More Tax Dollars to be Wasted

[Iknowbest]

This Liberal Government is at it again. They have no idea, no plan, nothing, other than to waste over the next 10 or so years billions of our tax dollars on the Kyoto accord.

Canada's contribution to world pollution is barely 2% whereas the USA and Mexico is much much higher and neither of these countries have signed or are interested in the Kyoto accord.

It gets better. The previous Minister of the Environment Herb Dhaliwal from Richmond BC owned two SUV's which are pigs aka very high polluting vehicles and could care less about the criticism about his contribution to pollution.

If any of you ever come to Ottawa go to the parking lots of MP's and Cabinet Ministers or their residences and count the number of polluting SUV's. Bring a calculator.

So this new wasting of tax dollars will bring us to:

Jane Stewart HRDC scandal = $1.4 Billion annually

Gun Registry scandal = $1.2 Billion annually

Bi-lingualism nonsense = $1.5 Billion annually

CIDA un-audited = $1 Billion Annually

Scrapping Helicopters fine = $500 million

Adcsam scandal = $250 million min.

So we have $5.1 billion wasted each year on nothing absolutely nothing and add to that the Kyoto stupidity of $1.4 Billion and another $1 billion for a national day care system which we don't need which brings us to $7.5 Billion wasted annually plus over a billion dollars on other incompetent and corrupt issues.

So what is next?

Domestic kitchen knife registry, no one can live past 70 years of age, criminals can only remain behind bars for 6 months, victims of crime are not allowed to sue or complain and on and on and on.

Folks vote LIberal so that this kind of corruption and socialism can continue until it becomes 100% communism. If you think that is not where we are headed then you are accepting all of those billions wasted as a good investment in what who the hell knows.

:angry:

[Unpolarized]

Kyoto indeed has not been implemented very well by our Federal government. They seem almost scared to do anything substantial and therefore are waffling and, in my opinion, not being as effective as the should or could be. They may be even wasting money - it will be interesting too see how effective the One Tonne Challenge Program is going to be.

But just because our they are doing a poor job of getting Kyoto off the ground, does not mean that they should give up. There is no doubt in my mind, and in the mind of most of the scientific community, that we are damaging our environment and that climate change is real. Just because the US has not signed on does not mean that Canada should not. One mistake must not follow another.

As for politicians driving big cars. Well, I believe that I should be an honest person and never tell a lie. However, I have been known too. Does that make me a hypocrite or just a person who is living in a world of contradictions. We should all drive smaller cars, live more lightly on the planet, be nicer but when we don't we should not say, "Well, I can be perfect so what is the use of trying at all."

[Iknowbest]

SUV's are pigs except those from Toyota or Honda.

Big cars are ok because they do not pollute like SUV's do.

The Kyoto acord from a Canadian perspective should be abolished because it has no value or worth to Canada. 2% pollution is all we generate. Why waste Billions of dollars on just about nothing. It makes absolutely no sense. If you want to mail a brochure to the general public and ask industry to co-operate on this 2% stuff then do it in black and white. Cost maybe 1 or 2 million dollars. But no way is the dumb bunch in Ottawa going to use common sense.

Try this. The USA I think is around a 22% contributor and Mexico around 29% of pollution to the earth's atmosphere. Russia and many countries in Europe are the leaders.

The Ohio Valley in the USA is the number one contributor to air pollution in the southern part of the Province of Ontario. Smog, bad air alerts etc are the result of the crap that emanates from the USA. What can we do to stop it? Nothing!

Our country is rapidly going down the toilet with a total lack of common sense.

[Unpolarized]

But think about what you are saying. You acknowledge that there is a problem but are saying because we are not doing a good job of responding to it now, that we should stop trying.

You are correct in saying that Canada is just a part of the problem but, nonetheless, we are a part of it. The US is going to do what it is going to do but hopefully, as we have in the past, we can play a bit of leadership role. I believe that when a more moderate government comes into the US, that they will begin some pretty earnest measures to respond to climate change. Ultimately, the cost of doing nothing is going to outweigh the cost of taking action. Ask the insurance industry and they will tell you that climate change is a serious threat to the viability of their businesses.

Again, i think the critism is our government is valid. But you want them to call a spade a spade to take some strong action. I agree but i am still pleased that they are doing something and hopefully it will lead to something better. I wish they were stronger out of the gate but at least we are in the race.

