Are Israel's "Friends" Trying To Destroy It?

[bloodyminded]

This is beyond stupid... as I've already said, if you and I record the same thing, what sort of discrepancy are you expecting to see between our two recording? Much of the context of the Mavi Marmara hostilities is plain to see on the IDF footage. Do you think that the footage claimed to have been seized by the IDF which was shot by the violent extremists on the Mavi Marmara will show IDF soldiers boarding the vessel and NOT being viciously attacked (their safety and lives clearly at risk - two were even shot, several other stabbed)? There is no debate that the soldiers did what they were supposed to do and were met with much more vicious resistance than they expected - their safety and lives were at risk, and they did what they had to do. To even question this, to me, is beyond sick. Basically, you want these nineteen-year-old soldiers to die before they can defend themselves. The IDF videos shows us what types of people clashed with the IDF on the Mavi Marmara, and these people can certainly not be described as "peace activists".

Ok...I've asked you the same question numrous times...and you consistently avoid it, preferring instead to post this same drivel which doesn't even begin to address the actual question.

Your refusal to even consider the question connotes doublethink, a wilful turning-away of the gaze. Suit yourself.

I think there was one Holocaust survivor. There are plenty of moronic and hate-filled MPs, out there. As astonishing as it might be to you, most anti-Israel "activists" are hate-filled anti-semites.

"Most," huh?

That's funny, bob. You're a funny guy.

Of course, that's sheer nonsense...and paranoid to the point of raving delusion.

What you are dispalying here--shamelessly, as apologists always behave-is either that you, personally, are a full-blown deceptive propagandist (spreading lies knowingly); or else you are entirely credulous to other deceptive propagandists.

I know these people, I've spend more time interacting with them and studying them than I care to admit.

Ah. Well, since personal and unverifiable anecdotes constitute total and absolute proof, how do we square your assessment with my own contradictory one?

Being shot in the back, if true, means nothing. If a person is violently attacking your team, and you're behind him, you may shoot him the back. Spare me your amateur-hour forensic analysis.

Excuse me, but your absolute faith that the shootings were justified is also based on "amatuer-hour forensic analysis."

Unless you have some insider knowledge which you cannot share because....because of "security concerns"! (And actually, rather than ignoring the question of Israel not allowing anyone to see the confiscated footage, I figured you'd undergo some promiscuous intellectual acrobatics to claim the video footage constitutes "security concerns" for Israel. To your credit, you didn't, choosing instead to cover your ears and pretend the issue doesn't exist.)

Please also spare me your suggestion that the IDF doesn't conduct itself in a very moral manner. Your sarcastic "Ghandi" comment is insulting. Let's not compare the discipline and code of conduct followed by the IDF with the amorality of the Mavi Marmara agitators. To suggest that these are two "equal sides" is preposterous.

I never suggested they were "equal sides." The military behaved far worse.

As expected, some from the ship are lying about the events as they unfolded. Others, though, confirm the IDF account of what happened - for example rejecting the lies that the IDF was firing live ammunition from the helicopters prior to boarding the vessel.

You said that the passengers aboard the ship were all agreeing with your apologetics...so that there was "no controversy." I"m enjoying your little backtracking, however.

I haven't seen the reports indicating the the Israeli government suggested they were all Al-Qaeda, let alone the subsequent retraction. I've followed this story carefully, though,

Yes, well, these two sentences don't contradict each other at all, do they?

They got what they wanted, and they duped a bunch of morons into buying their propaganda bullshit.

So you think that Israeli officials are simply beyond "propaganda bullshit": they simply report the straight facts, and anyone who contests their (objectively true) version of events is an anti-semite.

Pretending that the violent folks aboard the Mavi Marmara who viciously attacked the young IDF soldiers aren't anti-semitic doesn't make it so.

Oh for Christ's sake--pretending the people ARE anti-semitic doesn't make it so.

Spare me your feigned outrage, I know what anti-semitism is.

I don't think you do. You throw the label around reflexively.

It does a terrible disservice to the genuine victims of anti-semitism.

Not that you seem to much care, since anti-semitism is nothing more to you than a politicized bomb to toss around at will.

