Strippers, escorts should be added to job bank: Ottawa

[Bonam]

Prostitution is obviously far from an optimal career for anyone, woman or man. That doesn't mean it needs to be illegal. There are many non-optimal careers.

By the way, for people opposing prostitution, what of the porn industry? A porn actor is basically a prostitute, except that the paid for sexual interaction is also recorded on camera. And yet, pornography is a huge, legal, growing, and widely accepted industry, while prostitution is frowned upon and criminalized. Why is that? How does pointing a camera at a person having sex for money make the situation less morally offensive? If I go to a prostitute and film the intercourse on my camera and then post it online for people to download, does the whole thing then become legal since it's not prostitution but pornography?

Personally, I see no reason whatsoever to keep prostitution criminalized, and I don't see how people can fail to realize the double standard that is being applied.

[CANADIEN]

I have problems with it,as well.One one hand I can see the the issue of safety for the sex worker being a valid one.On the otherhand,and perhaps I'm also a bit of a moralist,I don't see how this furthers society's advancement.I realize that sex is natural for everyone,but I can't help but thinking that's still someones daughter or son out there doing those things to themselves.I can't imagine anyone wanting to rent out certain bodily orifices for the pleasure of others being a chosen career decision...

You lefty

Seriously, same here.

[CANADIEN]

Prostitution is obviously far from an optimal career for anyone, woman or man. That doesn't mean it needs to be illegal. There are many non-optimal careers.

By the way, for people opposing prostitution, what of the porn industry? A porn actor is basically a prostitute, except that the paid for sexual interaction is also recorded on camera. And yet, pornography is a huge, legal, growing, and widely accepted industry, while prostitution is frowned upon and criminalized. Why is that? How does pointing a camera at a person having sex for money make the situation less morally offensive? If I go to a prostitute and film the intercourse on my camera and then post it online for people to download, does the whole thing then become legal since it's not prostitution but pornography?

Personally, I see no reason whatsoever to keep prostitution criminalized, and I don't see how people can fail to realize the double standard that is being applied.

I am not a big fan of the porn industry either, but you got a point there. It is not logical to be against decriminalization of prostitution and not view the porn industry as a form of prostitution itself.

Edited October 15, 2010 by CANADIEN

[grainfedprairieboy]

Bonam:

Aside from the obvious fact that you are essentially right. It must still be somewhat more demeaning to have sex with 30-50 partners who are not being paid to do so to equal the same revenues?

I feel there is likely a stronger stigma attached to street prostitution then porn star as odd as that may sound.

Edited October 15, 2010 by grainfedprairieboy

[Bonam]

Bonam:

Aside from the obvious fact that you are essentially right. It must still be somewhat more demeaning to have sex with 30-50 partners who are not being paid to do so to equal the same revenues?

So the extent to which a woman (or man) is demeaned by the act of prostitution is a direct function of the price they charged for it? So if street prostitutes just charge 30-50x more it'd be just as ok as porn?

Also, why should it matter whether the other member of the interaction is also being paid or not? Do all male porn actors always get paid? I'm sure if one did some research one could find examples of porn scenes where some of the actors were not being paid for that particular scene.

I feel there is likely a stronger stigma attached to street prostitution then porn star as odd as that may sound.

Of course, there is a much stronger stigma attached. Most people disdain and feel disgust or pity for street prostitutes, while they salivate over or envy porn stars. The question is why, and whether such a difference in perception has any reasonable moral basis.

My position would be that it does not.

Hotter, better performing prostitutes get to charge more, and the best get to have a camera pointed at them and have it called porn. Less attractive ones get to be called "two dollar whores". It seems like our moral judgment of these people stems primarily from their level of attractiveness, if they are super hot, not only do they get paid 100x more, they also are socially admired and accepted. And if they are aren't attractive enough to get a camera pointed at them, they get paid 100x less and get stigmatized and made into criminals. Obviously there are some exceptions, I'm just being extra blunt here to make my point.

Isn't getting paid less for the use of your bodily orifices enough of a punishment for not being as attractive?

All of these activities should have the same level of legality, whether a camera is involved or not, whether the person getting paid is attractive or not, whether their partner is also getting paid or not, whether a big corporate studio puts their logo on it or not.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Bonam

[grainfedprairieboy]

It's in the references at the bottom of the article:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100595.htm

How long do you want to keep this farce up?

On page 35 of a 42 page document it says this:

Prostitution is illegal, but "sigheh," or temporary marriage, is legal. Accurate information regarding the extent of prostitution was not widely available. (Unconfirmed) Press reports described prostitution as a widespread problem, with a media estimate of 300,000 women working as prostitutes. The problem appeared aggravated by difficult economic conditions and rising numbers of drug users and runaway children.