[willy]

You acknowledge that there is a problem but are saying because we are not doing a good job of responding to it now, that we should stop trying.

This is the same logic that allowed Jean to create the add scam fiasco.

Note the problem and then evaluate the plausible contributions we can make. i.e. new regulations, add campaigns, development guidelines.

We have another example in the national child care program. The problem is general access to child care and lack of affordability to low income and single parents.

The Liberal answer is to set up a national delivery system by non profit and government sector organizations for all Canadians with children. They are hitting a thumb tack with a sledge hammer.

Is this the best way to fix the stated problem?

I would suggest a mixed solution that does not involve direct delivery.

1. Means tested direct subsidies (low income funding)

2. Tax incentives for businesses that operate daycares and grant access to pay for non profitable expertise.

3. Tax breaks for middle class families so they have choices around how the deliver child care.

This is a dollar in dollar out solution. The Liberals are willing to use up our tax money in bureaucracy. For every dollar of delivery we will have a dollar of administration.

[Guest eureka]

If, INB, you would attempt to lard your "logic" with even a semblance of truth, you might say something worth discussing.

The "USA contributes 22%; Mexico, 29%; and Russia and many countries in Europe are the leaders (in atmospheric pollution) is the most asinine commentary I have yet seen. It goes far beyond denial

The United States is far and away the world leader in "greenhouse Gases." Nobody else comes close.

So Canada produces only 2%. We sure do punch above our weight, don't we? That is about five times our proportion of the world population.

Should every other 1 percenter or 2 percenter also ignore its responsibilities to the future. That would make up most of the world and push our problems onto the generation that will be trying to stem the floods.

[kimmy]

Welcome! I hope that you are, indeed, unpolarized! We desperately need more unpolarized people at this forum!

On to your message:

Kyoto indeed has not been implemented very well by our Federal government.  They seem almost scared to do anything substantial and therefore are waffling and, in my opinion, not being as effective as the should or could be.

I am in agreement. Aside from asking nicely, we've seen no action from the government on actually meeting those commitments we've agreed to.

They may be even wasting money - it will be interesting too see how effective the One Tonne Challenge Program is going to be.

Indeed. I believe that people who care about greenhouse gases already do what they can to use fuel more efficiently. People who don't lead energy-efficient lives probably know about greenhouse gases but just don't care.

Personally, seeing Rick Mercer's annoying face on my TV makes me want to go out and burn *more* fossil fuel in some form of protest. But I digress.

But just because our they are doing a poor job of getting Kyoto off the ground, does not mean that they should give up.

I firmly believe that the government will have to do something firm, bold, and potentially unpopular to make people change their habits. A flat carbon tax on each liter of gasoline? An environmental levy placed on each gas-guzzling vehicle sold? And instead of general revenue, the money would go into an environmental fund to finance projects like (for instance) offering incentives for people who wish to upgrade their homes with better insulation and high-efficiency furnaces and appliances.

Frankly I no longer believe that Paul Martin has the stomach to do so, and certainly not while he has a minority government.

-kimmy

[Unpolarized]

As I review this thread and think a bit more about IKB original post, I think he has some important points. Particularly, is Kyoto a farce? As someone who believes in the threat of climate change, I firmly believe individuals needs to take action and that government is going to have to regulate and then live with and enforce the regulations.

Kyoto is not enough to stop the tide (or the rising water). It might slow it down but it will not stop anything. We have such a long way to go and if we really want our planet to survive then our lives will need to change. That concept scares the daylights out of me, our corporate leaders and our government. They know they need to do something more effective but lack the leadership to do so. The polical reality is that any proposed change probably would not fly anyway- a minority government, strong corporate interests and a public who knows about climate change but really is more interested in getting a good deal at Walmart would surely sink it. Even those of us who try reduce our emissions (like me) commute in my shiny new car or consume too much. Kyoto is a farce in that it does not force me to live differently, it does not start the process of restructuring that needs to happen and it does conceptualize how the changes can occur without creating chaos.

However, I remain hopeful that its a start and starting is just as important as finishing.

[Guest eureka]

How can Kyoto be considered a farce? The world is, in large measure, attempting to implement the agreement. Several countries are well ahead of their committments and some, Britain and Germany most notably have already committed to far more ambitious goals.

