerning bilingualism and that is it must adapt it's laws in French and English and guarantee parliament, judges, litigants and parties to a legal proceeding with the use of the two languages.

It's because of this Quebec could NOT become a unilingual French province even though Robert Bourassa in 1974 made French the official language of Quebec.

So how can the federal government support this province concerning outright language discrimination against the English without forcing the province to become officially bilingual???

[fellowtraveller]

So how can the federal government support this province concerning outright language discrimination against the English without forcing the province to become officially bilingual???

One word answer: votes.

[Leafless]

fellowtraveller

You wrote-"Votes"

If that's the case the Constitution is a joke and should be scrapped.

[speaker]

It might be a mistake to jump to conclusions about what votes means, for example maybe the votes that count are the ones that keep Quebec in Canada. If Quebec were not a province of the country then the constitution we have would be somewhat irrelevant.

Doubtless the anglos that left Quebec have some of the same feelings as the Palestinians who were forced out of Isreal, Palestine, just not as traumatic. Perhaps closer to the way the Cajuns felt in their first generation or two away from the bay of Fundy. Or maybe the way the French of New France felt when told that they would have to speak English if they wanted any jobs.

Let's try a little patience, Quebec is a fine place, almost as beautiful and wealthy as Alberta. It would be a shame to lose either one from this truly great country. A sense of history, learning from our mistakes, and being willing to give a little to keep things going. Some sacrifices are going to be bigger.

[Leafless]

speaker

You wrote- " If Quebec were not a province then the Constitution we have would be somewhat irrevelent."

Quebec has used the NWS clause 16 times and is a province that supports separation.

The federal government has allowed blatant discrimination of English Canadians causing an exodus of English speaking Canadians from that province and has allowed prime ministers from that province to further the cause of Quebec supremecy concerning anti-Canadian and undemocratic movements against Canadian unity and it's ideoligies.

Quebecers DO NOT believe Quebec is a province but is a nation and this as been proven time and time again by ignoring the polical advances from leaders of national parties not from that province and by advancing the cause of Quebec nationalism.

Quebec is NOT the wealthy province you describe it to be. The wealth in that province has been created by Canadian tax-payers through the manipulative tactics of the federal government mostly from prime ministers originating from that province and did not accomplish any degree of wealth utilizing their own resources and their own language.

The Constitution is a joke, does not work and Paul Martin is proving this by trying to acquire a stranglehold on constitutional powers to prevent parliament from ever changing previous constitutional rulings concerning so called minority rights.

It's time the English protect their rights.

[fellowtraveller]

Leafless, by 'votes', I meant that generations of Prime Ministers have done anything and everything to get Quebec to vote for them. They represent 25% of the seats available, and - to an extent not experienced anywhere else in Canada - the electorate of Quebec are aware of the realpolitik of strategic voting. It is not a Constitutional issue, but a practical matter.

[Leafless]

fellowtraveller

You wrote- " the electorate of Quebec are aware of the real politik of strategic voting.

It is not a Constitunial issue, but a practical matter."

The real problem fellowtraveller is that the Liberals through many years of poor, weak leadership and PM's from Quebec has sold the ROC down the drain so Mr. Trudeau's francophone friends would not have to be assimiliated.

This is not only my view but the view of many Canadians.

I simply want my language English protected and left intact and not abused by federal government meddling to force me to speak a language I will never have any use for especially concerning gainful employment in my own province where the majority is English speaking.

I want and demand Charter protection.

[Blackguard]

I have heard arguments like Leafless's many times, truly anti-quebecois, frankly racist, and deeply insulting. That kind of attitude has fuelled enmity between the French and English people of Canada for generations, and it's not about to stop.

I've seen it many times. Once it was that old woman who asked about French people in Quebec why they would not just send their children to English school for a couple of generations and be done with it?

Another time it was that woman from Ontario who started talking in a very insulting way about "separatists" to a bunch of quebequers she didn't even know - she assumed that if they were in the same circle of people as her, none of them could be sovereignists.

I've seen tens of times an English person walk into a room full of French people, be the only English person, and be insulted because people kept speaking French to each other.

I don't know if other provinces should enforce bilingual laws, but I think the question is meaningless. Ontario deos, in the Ottawa area, because the percentage of French citizens is pretty high, and it is just across the river from Quebec, so the demographics justify it. The rest of Canada does not enforce any kind of bilingualism.