Then at the bottom of the document there is a proviso advising to the legitimacy claiming:

The United States does not have an embassy in Iran. This report draws heavily on non-U.S. Government sources.

But this is what swayed your opinion and I promised not to refute it and I am a man of my word.

[grainfedprairieboy]

So the extent to which a woman (or man) is demeaned by the act of prostitution is a direct function of the price they charged for it? So if street prostitutes just charge 30-50x more it'd be just as ok as porn?

Also, why should it matter whether the other member of the interaction is also being paid or not? Do all male porn actors always get paid? I'm sure if one did some research one could find examples of porn scenes where some of the actors were not being paid for that particular scene.

Of course, there is a much stronger stigma attached. Most people disdain and feel disgust or pity for street prostitutes, while they salivate over or envy porn stars. The question is why, and whether such a difference in perception has any reasonable moral basis.

My position would be that it does not.

Hotter, better performing prostitutes get to charge more, and the best get to have a camera pointed at them and have it called porn. Less attractive ones get to be called "two dollar whores". It seems like our moral judgment of these people stems primarily from their level of attractiveness, if they are super hot, not only do they get paid 100x more, they also are socially admired and accepted. And if they are aren't attractive enough to get a camera pointed at them, they get paid 100x less and get stigmatized and made into criminals. Obviously there are some exceptions, I'm just being extra blunt here to make my point.

Isn't getting paid less for the use of your bodily orifices enough of a punishment for not being as attractive?

All of these activities should have the same level of legality, whether a camera is involved or not, whether the person getting paid is attractive or not, whether their partner is also getting paid or not, whether a big corporate studio puts their logo on it or not.

I agree with almost everything you have written. When it comes to pornography and prostitution I approve neither in principle, actively campaign against prostitution and am a major consumer of pornography. This clearly makes me a hypocrite of which I am well aware and freely admit.

But to be fair, pornography is a distant problem shot in Toronto, LA, or eastern Europe and many of the actresses have deliberately moved there to seek an opportunity in the industry whereas prostitution occurs in our communities and the recruiting of our local girls who are most troubled is the principal target by agencies and pimps.

[Bonam]

I agree with almost everything you have written. When it comes to pornography and prostitution I approve neither in principle, actively campaign against prostitution and am a major consumer of pornography. This clearly makes me a hypocrite of which I am well aware and freely admit.

But to be fair, pornography is a distant problem shot in Toronto, LA, or eastern Europe and many of the actresses have deliberately moved there to seek an opportunity in the industry whereas prostitution occurs in our communities and the recruiting of our local girls who are most troubled is the principal target by agencies and pimps.

Toronto may be distant for you and me, but it is not distant for many others on this board, nor about 5+ million other people. If sex for money is a problem, why is it ok in Toronto and LA? There are plenty of local girls there too, local to Toronto, or local to LA, or local to eastern Europe.

And I agree, vulnerable individuals being targeted by pimps is definitely a problem. If prostitution was a legal industry akin to pornography, legal safeguards to prevent exploitation and abuse of the most vulnerable could be implemented.

If your daughter, despite your best efforts, DID turn out to be a prostitute, wouldn't you at least rather she worked in a city-certified facility, with security guards, cleanliness standards, good lighting, freedom of quitting employment, etc, rather than being kept in some basement by some pimp, in a constant stupor of forcefully administered drugs and alcohol, beaten bloody at the whim of the pimp or his clients?

Edited October 15, 2010 by Bonam

[grainfedprairieboy]

Toronto may be distant for you and me, but it is not distant for many others on this board, nor about 5+ other million people. If sex for money is a problem, why is it ok in Toronto and LA? There are plenty of local girls there too, local to Toronto, or local to LA, or local to eastern Europe.

I can't really debate this sentence. Your point is far more superior to anything I can raise to counter it with so I won' try.

And I agree, vulnerable individuals being targeted by pimps is definitely a problem. If prostitution was a legal industry akin to pornography, legal safeguards to prevent exploitation and abuse of the most vulnerable could be implemented.

Here I am not as confident as you. I am highly suspicious of any regulatory body and given the government commissions which oversee alcohol, tobacco and gambling; it is hard to dispute that a significant effort has gone into growing those market segments for the benefit of the tax revenue and I doubt this would be much different with prostitution, particularly if it became mainstream and acceptable.

If your daughter, despite your best efforts, DID turn out to be a prostitute, wouldn't you at least rather she worked in a city-certified facility, with security guards, cleanliness standards, good lighting, freedom of quitting employment, etc, rather than be kept in some basement by some pimp, in a constant stupor of forcefully administered drugs and alcohol, beaten bloody at the whim of the pimp or his clients?