The only farce around Kyoto is a North American media that allows false scientific and political denial of proven science to overwhelm truth.

It is already too late to stop damaging climate change. It is not too late to slow it and to mitigate against the worst effects while bringing about the conditions for permanent reversal of the trends.

Climate scientists no longer make statements such as this will happenwithin ten or.. years. What they are now doing is putting timelines on the probabilities of each likely death in the process.

Coral reefs, for example will die completely with a further oceanic rise of between one and two degrees. That puts it in this decade. Various other things will happen with different changes and at different times.

We can stop the process in time to stop some but not others. Or, who really knows. Perhaps it is not too late for anything major if the world can just rid itself of Bush in the very near future.

Possibly Europe should start the process with an ultimatum to America. If the Atlantic Conveyoy Belt collapses, Europe will become like Labrador and that could happen within ten or twenty years - of course it might not happen either.

However, how long will Europe put up with the Bush inspired probability. Blair is already showing some testiness towards George.

[Unpolarized]

Although this is a bit old, the problems of Kyoto remain the same. As for Britian and Germany, this article Interesting link gives the reasons for their reductions as more luck then any grand plan. There is no doubt that Europe is ahead of North America but "so what".

For me, the Kyoto Protocal is bit like recycling. It makes people and governments feel like they are doing something about the environment but really it takes the focus away from the real problem and issues. Its not a bad idea (really its a good idea) but its just a very small part of an overall strategy. For climate change, we need to restructure energy production, put subsidies in place for hybrid cars, force industry to choose alternative energy production, just to name a few ones.

Although Bush is a problem with the global approach to climate change, he is just part of it. Its so easy to look south and blame them but ultimately, our own government is not going to be able to live up to our own committments (probably). The US NEEDs to show leadership and take responsibility for their waste but lets make no mistake, by putting all our faith in Kyoto, we are not doing a whole bunch more than the US. We need to figure out how to move beyond Kyoto .

[PocketRocket]

Folks vote LIberal so that this kind of corruption and socialism can continue until it becomes 100% communism.

Naw. Vote Conservative, where angry hyperbole is King

[Guest eureka]

That Harvard article cites the same little band of naysayers who have been paid for their opinions. On a site, somewhere, there is a ;ostong of the most prominent deniers and their record in scientific investigation.

There is not now a single prominent scientist who is doing investigative work and denies change. That is also pure nonsense about Britain and Germany and again is from one of the American economic institutions with a personal axe to grind.

Your name for this issue actually bothers me. There should be no polarization only massive support for the evidence of the 99% or so of scientists who want immediate action. When you introduce economists from known American business supported institutions, then I wonder whet her you have already chosen the side that says "after me the flood."

You are also seeking to bring in the American excuses about Chima and India while you should know if you have done any research on the topic, that Kyoto does cover those countries. China, incidentally, has achieved huge reductions that this round of Kyoto did not call for. Its leaders know and they have the good fortune to be able to put their concerns into action without worrying about a few hundred wealthy men and women.

[Unpolarized]

I am not denying that climate change is occuring. I believe the scientific community. What I am saying, and so are many of those same scientist, is that Kyoto is not enough Link Another link

Kyoto is a small step but to go back to the main question, Is Kyoto a farce. I think farce is the wrong word but I also do not believe that it is the best thing in the world. Again, it actually may make people feel a sense of security against climate change when in fact we need to move well beyond Kyoto and make some pretty fundamental changes.

As for my name, I recently moved from Northern Canada (Nunavut)and I am literally unpolarized. I also think that is is important for debates not to be polarized in terms of left and right, so it was a bit of a play on words. My attempt at humour and cuteness.

[Iknowbest]

I think you are cute. I spent five years of my life in Resolute Bay and Chesterfield Inlet and saw a few cuties up there, actually there were a lot in Frobisher Bay, most of them worked for Bell Canada.

Now as for Kyoto from a Canadian influence it is a farce. When you are contributing less than 2% of the overall worlds pollution why spend billions of dollars on hmmm gee uhhh no plan, uhhh oops no goals uhhh no ideas well uhhh maybe uhhhh perhaps oh hell lets blow another $1.4Billion a year and buy the votes we need by pretending we are getting rid of our 2% contribution to world pollution.

