VIA Rail tough on kirpan's

[PocketRocket]

This reminds me of an incident which occured on (appropriately enough) halloween, several years ago.

I had dressed as a klingon, and had made a crude replica of one of those nasty-looking Klingon knives with the little winged-blades near the base.

The replica was cut from an old aluminum serving-tray.

Very soft, thin metal.

I had stopped into a fast-food place, and at the counter were 2 cops.

One of them saw this huge blade hanging from my belt, and he actually put one hand on his gun as he told me that I'm not allowed to wear something like that, even as part of a costume.

I set his fears at ease when I took a long step back, slowly took up the knife, and proceeded to ram it into my chest.

It bent in half.

I then straightened it out, by hand, while asking if that was okay.

Both cops got a chuckle, as did I.

However, perception being what it is, a less patient or more high-strung cop could have caused me some serious grief before discovering the completely harmless nature of the "weapon".

[PSingh]

Hi again!

Before I answer the specific questions that RB asked, I would like to point out that the legal questions that are beginning to appear on this thread have already been addressed in many Kirpan court cases. I am not a lawyer and hence will not try to argue the legal case for it on this board, but I can forward you to the papers if you like. Basically, the verdict has been that Kirpans can be carried by 'baptised' Sikhs. Although it may be irrelevant in our case being Canadians, prominent cases in the UK and US have also reached this conclusion.

Now, onwards to the points raised by RB:

I mean if are contending that this Kirpan is hidden for starters how come people are seeing it.

It has never been stated (legally or otherwise) that a Kirpan must be hidden...I do so personally, but it is a personal choice whether the individual wears it over or under their clothes. I find that where there are large populations of Sikhs, it is a common practice to wear it over since the non-Sikh community is more aware.

Also, I wanted to ask if the Kirpan was accidentally dropped and someone is hurt who takes responsibility? You understand about public panic and outrage.

I would hope that the perpetrator of the act is responsible and the law is fully brought to bear. The Sikh who let the Kirpan get away from his/her possession should also be dealt with, as this is a transgression for a 'baptised' (Kirpan-carrying) Sikh. I would not consider the Sikh a criminal however. Again, if a person is going to commit violence, getting a weapon is the easiest part and it should not be important that they got their hands on a Kirpan.

I would also like to emphasize that Kirpan is generally quite secure so the chances of it dropping are quite low to nil.

Also, I wanted to find out if you have the statistics available for the number of incidences that Kirpan was used e.g. drawn to defend, uphold law, dignity and morality

Then, would you personally draw your Kirpan under any circumstances.

I'm sorry, but I do not have any statistics. I'm not sure if any are collected. Personally, in dire situations (i.e. murder, rape, etc. in progress) where no alternative is available and immediate help is required, I would feel obligated to act. Reaching for my Kirpan would not be my first instinct, but if I could help somebody in trouble, I would.

Having said that, please do not take this out of context. This kind of case has never happened in Canada and Kirpans have been kept out of any confrontations (as far as I'm aware). This is strictly hypothetical and the situation would indeed be pretty out-of-control to warrant such an act.

I think that general prohibition of Kirpan is justified and common sense. Kirpan is already not allowed on planes (but you don’t complain) greyhound coaches, via based on your info, and some schools. On the flip side when the argument becomes religion, logic hath gone awry

You are entitled to your views regarding 'common sense' and 'religion vs. logic' and I will not comment on this. However, Sikhs have tried to lobby against giving up their Kirpans in the situations you've stated, including planes. As of now, Sikhs do not wear their Kirpans on planes since all passengers go through baggage checks and metal detectors. Any other case, it generally ends up in court or a settlement is reached beforehand.

I mean can I buy a small gun which I can carry in my purse, have all my millions of fellow Christian followers in sync and decide I don’t really intend to use guns as a weapon, for me a gun symbolizes freedom and liberty of humanity. I make this announcement even though I clearly know guns are weapons

As I stated in a previous post, though we may not agree with different views, I hope Canada treats all issues the same way it has treated the Sikh Kirpan. Discussion and learning takes place before decisions are reached.