I'm one of the last of the good ole boys. Without bravado if this happened to one of my daughters she would be forcibly extracted and the perpetrators would be dead. Not a boast, simply a clear fact. I have little respect for what passes for fatherhood in this country today in that many would do anything less.

Having said that, as another poster raised, the experience in Amsterdam actually increased organised crime and girls involved in the industry against their will so I am still not convinced overall that legalisation is a magic cure.

[Bonam]

I'm one of the last of the good ole boys. Without bravado if this happened to one of my daughters she would be forcibly extracted and the perpetrators would be dead. Not a boast, simply a clear fact. I have little respect for what passes for fatherhood in this country today in that many would do anything less.

Yeah and what if they happened to have more guns than you? You'd be dead on the floor and your daughter would still be their property. Or you might succeed and be thrown in jail, and your daughter might just become the victim of the next pimp, who you won't get to from behind bars.

I am highly suspicious of any regulatory body and given the government commissions which oversee alcohol, tobacco and gambling; it is hard to dispute that a significant effort has gone into growing those market segments for the benefit of the tax revenue and I doubt this would be much different with prostitution, particularly if it became mainstream and acceptable.

What evidence do you see that an effort has been put into GROWING these market segments, tobacco for example? For one, we have higher taxes on these products, which discourage consumption. Secondly, have you looked at a pack of cigarettes recently? Do you see the kind of disgusting health warnings on them? If those kinds of images don't make people think twice about smoking nothing will. And lastly, we have the objective evidence of statistics which shows that smoking has been on the decrease in Canada for quite some time.

I can't really debate this sentence. Your point is far more superior to anything I can raise to counter it with so I won' try.

Thanks Happens to the best of us...

[grainfedprairieboy]

Yeah and what if they happened to have more guns than you? You'd be dead on the floor and your daughter would still be their property. Or you might succeed and be thrown in jail, and your daughter might just become the victim of the next pimp, who you won't get to from behind bars.

I'm not going to sit here and try and convince you of a hypothetical tactical extraction and revenge operation because it makes me look like a bigger dick then I am (someone insert witty quip here). However, I'd rather be dead then allow my daughter to be under the circumstances you described and as a well insured atheist I'm not overly concerned with death when weighed against living under that sort of nightmare and I am equally unimpressed that most so called parents would be more concerned about their own hides then their daughters.

On a side note, I remember my grandpa telling me that the two largest problems with modern life was the pace was too fast to enjoy it and domestic abuse was almost unheard of when your pa and six brothers went to discuss your bruise with your husband.

What evidence do you see that an effort has been put into GROWING these market segments, tobacco for example? For one, we have higher taxes on these products, which discourage consumption. Secondly, have you looked at a pack of cigarettes recently? Do you see the kind of disgusting health warnings on them? If those kinds of images don't make people think twice about smoking nothing will. And lastly, we have the objective evidence of statistics which shows that smoking has been on the decrease in Canada for quite some time.

I can buy tobacco anywhere. Convenience stores, drug stores, grocery stores, reservations, truck stops, gut wagons, even gas stations that sell only tobacco and gas, not even any oil. In fact, I can't be in any built up area where I can't throw a rock and within it's circumference can't find someone to buy them from.

I'm supposed to believe the government has cracked down because there are less vending machines and in the city they want you to smoke outside or put blankets over the displays? Hell, I can still smoke in the UFA I shop at.

[bloodyminded]

Let's face it. Since my arrival I have been polite to everyone until such time as they throw down first. When they do there is predictable gaggle of lefty cohorts who rush to join their defence.

I've been here all of 50 odds posts and the Liberals (clear site majority) are already circling the wagons and digging in.

Just like in real life. That's why thousands of your type try to shut down Israeli or Conservative speakers on campuses by rioting and carrying on but there is hardly a boo when the tables are turned.

Ahh....do you mean the way you're just now pretending that leftists and pro-Palestinian speakers aren't shut down on campuses....you know, the point you conceded earlier?

[bloodyminded]

You really take this Chosen One thing seriously don't you?

And as much as I appreciate you taking the time to offer your observations between sips cappuccino and breaks in the days gay pride parade you're going to have to do much more then play the part of some revived Trudeau.

I do appreciate the effort though.

Those who use gay as an insult expose themselves.

[bloodyminded]

He [Mr. Canada] sounds like a pretty bright guy.

Ha!

Just wait.

Edited October 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Why I do appreciate your candor. Of course I come from an environment where the two single strongest pejoratives are Liberal and gay so they do work their way into the conversation from time to time when I look to insult. of course, feel free to presume I am both as I am happy to be regarded by all as some left wing homosexual or even one wrestling with that sort of an inner demon.

I wouldn't think anything of the sort. My thinking is more along the lines of reactionary homophobe.