That is how the Liberals operate. Photo Ops but no leadership and no common sense.

Remember get ready for The Kitchen Knife Registry so the Liberals can blow another $1Billion or more.

[Guest eureka]

Sorry to have seemed suspicious, but I liken those who say they have "open minds" on this issue now to Holocaust deniers. The consequences for humanity are going to be worse than a Hitlerian nightmare.

It is no question that Kyoto is not enough. That is why it is just a first round. However, that is no argument against Kyoto..Where else do we start except with the maximum that agreement can be obtained for? Remember that the US had also committed to Kyoto before Bush plunged the world into an even deeper danger than his nuclear ambitions threaten.

The world has agreed to commit to Kyoto and that is a fairly short term target. The next one will be stiffer. It is going to be too late to avert some events but pergaps they can be ameliorated and time bought for greater efforts.

Incidentally, with respect to the Harvard article, I did not read it properly since what you had suggested it said was what the American naysayers are propagandizing. I still have not.

However, McElroy is a prominent supporter of quick action. He is also a source of independent confirmation of the historic leevls of CO2. He confirmed that never in the past 420,000 years have concentrations been so high.

The complaints about Europe are completely unjustified. Britain and Germany had switched from coal to a great extent before the Kyoto base date. That made their task harder, not easier than the one that faces North America.

[Iknowbest]

One of the main reasons why the CO2 has been so high is because the tropical rain forests in Brazil and Costa Rica were decimated by greedy and uncaering pigs who have razed those forests. These two forests were the major cleansing agents for co2 emissions. Some of the companies that were and still are ( Costa Rica stopped it 14 years ago ) destroying this very important resource come from Quebec ( Yeah Yeah Yeah it is a fact ) and Europe. Many local natives in Brazil have been killed and medical scientists are very upset because a lot of natural elements that would be useful in curing serious diseases and saving lives were also destroyed.

Gotta love greed and corruption and Canada soon will be number one !!

In the meantime Canada need not take any action or spend a cent because we don't even qualifiy as a minor contributor. But your Liberals want to throw billions more of taxpayers dollars down a black hole and that is what they are going to do.

[Unpolarized]

Iknowbest Posted on Mar 18 2005, 11:48 AM

One of the main reasons why the CO2 has been so high is because the tropical rain forests in Brazil and Costa Rica were decimated by greedy and uncaering pigs who have razed those forests.

I don't know if this is true but lets assume it is. the problem with your approach is that you are taking a very country specific approach to this. However, global warming is a global problem not a country specific problem.

If you examine why the trees are being cut, it is probably as much to do with market factors, the production of beef for places like MacDonalds or other international trade issues as with the "greedy pigs". There is a problem, the climate is warming and you seem to believe that. Canada is part of it, maybe a small part globally ( I have not done the research to dispute your number but honestly your 2% number seems low since we are one the highest consumer of energy globably on a per capita basis) and we need to fix our problems and then show some leadership to the rest of the world. Its a lot easier to get someone else to do something if you actually do it yourself.

[Iknowbest]

The 2% number came from the experts at Environment Canada not the politicians who don't anything about anything.

As a nation we are insignificant and as far as global warming well that is still very much a myth because very few if any will not look at what the Canadian Arctic once was, a tropical forest and paradise and NO SNOW or ICE. Same for Ant-Arctica.

Now things are changing and some say oh it is global warming. ReallY? Where is the proof? Where is the historical data over the past five hundred years that proves it?

Where is the evidence that Canada needs to spend billions of taypayer dollars on Kyoto? HUH ! Forget Kyoto it is meaningless in Canada. 2% and we are going to spend Billions of dollars on WHAT? Where is the plan? Where are the goals? Where is anything?

There is a black hole and that is where the Billions of our dollars are going.

[Unpolarized]

IKB,

The 2% number came from the experts at Environment Canada not the politicians who don't anything about anything.

Do you have a link for this. I would like to see it and perhaps understand it a bit better.

I do not think that this is the place to argue about global warming. That is being done in another thread and I am not a scientist. I believe what the scientific mainstream is saying.

Simply, if you do not believe in global warming, then Kyoto is a farce. If you do believe in global warming, then Kyoto is not enough and we need to work harder on implementing it and go beyond it.