I know it's convenient for you--if "most" critics of Israel are anti-semites, then almost every debate about Israel is between antisemites and less ignoble creatures.

Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for civil debate generally) the facts are not commensurate with your personal convenience.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[naomiglover]

Predictable.

The "Free Gaza" and "Freedom Flotilla" is a one-sided, anti-Israel, anti-semitic collective of people. Pure and simple. They do not advance any positive cause or message.

As Glenn Greenwald points out, people like Bob have "so abused, over-used, manipulated and exploited the "anti-semitism" and "anti-Israel" accusations for improper and nakedly political ends that those terms have become drained of their meaning, have almost entirely lost their sting, and have become trivialized virtually to the point of caricature. That behavior has produced serious harm. Their trivialization and misuse of those terms have severely diminished the ability to stigmatize and attack real anti-Semitism, because legitimate accusations of anti-Semitism are now conflated with and discredited by the neocons' cynical attempts to wield it as a cheap debating weapon."

[Bob]

So you deny the anti-semitic element of the violence that took place aboard the Mavi Marmara? You deny that anti-semitism is a primary driving force behind the preparations for (prayers before "battling the Jews" and desires for martyrdom) the hostilities among the agitators onboard? The "go back to Auschwitz" comment (which wasn't fraudulent, contrary to apologists) isn't indicative of a particular mentality among many of the agitators?

It's pathetic, but unsurprising, that apologists for terrorism and Israel's enemies would look at the IDF video (and all the other information that's come out about these events) and still claim the IDF is the aggressor. You can never bend from your propagandistic tunnel-vision, so why am I even talking to you? You're pretty much in the pocket of the enemy.

[bloodyminded]

Glenn Greenwald is exactly correct. The more promiscuous purveyors of the anti-semite label are doing a profound disservice to the real victims of anti-semitism...and to Jews themselves.

[Bob]

Glenn Greenwald is exactly correct. The more promiscuous purveyors of the anti-semite label are doing a profound disservice to the real victims of anti-semitism...and to Jews themselves.

How is he correct? You've both ignored examples that illustrate that anti-semitism was a theme among the passengers of this ship. Am I inappropriately describing the "go back to Auschwitz" comment as anti-semitism? Should it instead be described as a legitimate political perspective? What about the ritual prayers of "battling the Jews"? Is that not anti-semitic? How about the desire for martyrdom? That isn't anti-semitic?

How ignorant and blind do you have to be to not see the relationship between anti-Israel groups and anti-semitism? Go read websites, discussion forums, YouTube comments, talk to your Muslim friends and ask them about anti-semitism they were exposed to growing up, consult analysts of terror groups and Middle Eastern cultural trends, etc, etc, etc. Like many others, you two put your head in the sand regarding anti-semitism, despite the thousands of Jews murdered in the past few decades from Islamic terrorism. The ignorance isn't shocking to me, anymore, but it is sad.

Where are the "human rights" groups rallying in the streets protesting terrorism and mass murder? The silence is deafening. Instead, these "activists" who you argue are decent people with legitimate grievances are instead burning American and Israeli flags and saying that if only Israel changed its ways then all would be well in the world.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Bob

[bloodyminded]

How is he correct? You've both ignored examples that illustrate that anti-semitism was a theme among the passengers of this ship. Am I inappropriately describing the "go back to Auschwitz" comment as anti-semitism? Should it instead be described as a legitimate political perspective? What about the ritual prayers of "battling the Jews"? Is that not anti-semitic? How about the desire for martyrdom? That isn't anti-semitic?

How ignorant and blind do you have to be to not see the relationship between anti-Israel groups and anti-semitism? Go read websites, discussion forums, YouTube comments, talk to your Muslim friends and ask them about anti-semitism they were exposed to growing up, consult analysts of terror groups and Middle Eastern cultural trends, etc, etc, etc. Like many others, you two put your head in the sand regarding anti-semitism, despite the thousands of Jews murdered in the past few decades from Islamic terrorism. The ignorance isn't shocking to me, anymore, but it is sad.

Where are the "human rights" groups rallying in the streets protesting terrorism and mass murder? The silence is deafening. Instead, these "activists" who you argue are decent people with legitimate grievances are instead burning American and Israeli flags and saying that if only Israel changed its ways then all would be well in the world.