If it was a genuine requirement of Christianity to carry a gun and history showed that it was not a threat, then I would have no problem with this hypothetical case. Rather, I would consider a 'gun-carrying' Christian harmless since Christianity discourages criminal activity and a 'gun-carrying' Christian would be a strict believer of this credo.

Again, a Kirpan is carried only by a small minority of Sikhs who are 'baptised' and have taken vows to follow a very specific code of conduct which discourages any sort of criminal behaviour. They also wear 4 other assorted 'articles of faith' in addition to the Kirpan.

Regarding your last point about taxpayer dollars being inappropriately allocated, we all have similar complaints. Such is the nature of the country we live in; some of our money is always used towards things we don't support. I personally believe education in this regard is a good thing.

As I stated in my first post, I only came on this board to introduce a new perspective to the discussion. Personally I believe this is a perception issue which is addressed by education. I live in a multi-cultural area that is quite comfortable with Kirpans and similar areas exist across Canada, so it is not an impossibility.

I doubt I have much more to contribute to this discussion as I've already made my viewpoints clear. I can answer any specific questions you may still have about Sikhs, but I want to avoid engaging in lengthy debates. We all know where we stand and have presented our views, it is up to the individual to make their own conclusions.

-P

[Argus]

Having said that, please do not take this out of context.  This kind of case has never happened in Canada and Kirpans have been kept out of any confrontations (as far as I'm aware)

There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.

Kirpan's in street fights

Mr Valtoha said it all started when Trishan Singh presiding officer of the booth, tried to press the EVM ballot button in favour of the Congress on behalf of aged villagers on the pretext of helping them. This action was opposed by poll agent Gurmej. The Khemkaran police was informed by workers in this regard but it failed to take any action, he alleged.

In the meantime, Anup Singh entered the booth forcibly and started beating up Gurmej. Balwinder, who was in a nearby booth, tried to intervene. However, a Congress worker, Daljit Singh, pulled out his kirpan and stabbed Balwinder, who later succumbed to his injuries.

Poll worker stabbed by Kirpan

The police said Joginder Pal Singh, a resident of Sohana village, was on a scooter when he was hit by another scooterist coming from the opposite direction near the Sohana octroi point.

The two got into an argument following the accident.

Then the other person reportedly took out his kirpan and stabbed Joginder Singh in a fit of anger.

Kirpan used in traffic argument

[PSingh]

Hi Argus,

I really have no defence for those cases in India...I hope they were all charged and given appropriate sentences, but that's for the judicial system to decide once the facts come out (I always doubt Indian media, they have a notorious record of writing nonsense). Even so, India has no problems with Sikhs and Kirpans...not sure if this means anything.

Regarding the Metro Toronto cases, it does not say anywhere 'who' was using the Kirpans (in streetfights, etc.). Was it a Sikh or just somebody who got their hands on a 'knife'? It seems no different than normal gang activity and many youngsters are involved in this kind of thing.

Again, I will not deny that the Kirpan 'could' be used as a weapon, but it is not for that purpose. If some people have used it as such, then they are criminals. If we banned everything that could be used as a weapon, then sporting equipment would also have to go. Overall, Kirpans have a better record and are not a threat to Canadians (I didn't know about these cases though, so thanks for that).

Either way, the first website you posted is a good source to see how Canada has dealt with the Kirpan even in light of these facts. It's a good read, but I don't want to repeat it.

-P

[Melanie_]

As I stated in my first post, I only came on this board to introduce a new perspective to the discussion. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PSingh - you may have come on the board to discuss this particular issue, but I hope you stick around to discuss other issues, as well.

[RB]

Then, would you personally draw your Kirpan under any circumstances.

Here is a response I would have wish upon.

If I was wearing my cross that can also be a potential weapon and I needed to help a distressed person - my first instinct would be to kiss my cross - and pray "lord give me strenght" thats where the force of power to fight off evil lies. I would put my cross in my pocket.

I mean you derive the power, and source of strenght in carrying those symbolic objects.

If I start prancing around like a ninja and hitting folks with my cross I can become a she-devil then anti-christ

Is there such a thing as anti-Sikh?