I've met people who have been through French immersion programs through high school. What a joke. Not a single one of them can speak any French, probably not enough to order a drink or a sandwich.

The whole "liberal French conspiracy theory" is utter nonsense. Trudeau and Chretien are very much disliked in Quebec, seen as traitors and English yesmen.

Comparing the departure of English people from Montreal to the deportation of the Acadians shows a total lack of historical perspective. These people were removed from the best land in New France at gunpoint and forced to settle in a swamp in Louisiana.

After the elections, I was wondering if it was truly possible that federalism could be reformed to include Quebec. But I would be very surprised. I think the attitude I find here is very common in Canada, and Quebec is despised. Quebec's desire to control it's destiny is seen as arrogant. While Canada encourages democracy in other parts of the world, on it's territory it interferes with democracy and violates a nation's aspirations. The Quebec referendum is not unique, the Liberal government acted in a very similar way during the annexion of New Found Land.

We truly are two different people. Sometimes we manage to get along well, but those are very special instances. At least we are not shooting guns at each other.

The English language is well and safe. In Canada, being bilingual is defined as a French who also speaks English.

A big number of Canadians don't want to accept that Quebecv will be fine (I think it will be better off) outside of Canada. It looks like an emotional response to a feeling of rejection. Cheer up, it's not about you. It's just a bunch of people who have the desire to take up their own path, go their own way, do their own thing. Something most of you would appreciate from another people, or from an individual decided to make it on his own in the world.

A lot of people would prefer federalism to work for Quebec, but a lot of those people also feel that Canada is not up to it.

Jump!

[tml12]

"I don't know if other provinces should enforce bilingual laws, but I think the question is meaningless. Ontario deos, in the Ottawa area, because the percentage of French citizens is pretty high, and it is just across the river from Quebec, so the demographics justify it. The rest of Canada does not enforce any kind of bilingualism."

Quebec does not enforce bilingualism. Quebec has a lot of bilingual areas (the island of Montreal and the Eastern Townships just to name a few) and still successive Quebec government impose French language on us.

I live off Sherbrooke St. W in Westmount near NDG. This area was once entirely English and are still mostly anglophone. You can still find English-only "STOP" signs. You can also find street signs where "Ave." has been crossed out and corner stores where "corner store" has been spray-painted out in favour of depanneur.

What is that? Francophones "reclaiming" their province? Guess what...the PQ may have imposed this on us but our community is strong. Even if this province separates in 2009 I will stay here and fight for anglophone rights.

I completely support francophone rights for self-determination and I acknowledge that we anglos were not pleasant 50 years ago and supported crackdowns on French. Francophones had the right to complain then...why do they not listen to our complaints now? Instead they oppress us.

It is not right and it is not fair. And I do not support it and I cannot condone it.

[Blackguard]

Even IN Quebec French is still the minority language since Quebec being part of confederation calculations must be based on all of Canada.

Because you decide so?

Quebec has been helped tremendously by the federal government of Canada and Canadian tax-payers and would be fair to say without this constant source of help Quebec would simply not exist as a productive province.

Many provinces rely on the federal government to survive - a fact that is depicted by Ontario's premier who is starting to speak out the province's discontent. Ontario is paying the cost of maintaining an inneficient federation on artificial life support.

As a matter of fact an independent Quebec would generate surplus while maintaining the same services to it's population as both levels of governement are presently providing. By staying in the federation, Quebec has two choices : going into dept or reducing it's services to the population.

see here : http://www.pq.org/tmp2005/finances_english.pdf

It should be noted Quebec is the only province to declare it's French language as 'officially French' and should be noted that nowhere in Quebec is an policy concerning bilingualism.

Exactly. Deal with it.

What the federal government did with official languages that is creating official bilingualism within it's federal entities can be viewed as outright linguistic discrimination since this policy was unilaterally implemented WITHOUT the consent of Canadian citizen's.

Quebec's language Bill-101 or otherwise known as it's French Charter also discriminates aginst English speakers in Quebec.

It is not discrimination. It is part of a people's aspirations to self determination, and to dictating it's terms on it's territories. Many countries declare the language of law and government in their constitutions.

Ontario hospitals also open their doors to MANY Quebec residents event though Quebec excludes Ontario residents and is the only province in Canada that does not pay medical procedures at a lower rate than other hospitals concerning Quebec residents who flood Ontario hospitals.

