EDUCATION and JOBS

[Argus]

I belive it was an ivy league history professor who claimed the value of a degree in history, is simply that you can criticaly read a Newspaper. It might seem like alot of money to invest, only to teach people how think critically, but given todays society, people who can read a newspaper are a rare treasure. If history can teach people only to think critically, to read a newspaper, then we as society have made a great gain. I know alot of people on the right side of the political spectrum say, everyone should be forced to take an economics course, I understand the principle behind this, and I would like to continue this principle to suggest that if a B.A means you understand your surroundings even a little better, society as a whole will be better.

Critical thinking is merely a high-fallutin' term for common sense and judgement. And while I respect those who want to educate themselves more about their world I can't say that I've noticed a lot better judgement or "critical thinking" from BA grads. Sorry. I'm not entirely certain that critical thought is even a part of most general BA courses. One can be exposed to literature, art, politics and historical facts and still take away all the wrong ideas depending on ones open mind and the capability of ones professors.

[margrace]

Very good discussion you young'uns but as an old lady of 71 my experience has been the following.

A good education teaches a person to think, to critically evaluate situations. An old saying is if you don't know your history you will be forced to relive it or words to that effect.

I went to a one room school, with at one time 8 pupils in about 6 grades. We learned every day in every subject because the teacher had to teach at every level.

Some of the things I have observed over my lifetime. Back in the 1960's in our area there was a new technical highschool built but the pervading belief was that it was only for dummies. To have your children seen as just as good as anyone else's they had to go to the general high schools.

Univercity was a limited experience for a lot of people my children's age.

I hear young women criticising or not exercising their right to vote or a voice in what goes on. They have no concept to how hard women worked to get that right. The same with men, one needs to know the fights and sacrifices that got them what they have today.

Someone needed to tell Mr. Bush for instance that the situations in the East that he was going to settle overnight have been ongoing for over 4000 years. I hear people calling the Moors backward peoples, likewise the Chinese. They need to read a little history and find out who the backwards peoples were.

Well thats all my sermon for now

[Concerned]

Funny Slavik, I agree on nearly every point you raise there too, I'm pissed of at all the freeloaders in society. Some limited examples:

- Fat people that think its ok (they cost us too much)

- Smokers (they cost us too much)

- Alcoholics (they cost us too much)

But why clog up our limited resources of classrooms and teachers with people that will never use that education to contribute to society.

I belive it was an ivy league history professor who claimed the value of a degree in history, is simply that you can criticaly read a Newspaper. It might seem like alot of money to invest, only to teach people how think critically, but given todays society, people who can read a newspaper are a rare treasure. If history can teach people only to think critically, to read a newspaper, then we as society have made a great gain. I know alot of people on the right side of the political spectrum say, everyone should be forced to take an economics course, I understand the principle behind this, and I would like to continue this principle to suggest that if a B.A means you understand your surroundings even a little better, society as a whole will be better.

Hmm Slavik, I like your idealism and what a great place this world would be if we could all have degrees and all that. But there is a limited resource, over utilised as is, and we have to make sure only the most qualified and dedicated have access to this resource (being university spots).

Are you taking History? If so, great, I'm sure your doing well with it and all that. I'm not bashing all BA people (a BA is part of my current program)!

But its not worth the cost to our society, and to people like you and I in overcrowded classrooms, to have all our welders or plumbers be experts in 17th century poetry. I hope you see where I'm coming from. There just aren't enough jobs out there that require expertise in many of these fields, or jobs that require critical thinking. Too many undergrad degree holders end up working in drycleaners and resturants for many years. Why? Because there are too many of them!

Geoffry, darling, without critical thinkers in our midst, most of us would think like you. Narrow minded and bull-headed....now there's a combination for you. That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society. It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

[Concerned]

I belive it was an ivy league history professor who claimed the value of a degree in history, is simply that you can criticaly read a Newspaper. It might seem like alot of money to invest, only to teach people how think critically, but given todays society, people who can read a newspaper are a rare treasure. If history can teach people only to think critically, to read a newspaper, then we as society have made a great gain. I know alot of people on the right side of the political spectrum say, everyone should be forced to take an economics course, I understand the principle behind this, and I would like to continue this principle to suggest that if a B.A means you understand your surroundings even a little better, society as a whole will be better.

