Battle of the Bulge Anniversary

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

TFB, you should, perhaps, read the story of El Alamein. One of the decisive factors in that battle was the superior tanks of the Allies: Sherman tanks in that case.

I have read an awful lot about WWII, including El-Alamein. Yes, the Shermans and Lee-Grants were a factor, but not as much as Montgomery's brilliant leadership, air superiority, and several factors working against the Germans. These factors included Kesselring's failure to supply Rommel with petrol, (they only had enough after the 'First Battle of Alamein' to travel some 60 miles) and having Italian troops as allies.

The formidable New Zealanders, and Scottish Highlanders were every bit as critical as Sheman tanks.

In the 'second battle of Alamein', Rommel was sick with jaundice, and was replaced by Gen. Stumme, who died of a heart attack after his car was strafed by a low-flying Brit fighter (he fell out of the car, and the driver returned to base not realizing he lost the most important passenger on the continent! Stumme was found a few days later in the desert, dead of a heart attack).

The Germans could do nothing but retreat, even after the return of Rommel, faced with complete Allied air superiority. Their retreat took the Germans all the way back to Tunisia, and after 'fighting to the last round' (as ordered), the remants of the Afrika Korps, then led by Maj Gen Graf Von Sponek(commanding the formidable 90th light division) asked to surrender to their (equally formidable)old foes, the New Zealanders.

The "Uprising" of 1943. Churchill promised the Poles that there would be military support and Stalin expected it

I have never heard of such a thing. The 'Warsaw Uprising' was in 1944, with the Russians only 13km from the city. Maj Gen Bor-Komorowski, had approval from the Polish Gov't-in-exile in London to lead the uprising. Instead of helping liberate Warsaw, the Russians held back, and many thousands of Jews were slaughtered.

The question was, did Stalin deliberately hold back to see the uprising crushed? After all, he called the AK(Armija Krajowa) 'power-seeking criminals' (as they were loyal to the gov't-in-exile), and even refused British planes to re-fuel in Russia after they had dropped supplies off to the AK.

Or perhaps you refer to the incident in 1943 when several mass graves were found in the Katyn Forest, near Smolensk, containing bound and executed Polish officers. The dead Polish officers, it was found, were from 1940, when the Russians controlled the area. It was assumed that these officers had 'refused communist indoctrination'.

The Soviet Union denied any part in the massacre, but General Sikorski's gov't-in-exile in London asked the Red Cross to set up another inquiry. Apparently outraged, Stalin broke with Sikorski, and set up his own Polish puppet gov't.

Source of most of this info:"The World At Arms" Reader's Digest Illustrated History of WWII

[Guest eureka]

Well, you heard it here first, then. The uprising of '43. Churchill wanted to go in and open it for Russian action. Stalin wanted Allied support. Roosevelt would not listen to his more experienced allies.

The Polish underground was ready and willing but they were hung out to dry - or bleed.

[Guest eureka]

Actually, there were the two and they are often confused. The Waesaw Ghetto in 1943 where the Jews rose but, and it seems to be not well known, they were not alone as elements of the Polish resistance fought with them and there were preparations for a wider uprising that failed from the lack of support.

Then there was the Warsaw uprising of 1944 that did spread to other cities but not successfully.

BTW, I am not all that well, read about El Alamein. One of my brothers was a tank commander in that action and I have heard him comment on the superiority of the Allies in that aspect of the campaign - not just at Alamein. There was something of a see-saw over tank superiority with the Allies trumping every German advance in tank design.

Also, wrt to the idea that the invasion of Europe occurred in Normandy in 1944, my two brothers were with the forces that were half way up Italy by that time. They they enjoyed the long vacation at Monte Cassino and some other charming Italian resorts until Operation Overlord upset their idyll and they had to continue on into Central Europe.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

my two brothers were with the forces that were half way up Italy by that time.

I had two uncles serve in Italy also. As bizarre coincidence would have it, I recently met someone who served with them. My dad served in the Canadian navy, and lost an arm in battle in 1944. He is still alive and kicking, just not as strongly as before.

[greyhound]

Instead of helping liberate Warsaw, the Russians held back, and many thousands of Jews were slaughtered.

Instead of helping liberate Prague, the Americans stopped in Pilzen, and many Czechs were unnecessarily slaughtered till the Russians came.