You keep mentioning this incident as if all the pasengers were shouting in one voice...and then you extrapolate it as wildly as you can muster, claiming that "most" activists critical of Israel are anti-semites.

You're just making stuff up, wholesale. Congratulations.

[naomiglover]

How is he correct? You've both ignored examples that illustrate that anti-semitism was a theme among the passengers of this ship. Am I inappropriately describing the "go back to Auschwitz" comment as anti-semitism?

Of course, if someone did say that, it's anti-semitic. This person's alleged comments does not make everyone in the humanitarian effort an anti-semite. You are presenting a weak argument.

It's like saying that all Jews or Pro-Israelis have the same view as IDF soldiers who like to wear tshirts that say "Pregnant Palestinian = 1 Shot 2 Kills"

[Bob]

You keep mentioning this incident as if all the pasengers were shouting in one voice...and then you extrapolate it as wildly as you can muster, claiming that "most" activists critical of Israel are anti-semites.

You're just making stuff up, wholesale. Congratulations.

I've spent enough time in this political scene to know what types of people are represented on the anti-Israel side. Beyond that, I am well-aware of widespread anti-semitism among Arabs and Muslims (the Mavi Marmara and most of the entire flotilla were Turks and other Arabs and Muslims). It's not an unreasonable assumption (especially looking at the vicious attack on the IDF) that anti-semitism was a strong theme among the "activists".

With respect to the "go back to Auschwitz" comment (one of many examples of anti-semitism in these events, to say nothing of the violence which was entirely anti-semitic), imagine the type of environment it must have been for the person who said it to feel comfortable saying it in front of so many others. What type of vibe is present among that convoy where a person feels comfortable saying that type of hate-speech? What type of hate-filled anti-semites are aboard where a comment like that is accepted? Why do I even need to spell this out to you?

You can't say you support Israel's right to self-defense in one breath, and then condemn it for these acts in the next. Condemning Israel for entirely justifiable actions to maintain its security (in the face of threats you ignore) isn't softened when you then say "I support Israel's right to exist".

[Bob]

Of course, if someone did say that, it's anti-semitic. This person's alleged comments does not make everyone in the humanitarian effort an anti-semite. You are presenting a weak argument.

It's like saying that all Jews or Pro-Israelis have the same view as IDF soldiers who like to wear tshirts that say "Pregnant Palestinian = 1 Shot 2 Kills"

I love it... "if" someone said it....

[bloodyminded]

I love it... "if" someone said it....

Still, her point holds.

By your standard--yours, Bob--the IDF are all a bunch of callous bigots.

"What type of vibe is present among [the IDF] where a person feels comfortable saying that type of hate-speech? What type of hate-filled anti-[Arabs] are [present] where a comment like that is accepted? Why do I even need to spell this out to you?"

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[dre]

I've spent enough time in this political scene to know what types of people are represented on the anti-Israel side. Beyond that, I am well-aware of widespread anti-semitism among Arabs and Muslims (the Mavi Marmara and most of the entire flotilla were Turks and other Arabs and Muslims). It's not an unreasonable assumption (especially looking at the vicious attack on the IDF) that anti-semitism was a strong theme among the "activists".

With respect to the "go back to Auschwitz" comment (one of many examples of anti-semitism in these events, to say nothing of the violence which was entirely anti-semitic), imagine the type of environment it must have been for the person who said it to feel comfortable saying it in front of so many others. What type of vibe is present among that convoy where a person feels comfortable saying that type of hate-speech? What type of hate-filled anti-semites are aboard where a comment like that is accepted? Why do I even need to spell this out to you?

You can't say you support Israel's right to self-defense in one breath, and then condemn it for these acts in the next. Condemning Israel for entirely justifiable actions to maintain its security (in the face of threats you ignore) isn't softened when you then say "I support Israel's right to exist".

I've spent enough time in this political scene to know what types of people are represented on the anti-Israel side.

Problem is, youve spent that time as a cheerleading sycophant thats completely unable to recognize that theres two sides to the story.

Edited June 15, 2010 by dre

[naomiglover]

I love it... "if" someone said it....

You didn't respond.

How many more questions or valid points are you going to refuse to respond to?