The Ontario governement bills the Quebec governement for the treatment. The process is super efficient on Ontario's part, and should be an exemple to the rest.

Quebec's health system is being stiffled by the federal government's refusal to transfer funds. Instead the federal government is amassing surplusses which it does not have the power to spend without stepping into provincial jurisdiction.

But even with this francophone groups are pushing for Ontario to become officially bilingual even though their numbers are only represented by a single digit and back in Quebec draconian undemocratic language policies are alive and well.

And you are advocating for bilingual policies in another province, for a linguistic group that represents 8% of the population, clustered in ghettoes on the Montreal Island.

[Blackguard]

I guess that's because Americans never had a problem like Canada unifying their country.

Except maybe for a small incident they call "The Civil War".

[Blackguard]

I live off Sherbrooke St. W in Westmount near NDG. This area was once entirely English and are still mostly anglophone. You can still find English-only "STOP" signs. You can also find street signs where "Ave." has been crossed out and corner stores where "corner store" has been spray-painted out in favour of depanneur.

What is that? Francophones "reclaiming" their province? Guess what...the PQ may have imposed this on us but our community is strong. Even if this province separates in 2009 I will stay here and fight for anglophone rights.

I completely support francophone rights for self-determination and I acknowledge that we anglos were not pleasant 50 years ago and supported crackdowns on French. Francophones had the right to complain then...why do they not listen to our complaints now? Instead they oppress us.

It is not right and it is not fair. And I do not support it and I cannot condone it.

I understand. You are a victim of racism, of petty acts of vandalism, something anybody should be angry about. I am certain most people in Quebec, as well as most Canadians, are repelled by such behavior on any cultural minority - I know I am.

English have dominated the rest of the world for so long it is hard to beleive when they get bullied in their turn. And they don't like being thought of as a cultural minority, something which historically they are not accustomed to. But I know it is true and it happens in Montreal - things don't always go smoothly.

But for the most part, English people in Montreal are treated with the respect they deserve, and their unilingualism is very well accomodated. Such incidents as you describe are very rare.

[tml12]

I live off Sherbrooke St. W in Westmount near NDG. This area was once entirely English and are still mostly anglophone. You can still find English-only "STOP" signs. You can also find street signs where "Ave." has been crossed out and corner stores where "corner store" has been spray-painted out in favour of depanneur.

What is that? Francophones "reclaiming" their province? Guess what...the PQ may have imposed this on us but our community is strong. Even if this province separates in 2009 I will stay here and fight for anglophone rights.

I completely support francophone rights for self-determination and I acknowledge that we anglos were not pleasant 50 years ago and supported crackdowns on French. Francophones had the right to complain then...why do they not listen to our complaints now? Instead they oppress us.

It is not right and it is not fair. And I do not support it and I cannot condone it.

I understand. You are a victim of racism, of petty acts of vandalism, something anybody should be angry about. I am certain most people in Quebec, as well as most Canadians, are repelled by such behavior on any cultural minority - I know I am.

English have dominated the rest of the world for so long it is hard to beleive when they get bullied in their turn. And they don't like being thought of as a cultural minority, something which historically they are not accustomed to. But I know it is true and it happens in Montreal - things don't always go smoothly.

But for the most part, English people in Montreal are treated with the respect they deserve, and their unilingualism is very well accomodated. Such incidents as you describe are very rare.

Most francophones are very polite to me when I go to very francophone parts of the city. I used to also have a place on Rue Beaubien near the Beaubien Metro. No doubt that is a very francophone area. But when I was over there people were very respectful to me. I explained that I was learning French for the first time in CEGEP because before that my primary education was in English, etc. and most people understood.

My only issue is government policy. Is it really a big deal for "corner store" to be painted out in favour of depanneur? Does the French really need to be 2/3 time as big?

I mean, Blackguard, I don't know whether or not you are francophone, etc. but surely you must admit parts of this can get silly.

[Blackguard]

And what idenity is that Bakunin? Quebecers live no differently than anywhere else in Canada and are basically granted the right to use your French language from Canadians who fund all the bills to allow you to do that.

Quebequers live very differently. They speak another language, watch their own television shows, listen to their own music, organise their society according to their own values. The fact that a large part of Canada is programmed to denie this is part of the reason for our constitutionnal problems.

Your mother country France and the 'Treaty of Paris' left NO French rights on the North American continent.

You have no nation and never did.

That is such a bizare conclusion. Do you really think that a people's existence is determined by treaties?