I believe that the Americans stopped because they got seduced by the strong hops flavor of pilsner lager beer that originated and is made in Pilzen. Can't say I blame them.

I hear that Poles are renowned for their vodka. Did the Russians stop where the best Polish vodka is made? That would explain it.

[ceemes]

Actually, at El Alamein, there were only 300 Shermans out of a total of 1000 allied tanks. Also, the Shermans were known as Ronsons, or Zippo's, because they burned readily when hit.

The American Shermans were more often then not outgunned by their German opposits, in fact both the British and Canadian tanks corps retro fitted heavier guns onto their Shermans inorder to met the German superiority in guns. The US in typical Anglophobic style refuse to accept the better British guns for their undergunned Shermans when offered.

If you read the Battle El El Alamein, you will see that it was mainly a defensive battle on the part of Commonwealth forces who were dug in behind massive minefields and supporting anti tank guns with interlocking fields of fire.

Where Monty got it right was refusing to get caught in an after action chase of Rommels forces after they were beaten by the UK defences. Later, as the Germans regrouped, RAF air power came into play and destroyed much of Rommels remaining armour and transport.

I had an uncle there as well serving with the RAF.

[Guest eureka]

This an excerpt from one account.

On 30th August, 1942, Erwin Rommel attacked at Alam el Halfa but was repulsed by the Eighth Army. Montgomery responded to this attack by ordering his troops to reinforce the defensive line from the coast to the impassable Qattara Depression. Montgomery was now able to make sure that Rommel and the German Army was unable to make any further advances into Egypt.

Over the next six weeks Montgomery began to stockpile vast quantities of weapons and ammunition to make sure that by the time he attacked he possessed overwhelming firepower. By the middle of October the Eighth Army totalled 195,000 men, 1,351 tanks and 1,900 pieces of artillery. This included large numbers of recently delivered Sherman M4 and Grant M3 tanks.

On 23rd October Montgomery launched Operation Lightfoot with the largest artillery bombardment since the First World War. The attack came at the worst time for the Deutsches Afrika Korps as Erwin Rommel was on sick leave in Austria. His replacement, General George Stumme, died of a heart-attack the day after the 900 gun bombardment of the German lines. Stume was replaced by General Ritter von Thoma and Adolf Hitler phoned Rommel to order him to return to Egypt immediately.

The Germans defended their positions well and after two days the Eighth Army had made little progress and Bernard Montgomery ordered an end to the attack. When Erwin Rommel returned he launched a counterattack at Kidney Depression (27th October). Montgomery now returned to the offensive and the 9th Australian Division created a salient in the enemy positions.

Winston Churchill was disappointed by the Eighth Army's lack of success and accused Montgomery of fighting a "half-hearted" battle. Montgomery ignored these criticisms and instead made plans for a new offensive, Operation Supercharge.

On 1st November 1942, Montgomery launched an attack on the Deutsches Afrika Korps at Kidney Ridge. After initially resisting the attack, Rommel decided he no longer had the resources to hold his line and on the 3rd November he ordered his troops to withdraw. However, Adolf Hitler overruled his commander and the Germans were forced to stand and fight.

The next day Montgomery ordered his men forward. The Eighth Army broke through the German lines and Erwin Rommel, in danger of being surrounded, was forced to retreat. Those soldiers on foot, including large numbers of Italian soldiers, were unable to move fast enough and were taken prisoner.

For a while it looked like the the British would cut off Rommel's army but a sudden rain storm on 6th November turned the desert into a quagmire and the chasing army was slowed down. Rommel, now with only twenty tanks left, managed to get to Sollum on the Egypt-Libya border.

On 8th November Erwin Rommel learned of the Allied invasion of Morocco and Algeria that was under the command of General Dwight D. Eisenhower. His depleted army now faced a war on two front.

The British Army recaptured Tobruk on 12th November, 1942. During the El Alamein campaign half of Rommel's 100,000 man army was killed, wounded or taken prisoner. He also lost over 450 tanks and 1,000 guns. The British and Commonwealth forces suffered 13,500 casualties and 500 of their tanks were damaged. However, of these, 350 were repaired and were able to take part in future battles.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

Sounds like a reasonable account. The info I have about

large numbers of recently delivered Sherman M4 and Grant M3 tanks.

was 422, combined.