Critical thinking is merely a high-fallutin' term for common sense and judgement. And while I respect those who want to educate themselves more about their world I can't say that I've noticed a lot better judgement or "critical thinking" from BA grads. Sorry. I'm not entirely certain that critical thought is even a part of most general BA courses. One can be exposed to literature, art, politics and historical facts and still take away all the wrong ideas depending on ones open mind and the capability of ones professors.

This response indicates that you are not unversity educated. It shows in most of your posts !!

[geoffrey]

Geoffry, darling, without critical thinkers in our midst, most of us would think like you. Narrow minded and bull-headed....now there's a combination for you. That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society. It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

I'm critically thinking about this myself. Why have our coal miners and auto manufacturers university educated? I agree that whatever you take is good, if you plan on doing mentally related work! Critical thinking is good. It's also just useless for physical labourers to be wasting their time in university, I'm sure they'd agree.

You don't factor in the concept that most people don't want to go to take liberal arts degrees.

This response indicates that you are not unversity educated. It shows in most of your posts !!

I'd say your spelling indicates something.

Mine's no better, don't worry.

[Argus]

Very good discussion you young'uns but as an old lady of 71 my experience has been the following.

A good education teaches a person to think, to critically evaluate situations. An old saying is if you don't know your history you will be forced to relive it or words to that effect.

True. Unfortunately, most educations deal very little with history - if at all.

Some of the things I have observed over my lifetime. Back in the 1960's in our area there was a new technical highschool built but the pervading belief was that it was only for dummies. To have your children seen as just as good as anyone else's they had to go to the general high schools.

That was probably before plumbers and electricians commanded higher salaries than white collar workers.

Someone needed to tell Mr. Bush for

A Haaarvard grad, btw.

instance that the situations in the East that he was going to settle overnight have been ongoing for over 4000 years. I hear people calling the Moors backward peoples, likewise the Chinese. They need to read a little history and find out who the backwards peoples were.

Use of the past tense. Yes, we know there was a time when the Chinese and "Moors" were more advanced than the primitve Europeans. That time is long past. By any measure of cultural sophistication the "Moors" are backward, as are many of the Asians (though they're improving slowly).

[Argus]

Geoffry, darling, without critical thinkers in our midst, most of us would think like you. Narrow minded and bull-headed....now there's a combination for you. That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society. It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

Talk about cliche'd thinking.

Yes, education is good. But it doesn't come only from university, and often enough, it doesn't come from university at all. I've met far too many university grads whose minds never moved past their own selfish aims, who are blithely unaware and unconcerned about anything that doesn't personally affect them, whose knowledge base is so limited they are incapable of carrying on a conversation about anything more sophisticated than the more popular reality shows and video games. For that matter, examine public figures, dumb ones, who are university grads. I'm sure you can think of more than a few.

Critical thinking starts with an open mind - into which information is poured. If you don't have the former, and the latter consists of politically correct poets and artists, or the politicised opinions of second rate professors, well, you're not going to become a great thinker.

[Argus]

Critical thinking is merely a high-fallutin' term for common sense and judgement. And while I respect those who want to educate themselves more about their world I can't say that I've noticed a lot better judgement or "critical thinking" from BA grads. Sorry. I'm not entirely certain that critical thought is even a part of most general BA courses. One can be exposed to literature, art, politics and historical facts and still take away all the wrong ideas depending on ones open mind and the capability of ones professors.

This response indicates that you are not unversity educated. It shows in most of your posts !!

And your response indicates that critical thinking is a subject about which you have little personal experience.

[Argus]

That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society.

Within reason.

It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

Oh bollocks. Are you under the illusion that going to university makes one an intellectual? That it gives you a better awareness of society? I'm getting the idea you have very little life experience and a very small circle of acquaintances.

[margrace]

That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society.

Within reason.

