Some are more equal than others

[Rick]

"In fact they are as outraged as me at this clown's behavior and find it insulting that his race is used as mitigating factor." I've encountered the same position. Seems that responsibility is out the window all too often today.

Indeed.

Just take this case for example....

[Scotty]

The family isn't going to like what they get if there is an inquiry launched. Studies have already been done and Natives get harsher sentences for the same crimes as non-Aboriginal Canadians.

Cite?

[Guest Manny]

I'm 'addicted' ...I'm hurtin'...hurtin' bad.

We know. It became clear to us all in another thread, Speedball.

[Wild Bill]

Indeed.

Just take this case for example....

Gee Rick, you're quite right! That's outrageous that the black gentleman gets such a sentence compared to that "white bread" business executive!

Certainly, that black man now has every right to take his 3 year old daughter outside into the cold and abandon her to freeze to death!

Thank you for pointing this out! I never would have come up with such reasoning on my own!

You can be a cold and righteous fellow sometimes, Rick. Doesn't that little girl's life mean anything to you or is she just a convenient opportunity for you to make some politically correct point?

Edited December 31, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Guest Peeves]

Indeed.

Just take this case for example....

It's true that there are disparities in sentencing between Blacks and Whites, especially in drug cases. (US)

It's true that there are a disproportionate number of natives in jail in Canada. (! even when given more latitude and review by law by their judges.)

That also needs to be put under a light, but it does not address what I consider to be an injustice in sentencing for a brutal near murder nor for the death of children.

From what I'm reading, the later case, the father nor the tribal council accepts true responsibility or guilt, or the sentence light as it was.

[NWRS]

Yes, because "our laws", in attempting to destroy their claims to the land, devastated their cultures, communities, leadership, families and in particular several generations of children. This is very recent history so the effects are still very apparent in the children and grandchildren of residential school victims.

Judicial application of the law strives for justice - ie fairness and consistency.

That is little comfort for the victim im sure. If a non native come from a rough home and makes the same mistake is he given the same consideration? I have little doubt that a non native growing up abused or what not doesn't see himself as privileged and isn't able to decide not to be violent simply because his 'ancestors' weren't treated poorly.

Personally i don't think either case warrants a light sentence but you can't simply look at natives and say, poor boy, when other people live in similar situations for other reasons.

Also, you can say what you like about how they were treated, or how long ago it was, the fact remains that most of us have had ancestors who were at some point very badly treated, and most of their grand children wouldn't expect special treatment as a result.

[cybercoma]

This is hardly something new.

Here's an article from '99 that talks about s. 718.2(e)

Editorial-writers, columnists and callers to talk shows have been quick to condemn the section, which they say marks a disturbing trend toward race-based justice and can be seen as a "get out of jail free" card for Aboriginal people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

continued: http://www.fact.on.ca/newpaper/gm99020a.htm

[cybercoma]

Cite?

I should point out that the article in my last post also mentions that many inquiries have been conducted and found "that the overrepresentation of Aboriginal people in prison is caused in part by systemic discrimination against them in the criminal justice system. Aboriginal accused are denied bail more often, face more charges and spend less time with their defence lawyers. These factors make them as a group particularly vulnerable to unnecessary imprisonment.

If you want the actual research papers, I could hunt them down and provide you with links, but you'll have to buy the studies and I doubt you'll want to do that.

[charter.rights]

It's true that there are disparities in sentencing between Blacks and Whites, especially in drug cases. (US)

It's true that there are a disproportionate number of natives in jail in Canada. (! even when given more latitude and review by law by their judges.)

That also needs to be put under a light, but it does not address what I consider to be an injustice in sentencing for a brutal near murder nor for the death of children.

From what I'm reading, the later case, the father nor the tribal council accepts true responsibility or guilt, or the sentence light as it was.

That's YOUR problem.

You aren't at the trial, nor are you aware of all the facts. That's why we don't try cases in the media. You focused on the sensational and ignored the boring facts and evidence.

[prairiechickin]

I should point out that the article in my last post also mentions that many inquiries have been conducted and found "that the overrepresentation of Aboriginal people in prison is caused in part by systemic discrimination against them in the criminal justice system. Aboriginal accused are denied bail more often, face more charges and spend less time with their defence lawyers. These factors make them as a group particularly vulnerable to unnecessary imprisonment.

If you want the actual research papers, I could hunt them down and provide you with links, but you'll have to buy the studies and I doubt you'll want to do that.

I've written more real history that you ever will, and I've never paid a nickle to cite authentic sources. I've paid for photocoying at the archives, but that's about it. You are a great big bag of wind.

[Guest Peeves]

That's YOUR problem.

You aren't at the trial, nor are you aware of all the facts. That's why we don't try cases in the media. You focused on the sensational and ignored the boring facts and evidence.

No, that's your problem. I followed both trials in detail and the write ups, on line discussions and talk shows. Dispute my facts or add comments, but do not make this personal as you seem want to do.

[cybercoma]

I've written more real history that you ever will, and I've never paid a nickle to cite authentic sources. I've paid for photocoying at the archives, but that's about it. You are a great big bag of wind.

Documents in historical archives and court proceedings are free. Scholarly research articles, on the other hand, are not. Your institution pays your fees for the articles you dig up. The journals don't give out copies of their publications for free.

I also find it funny that you presume to know what I've published, researched, and written. I didn't realize this was a competition.

Edited January 1, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest Peeves]

This is hardly something new.

Here's an article from '99 that talks about s. 718.2(e)

Excerpt from your link.

Section 718.2(e) is not about excusing the criminal acts of Aboriginal people because they are Aboriginal. It is not about not jailing them simply because they are Aboriginal. Rather, it suggests that sentences other than imprisonment might meet the needs of the community and the offender better than incarceration.