By the middle of October the Eighth Army totalled 195,000 men, 1,351 tanks and 1,900 pieces of artillery.

Rommel had 50,000 men, 54,000 crappy Italian troops, 500 tanks, and 1300 guns (but only 86 of the deadly .88). The Germans were completely outnumbered, especially in aircraft, and every 3 out of 4 ships bringing supplies accross the Med were sunk.

A decisive victory for Montgomery and the Brits, to be sure, but hardly attributable to American-made tanks.

[Guest eureka]

There was another site I looked at that did talk of the role of the RAF. Interesting the different perspectives.

Yet another about Sherman tanks explains the superiority of the new Shermans at that time. The Germas later regained technological superiority but lost it still later in the war with a newer version of the Shermans - the Firefly, I think it was called.

[ceemes]

There was another site I looked at that did talk of the role of the RAF. Interesting the different perspectives.

Yet another about Sherman tanks explains the superiority of the new Shermans at that time. The Germas later regained technological superiority but lost it still later in the war with a newer version of the Shermans - the Firefly, I think it was called.

The Sherman was far from the best tank of WWII, both the Germans and the Soviets producted better tanks in the terms of crew protection and firepower.

The American version of the Sherman was vastly undergunned compared to later German designs. The only two things that the American versions had going for it was speed and numbers. Still, it a gun fight between five Shermans and one Tiger, you could count on four of the Shermans being wiped before the fifth could get behind the Tiger and put a shell into engine.

A few British and Canadian Regiments were lucky enough to be equipped with the Firefly varient that mounted the British 17 pounder gun, a gun that had the range and ability to punch through the best German amour of the day. Sadly for American crews, the US Army refused to adopted a "British" gun and stayed with the 75MM peashooter.

The Shermans were known as either ZIppo's or Ronson lighters by Allied crews because of their habit of readily burning when hit. To the Germans they were called Tommycookers.

The Sherman was the classic American tank of WW2 used by all Allied nations under the lend-lease scheme. The prototype model was first built in Feb 1941, by the autumn of 1942 the tank was in full production and the shermans saw action in Oct 1942 at the battle of Alamein with British forces. The Sherman became the most widely produced Allied tank of the Second World War with total production running to 48,071. It was not one of the best tanks of the war being inferior to the best of the Soviet and German tanks in armour and firepower at times gaining it the nickname the 'Tommycooker'. Despite this it was simple, rugged, easy to fix and quite fast for its time with a top speed of 24mph (38km/h). The early versions had a 75mm gun but later (1944) British versions called the Firefly mounted a powerful 17pdr gun.

[greyhound]

Instead of helping liberate Warsaw, the Russians held back, and many thousands of Jews were slaughtered.

Instead of helping liberate Prague, the Americans stopped in Pilzen, and many Czechs were unnecessarily slaughtered till the Russians came.

I believe that the Americans stopped because they got seduced by the strong hops flavor of pilsner lager beer that originated and is made in Pilzen. Can't say I blame them.

I hear that Poles are renowned for their vodka. Did the Russians stop where the best Polish vodka is made? That would explain it.

HEY, FLEABAG!

THIS WAS A SERIOUS QUESTION AND I DEMAND AN ANSWER!!!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

There was another site I looked at that did talk of the role of the RAF. Interesting the different perspectives.

Different perspectives is what history is all about. Usually the history books are written by the winner. Say, didn't you say that your two (or is it 3) brothers served in WWII? That should put you around 70-80 yrs old. Odd that you are only discovering different perspectives from websites just now.

[Guest eureka]

You are somewhat correct about tanks but not entirely. If you read the comparisons of the time of the battle, you will find that the Shermans (the M4s) had a gretare range in their guns than the German tanks at El Alamein.

There was a seesaw of capabilities.

[Guest eureka]

Tfb:

I am not just discovering different perspectives. I am merely pointing them out for the benefit of you youngsters. I have read them all including the revisionists. The Websites I looked up to satisfy the apparent belief today that only there does knowledge exist.

You will find a different take on any individual battle depending on which arm, or side, of the forces the teller belonged to. Put them together to find an approximation of truth.