It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

Oh bollocks. Are you under the illusion that going to university makes one an intellectual? That it gives you a better awareness of society? I'm getting the idea you have very little life experience and a very small circle of acquaintances.

I think we are into boxing people again. Judgments of totality are just that. I know people who have little formal education but read everything they get their hands on and then there are some well educated idiots out there. The fact is that a good education in the main teaches one to think. There are some uneducated people out there in places of power who are downright scarry.

[Concerned]

That's the cost to my society I would like to avoid. I'm all for the university degree, an educated population makes for a better society.

Within reason.

It doesn't matter what you take, you will contribute to society by your awareness, your ability to understand, and your valuable intellectual input, regardless of your degree.

Oh bollocks. Are you under the illusion that going to university makes one an intellectual? That it gives you a better awareness of society? I'm getting the idea you have very little life experience and a very small circle of acquaintances.

Awe shucks, whad'ya mean Argus, everything I need to know I learned from my dog, my skateboard, and Alex Tribec !!

[scribblet]

I agree that a university ed. is no guarrantee of a job. What we really neeed are more trade schools and apprenticeship positions. Years ago, a student could take auto mechanics during the last two years of high school and have them applied to the apprenticeship. We need more skilled trades people and construction workers, but its too hard to get into an apprenticeship, unions have it tied up.

I would rather see the gov't sponsor trade schools and apprenticeships than increase university funding. Many more students would probably stay in high school and graduate if they could learn a trade and have an apprenticehip when graduating.

[margrace]

I agree that a university ed. is no guarrantee of a job. What we really neeed are more trade schools and apprenticeship positions. Years ago, a student could take auto mechanics during the last two years of high school and have them applied to the apprenticeship. We need more skilled trades people and construction workers, but its too hard to get into an apprenticeship, unions have it tied up.

I would rather see the gov't sponsor trade schools and apprenticeships than increase university funding. Many more students would probably stay in high school and graduate if they could learn a trade and have an apprenticehip when graduating.

Very good idea but first you have to change public perception. and it sure hasn't changed in my lifetime. Good wages for plummer etc. If this is so why does Ontario have such a problem getting carpenters, plumbers etc. The main problem is still the belief that unless my kid has a univercity education than I have somehow failed.

If one could sit around a dinner table with every family and listen to the discussions then you would find where the beliefs come from. Our then supper table was a grand debate, its a wonder anyone digested their food. When I married I discovered that my inlaws never talked at the table and that my husband finally admitted that he did not like my families mealtime discussions. But then he admitted in his next breath that his family were very prejudices against new ideas and people.

[geoffrey]

I agree that a university ed. is no guarrantee of a job. What we really neeed are more trade schools and apprenticeship positions. Years ago, a student could take auto mechanics during the last two years of high school and have them applied to the apprenticeship. We need more skilled trades people and construction workers, but its too hard to get into an apprenticeship, unions have it tied up.

I would rather see the gov't sponsor trade schools and apprenticeships than increase university funding. Many more students would probably stay in high school and graduate if they could learn a trade and have an apprenticehip when graduating.

Very good idea but first you have to change public perception. and it sure hasn't changed in my lifetime. Good wages for plummer etc. If this is so why does Ontario have such a problem getting carpenters, plumbers etc. The main problem is still the belief that unless my kid has a univercity education than I have somehow failed.

If one could sit around a dinner table with every family and listen to the discussions then you would find where the beliefs come from. Our then supper table was a grand debate, its a wonder anyone digested their food. When I married I discovered that my inlaws never talked at the table and that my husband finally admitted that he did not like my families mealtime discussions. But then he admitted in his next breath that his family were very prejudices against new ideas and people.

Actually margrace, I think the tide is changing, at least out here in the wild west. Of my group of friends in high school, I'd say 25% went on to trade type programs, in oil and gas or in traditional trades like carpentry and things like that. Maybe its because out here a skilled carpenter can make $100k+ a year easy. I'm also from a rather affluent area and these were affluent kids, with doctors and lawyers as moms and dads. It seemed like the parents support their decisions too.

Maybe its just out here? I don't know.