"All right folks, show's over, you no longer exist: it's written here, on this paper we brought from Europe.".

[Blackguard]

I mean, Blackguard, I don't know whether or not you are francophone, etc. but surely you must admit parts of this can get silly.

I agree, it sometimes get silly, and people, even French people, can get very pissed off by some of the policies de l'Office de la Langue Française.

But where do you draw the line? What do you decide is a big deal and what is a little deal?

French was declining in Quebec. Bill 101 seems to be helping slow this decline, and even sometimes reverse it. Immigrants now sometimes learn French before Enlgish. It is serving it's purpose. How else would you have done it?

[Leafless]

Blackguard

While acknowledging you have certain constitutional rights in your province you fail to acknowledge the tremendus support the federal government has put into Quebec to support the use of your minority language but fail to express any gratitude for this. You should remeber it is your province that is the minority language not the ROC.

Some estimates have ranged as high as $600-billion dollars to support everthing associated with bilingualism since it's introduction on top of a multitude of policies and programs within Quebec .

If you fail to see the prime ministers and the tax payers of this country as being Quebec's salvation then there is no use even attempting to debate this situation any further as as far as your concerned you are masters of your own destiny despite the help of the ROC and will rule as you choose according to you.

[seabee]

French was declining in Quebec. Bill 101 seems to be helping slow this decline,

Just a question of historical details, but before Law 101 (as a Bill is called after being signed by the Lieutenant-Governor) was Law 22, passed by the Liberal government under Robert Bourassa, and which became effective on Jully 31, 1974, a few years before the Parti Québécois first came to power. Bourassa's intent was apparently to placate independentist arguments about the protection of the french language. However, some of it's article were ambiguous, and both sides protested, claiming the new law was thus written to favor the other side. The law so infuritated the anglophone community that several anglophone MNAs in the liberal party, including one or two ministers resigned. At the time of the 1976 elections, the anglophones refused to vote liberal, many opting for the newly formed Equality Party, and thus opened the gate for a PQ government. Law 101, a very long and technical law, though respecting the intentions of Law 22, was essentially a rather successful attempt at removing the ambiguities.

[seabee]

No one ever questionned the right for all people to speak French in what is now called the Province of Québec (it was then called "le Canada") until its violent conquest by the British in 1760. The fact that what is now called Canada has any anglophone population is the result of British violence, many aspects of which can be considered as crimes against humanity.

[tml12]

I mean, Blackguard, I don't know whether or not you are francophone, etc. but surely you must admit parts of this can get silly.

I agree, it sometimes get silly, and people, even French people, can get very pissed off by some of the policies de l'Office de la Langue Française.

But where do you draw the line? What do you decide is a big deal and what is a little deal?

French was declining in Quebec. Bill 101 seems to be helping slow this decline, and even sometimes reverse it. Immigrants now sometimes learn French before Enlgish. It is serving it's purpose. How else would you have done it?

I would need to do a lot of research...especially in the context of the 1970s before I was coherent...before I could answer that.

I certainly would not have been as discriminatory as the PQ was towards the anglophone community here.

[Leafless]

seabee

You wrote " Law-101 a very long and technical law, though respecting the intentions of law 22, was essentially a rather successful attempt at removing the ambiguities."

And I might add freedom of speech, through oppression and discrimination.

You also wrote- " The fact what is now called Canada has any anglophone population is the result of British violence, many aspects of which can be considered as crimes against humanity."

Give me a break, England and France had been going at it for a long time.

Maybe if France would have populated New France instead of simply pursuing fish and furs to send back home to France, French perhaps would be the language of North America.

Don't forget it was John Cabot who after discovering America returned to England and after France learned that then sent an expediton under Jack Cartier back the same way of Cabot and claimed the land.

There was an initial argument all along concerning ownership of what is now North America.

[seabee]

And I might add freedom of speech, through oppression and discrimination

The federal Supreme Court of Canada has ruled time and again that you are wrong.

Give me a break, England and France had been going at it for a long time.

Then the matter should have been settled in Europe. The genocides of the Acadians in 1755-1763 and of the Canadiens in 1759-1760 were absolutely unjustified; they were supremacist acts.

[Blackguard]

I agree with you Leafless : we do not need to argue further if your definite conslusion is that the people of Quebec need to thank the rest of Canada because they are allowed to speak French. In fact I think it is a hillariously preposterous proposition