However, I would urge you to use the precautionary principle. I can not prove that Kyoto is a good thing ( the scientific community can prove some pretty startling trends and common sense should kick in at some point), but neither can you prove it is not. Lets be on the safe side.

[Iknowbest]

Articles are now surfacing in the printed media and a lot of scientists who have beeen studying this so-called global warming are now stating that earthlings cannot do anything about it because if it is "reallY" global warming it is caused by external solar activities. Politicians primarily the lefties who are so dumb that many of them now won't even drive under overhead power lines because it will cause cancer, ( christ if that was true I would encourage all lefty politicians to drive under them over and over and over again ).

Experts are ignored by the left, always, because they speak from facts and truth and that confuses the hell out of lefties ( aka NDP, Liberals and a tiny few conservatives ).

So I am on side with the scientists who are now stating forget Kyoto it is a waste and will have no significance on anything other than drain money down the dark hole.

[Guest eureka]

2% is correct to the nearest percentage - it is slightly higher. But of what significance is that? It is one of the the world's highest contributions to the problem proportionate to national size. Most countries of the world are far below 2% including bigger countries than Canada.

That 2% was critical to the implementation of Kyoto. It was almost the difference between international ratification or not in reaching the required 55% threshold. For information, you need only to search under Kyoto. Yhe agreements spell it out.

As for the rest of knowitall's ravings, I really cannot be bothered. The man (Iassume he is) is a complete fool.

There has just been an international conference of scientists in England that repeats the alarms and the urgency. It is also the one I mentioned where the scientists behaved like scientists and would not pin down the consequences neatly for the politicians to ponder. Rather, they gave possible times for possible events such as the death of the world's corals as I mentioned.

[B. Max]

But just because our they are doing a poor job of getting Kyoto off the ground, does not mean that they should give up. There is no doubt in my mind, and in the mind of most of the scientific community, that we are damaging our environment and that climate change is real.

The fact is most scientists don't agree with global warming or kyoto. Climate change is something else, and something that has been ongoing since the beginning and happens natural and can only be measured over thousands of years and not by faulty computer models or someone taking a look out their back door.

http://www.sepp.org/pressrel/petition.html

[Guest eureka]

The fact is that the "petition" is seven years old. Another fact is that there is not a scientist among the 17,000 Some doctors, vets and, more or less, anyone who might have taken a course or two at high school.

The petition was a phony and even its originators now hide in embarrassment.

Another fact is, as I said in an earlier post that SEPP itself is next thing to a criminal organization. It was funded, under Fred Singer, a scientist once, who seems to have developed a dementia, by the "Moonies."

SEPP also tried to pooh pooh acid rain, ozone depletion and a few other problems we are having.

I think that you if you continue to try to peddle this dangerous stuff, should be buried to the ankles in the Tar Sands - but upside down. That would leave your brain exposed to sunlight.

[B. Max]

The fact is that the "petition" is seven years old. Another fact is that there is not a scientist among the 17,000 Some doctors, vets and, more or less, anyone who might have taken a course or two at high school.

The petition was a phony and even its originators now hide in embarrassment.

Another fact is, as I said in an earlier post that SEPP itself is next thing to a criminal organization. It was funded, under Fred Singer, a scientist once, who seems to have developed a dementia, by the "Moonies."

SEPP also tried to pooh pooh acid rain, ozone depletion and a few other problems we are having.

I think that you if you continue to try to peddle this dangerous stuff, should be buried to the ankles in the Tar Sands - but upside down. That would leave your brain exposed to sunlight.

About the only thing correct is the age of the petition. Even back then they knew that global warming and kyoto were both a farce. With kyoto being nothing more than a scheme to transfer jobs and wealth to the despot run third world backwaters of communist failures. A scheme hatched at the cesspool of corruption known as the UN.

No one is hiding least of them the AAOSC who still claim global warming and kyoto are a farce. Only the government controlled leftwing wing media are hiding from those who know the truth., and only those with a sheep for a brain still bah at the leftwing pinko lies.

http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p628.htm

Of yes, the ozone hole was equally a hoax and a fraud. A hole as large as the hole between your years that accommodates the sheep.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1418/

[Guest eureka]

You are a complete ass.