A conviction for a criminal act should result in an reasonable sentence regardless the citizen's ethnicity.

Equality under the law, not special treatment. That's all I expect.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Manny]

If you want the actual research papers, I could hunt them down and provide you with links, but you'll have to buy the studies and I doubt you'll want to do that.

Even that may not convince some around here who refuse to believe validated, authentic research, preferring to go with their own opinions.

[Guest Manny]

I've written more real history that you ever will, and I've never paid a nickle to cite authentic sources. I've paid for photocoying at the archives, but that's about it. You are a great big bag of wind.

Hopefully you did a better job writing "real history" than what you write around here.

[charter.rights]

No, that's your problem. I followed both trials in detail and the write ups, on line discussions and talk shows. Dispute my facts or add comments, but do not make this personal as you seem want to do.

Bull. You were NOT at the trial nor privy to disclosure. You best i listening to biased media looking for sound bytes.

[prairiechickin]

Documents in historical archives and court proceedings are free. Scholarly research articles, on the other hand, are not. Your institution pays your fees for the articles you dig up. The journals don't give out copies of their publications for free.

I also find it funny that you presume to know what I've published, researched, and written. I didn't realize this was a competition.

You're right, scholarly journals are not free and I subscribe to a handful that are relevent in my field. Any others can be located in any university library. No I don't know what you've published, but if you've gone that far I assume you're familiar with the rules of evidence for peer revieved books and articles. I don't care what you've written, but I do care when people make outrageous claims then persistently refuse to cite any evidence. Every time you are challenged the evidence is secret, or too expensive, or you toss us a list of 500 Supreme Court rulings and expect us to sort it out.

[prairiechickin]

Hopefully you did a better job writing "real history" than what you write around here.

You found a couple of spelling mistakes, aren't you a clever little monkey?

[cybercoma]

Every time you are challenged the evidence is secret, or too expensive, or you toss us a list of 500 Supreme Court rulings and expect us to sort it out.

Every time? Really?

I think this is probably the first time that I've done it because I have a number of studies on my hard-drive and the forum rules prohibit me from posting copyright material illegally. I'm also not going to hunt down links to the articles on the journals because, frankly people don't read them on here and those that do just ignore the findings anyway. Regardless, this is the only time I can think of that I have done this, so I don't know where you get "every time." You might be thinking of someone else like Smallc who has secret knowledge of reserve financing or charter.rights who has posted SCC ruling after SCC ruling to prove his points. If you're so interested in the findings and you have access to the journals through your institution like you claim, then go punch "aboriginal" and "incarceration" into the databases. There certainly isn't a lack of studies.

Edited January 2, 2012 by cybercoma

[prairiechickin]

Every time? Really?

I think this is probably the first time that I've done it because I have a number of studies on my hard-drive and the forum rules prohibit me from posting copyright material illegally. I'm also not going to hunt down links to the articles on the journals because, frankly people don't read them on here and those that do just ignore the findings anyway. Regardless, this is the only time I can think of that I have done this, so I don't know where you get "every time." You might be thinking of someone else like Smallc who has secret knowledge of reserve financing or charter.rights who has posted SCC ruling after SCC ruling to prove his points. If you're so interested in the findings and you have access to the journals through your institution like you claim, then go punch "aboriginal" and "incarceration" into the databases. There certainly isn't a lack of studies.

My apologies, I think I did mix you up with someone else. As for the journal articles, I'd be happy with a simple citation since the links can be tricky, especially on newer articles.

[Guest Manny]

You found a couple of spelling mistakes, aren't you a clever little monkey?

And a run-on sentence.

[prairiechickin]

And a run-on sentence.

Do you have anything intelligent to add to this thread, or are you just here to proofread my posts?

[Guest Manny]

Do you have anything intelligent to add to this thread, or are you just here to proofread my posts?

Cybercoma was trying to make some intelligent points. You attacked people, calling them "great bags of wind" while boasting that you are a writer of history.

Not a very good one, I'd guess...

[cybercoma]

My apologies, I think I did mix you up with someone else. As for the journal articles, I'd be happy with a simple citation since the links can be tricky, especially on newer articles.

I'm not going to give you a bibliography, but this article is probably one of the most pertinent ones, as it relates specifically to section 718.2(e):

Welsh, A., & Ogloff, J. P. (2008). Progressive Reforms or Maintaining the Status Quo? An Empirical Evaluation of the Judicial Consideration of Aboriginal Status in Sentencing Decisions. Canadian Journal Of Criminology & Criminal Justice, 50(4), 491-517.

Also, this article shows that aboriginal youth are more likely to receive longer sentences than non-aboriginal youth:

Latimer, J., & Foss, L. (2005). The Sentencing of Aboriginal and Non-Aboriginal Youth under the Young Offenders Act: A Multivariate Analysis. Canadian Journal Of Criminology & Criminal Justice, 47(3), 481-500.

This article notes that the changes to the law to recognize the "special circumstances" of aboriginal peoples has been useless in addressing their over-representation:

Roberts, J. V., & Melchers, R. (2003). The Incarceration of Aboriginal Offenders: Trends from 1978 to 2001. Canadian Journal Of Criminology & Criminal Justice, 45(2), 211-242.

And this article discusses how and why aboriginal youth are disproportionately entering the CJS (which is why the sentencing legislation was passed in the first place), as well as how they're more likely to receive longer sentences, echoing Latimer & Foss (2005) above.

Shantz, J. (2010). 'The foundation of our community': cultural restoration, reclaiming children and youth in an indigenous community. Journal Of Social Welfare & Family Law, 32(3), 229-236.

Edited January 2, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Most of those articles refer to the fact that aboriginal offenders receive longer sentences than non-aboriginal offenders, which is why I made the claim earlier that they receive "harsher" sentences.