Also, puzzlingly, a social conservative who claims he's not a conservative. (That's a novel one, I admit.)

[bloodyminded]

ADD is considered to in part be responsible for the disturbing lack of sexual desire in Canadian men aged 18-36. Internet porn is also considered to be a factor in lowering the overall libido.

As you well know, porn is a thoroughly multi-partisan phenomenon.

Queer-hatin'...not so much.

[bloodyminded]

On a side note, I remember my grandpa telling me that the two largest problems with modern life was the pace was too fast to enjoy it and domestic abuse was almost unheard of when your pa and six brothers went to discuss your bruise with your husband.

Your grandpa, bless his heart (really) was mistaken. Without a doubt such incidents of justice occurred--still do.

But in the overwhelming, vastly overwhelming majority of cases, nothing was done. It was more acceptable. Beating a wife was often sort of "frowned upon," but thaty's about as far as it went.

(However, to be fair, I would certainly lay a beating into anyone who acted that way upon my own daughters; I don't why you think you're so righteously unique.)

Edited October 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Six replies in a row to a single poster? That's a first for me. But I forgive myself.

[Wild Bill]

What evidence do you see that an effort has been put into GROWING these market segments, tobacco for example? For one, we have higher taxes on these products, which discourage consumption. Secondly, have you looked at a pack of cigarettes recently? Do you see the kind of disgusting health warnings on them? If those kinds of images don't make people think twice about smoking nothing will. And lastly, we have the objective evidence of statistics which shows that smoking has been on the decrease in Canada for quite some time.

Tobacco might not be the best example, Bonam. The official word here in Ontario is that at least half of all cigarettes consumed are contraband. Smoking rates have hit a plateau for some years and among teens the habit has actually grown somewhat, due to the cheap and easy availability of native smokes.

The high price of legal smokes is almost entirely due to taxes.

Forgive me for picking apart your model and not your point but I just thought it should be pointed out.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Shwa]

So is this the guy who is your liberal king on the site? Is this why you eagerly anticipate his retorts or look for his cue to make sure you are on the right track?

He doesn't seem like much. Not to mock what is of value to you of course. I am actually quite sensitive to your feelings.

If he is not your chosen one perhaps you or anyone else can tell me who the top five most extreme and unreasonable Liberal members of MLW are?

Actually you will find all sorts of views from across the political spectrum here, but mostly centrists, liberals by definition, even Shady. There are those that can argue the merits of what some might consider a radical view, but in the end, mostly everyone appears to care for their neighbour's well being as well as their own.

A couple of nutters too, but they keep things fun on the slow days. Wait until you meet Mr. 'Sticky Shoes' Canada, hours of entertainment; he even created a special thread for people to feel free to hurl their insults toward him. A very kind and thoughful act of generosity.

What I was waiting for was the 'STFU and go pump the oil' comment, which I think is a hilarious retort to the delicate Albertan Séparatiste sentiment.

[guyser]

While I don't want to detract from your opinion, how can you honestly believe that if something were not legal and more widespread there would be no increase in usage?

Yes.

See prohibition

[madmax]

Yes.

See prohibition

And one goes out of the park... Always happens when a lob ball is tossed...

[guyser]

And one goes out of the park... Always happens when a lob ball is tossed...

Lobbed?

Man that was T-ball

[grainfedprairieboy]

Yes.

See prohibition

Prohibition is a great example.

Since we don't know how much alcohol the bad guys produced it is hard to compare consumption/production rates during this period. But some of the hard statistics we do know are that everywhere medical records were kept, such as NY and Chicago, both the rates of death by alcoholism and cirrhosis of the liver dropped by around 80-90% and suicide rates also declined during those years by an average of 50%.

Ref Drug Library

Possibly a coincidence? Sure I suppose. But most casual observers would draw the conclusion that consumption was dramatically reduced. I honestly don't see how people can debate that point. Now whether it was the right thing to do is a completely separate argument.

[NA Carter]

Possibly a coincidence? Sure I suppose. But most casual observers would draw the conclusion that consumption was dramatically reduced. I honestly don't see how people can debate that point. Now whether it was the right thing to do is a completely separate argument.

By that same logic, then prohibiting all fast food will lead to significant decreases in obesity, heart disease, cancer, etc. etc etc. Does that mean it should be illegal? Good luck on that one!

We do have an example of what happens when we take a being and eliminate all risk, all dangers, and confine it to a life of nothing but safety and security. You get an indoor cat. We make it stay inside so that it can't find trouble, we cut its balls off so that it can't act on its natural urges, We feed it dull food day after day, that while supposedly nutritious, is hardly stimulating. Try doing that to a human and see what problems you create. I think it will look something like the average federal prison.