Decreased responsibility

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Today on the news (City TV) they did a bleeding heart feel good story regarding a Habitat home.

This story was about a family with 8 kids living in a 3-bedroom apartment. They just told them they are building the family a 6-bedroom house which they get to pay off with an interest free mortgage and 500 hours of community service for the 'down payment'.

Now... in my situation... I am working hard and paying over $600 a month in interest on my mortgage on a 2-bedroom condo. I don't have any kids and am holding off having any until I get my finances in better shape, but I am starting to wonder what is the point of being responsible?

I may as well have as many kids as possible... even though I can't afford it. When the bank comes to for-close on my mortgage I can go cry to habitat and the media and get a house and interest free mortgage... a big step up from a condo and $600 a month in interest! All I have to do is take on more kids than I can afford and the bleeding hearts will take care of all!

[Chuck U. Farlie]

You know... I have been thinking about this thread for the past little bit, and in Toronto I am almost better off being poor like this guy I saw on the news. Poor is the new middle class here.

Look at it this way. I make roughly $50k a year (just about $25/hour). With that income I would be lucky to get a mortgage big enough to get me a small townhouse in the burbs... certainly not in Toronto. With that small townhouse I would be strapped for cash and couldn't afford to have kids - at least not being able to raise them with any extras. At work I am lucky to get a 3% raise per year, while houses go up by 5% to 10% every year. So by working hard I will never own a house or have kids in Toronto.

On the other hand, if I just go and pump out 6 kids in the next 6 or 7 years, then not only will I get a pile of cash from the gov't, but it is possible I could qualify for a house in Toronto with an interest free mortgage... sounds like the way to go to me. Being responsible is actually harming my progression in this society. Screw being responsible anymore.

[Peter F]

You know... I have been thinking about this thread for the past little bit, and in Toronto I am almost better off being poor like this guy I saw on the news. Poor is the new middle class here.

Look at it this way. I make roughly $50k a year (just about $25/hour). With that income I would be lucky to get a mortgage big enough to get me a small townhouse in the burbs... certainly not in Toronto. With that small townhouse I would be strapped for cash and couldn't afford to have kids - at least not being able to raise them with any extras. At work I am lucky to get a 3% raise per year, while houses go up by 5% to 10% every year. So by working hard I will never own a house or have kids in Toronto.

On the other hand, if I just go and pump out 6 kids in the next 6 or 7 years, then not only will I get a pile of cash from the gov't, but it is possible I could qualify for a house in Toronto with an interest free mortgage... sounds like the way to go to me. Being responsible is actually harming my progression in this society. Screw being responsible anymore.

and how would that course of action be 'not responsible'?

[Kitch]

You know... I have been thinking about this thread for the past little bit, and in Toronto I am almost better off being poor like this guy I saw on the news. Poor is the new middle class here.

Look at it this way. I make roughly $50k a year (just about $25/hour). With that income I would be lucky to get a mortgage big enough to get me a small townhouse in the burbs... certainly not in Toronto. With that small townhouse I would be strapped for cash and couldn't afford to have kids - at least not being able to raise them with any extras. At work I am lucky to get a 3% raise per year, while houses go up by 5% to 10% every year. So by working hard I will never own a house or have kids in Toronto.

On the other hand, if I just go and pump out 6 kids in the next 6 or 7 years, then not only will I get a pile of cash from the gov't, but it is possible I could qualify for a house in Toronto with an interest free mortgage... sounds like the way to go to me. Being responsible is actually harming my progression in this society. Screw being responsible anymore.

The point of helping people with children is to help the children, not the parents. The parents get a free/cheap ride, yes, but that's an unavoidable side effect. Or, you could take the children away from the parents, and make the children suffer.

Quit crying bud! I live in Toronto too and I too and it's not how you describe it. You see one family on TV and think that all poor people get a free ride?? Habitat for humanity might be able to help a very small number of people, the government doesn't provide enough for people to live lavish lives... maybe just enough to properly take care of any children. If that money is used by the parents for selfish reasons then that is something that needs to be addressed, but welfare isn't intended to give anyone a very comfortable lifestyle. Think of this family as though they just won the lottery.

Some people need help and deserve it. Some people take advantage. Your beef should be with people who take advantage and mechanisms that should do a better job of preventing it. Quit sounding like a kid complaining because you had to clean your room and your little brother/sister didn't.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Quit crying bud!

Quit sounding like a kid complaining because you had to clean your room and your little brother/sister didn't.

Kitch, as long as I am working my ass off to try to succeed in life while other people get free (or largely discounted) rides, then I have every right to bitch. I pay my taxes and even go as far as not having kids until I am financially able to do so - what an unbelievable concept, eh?

Who the hell do you think you are telling me not to bitch about things I see that are not fair and will only lead to more abuse?

If you don't like my complaint, then prove to me I am wrong and that my complaint is unwarranted, don't go telling me not to complain. As long as a single one of my tax dollars goes to a single lazy bastard who is not willing to work or be responsible, then I will complain.

[Kitch]

Kitch, as long as I am working my ass off to try to succeed in life while other people get free (or largely discounted) rides, then I have every right to bitch. I pay my taxes and even go as far as not having kids until I am financially able to do so - what an unbelievable concept, eh?

Who the hell do you think you are telling me not to bitch about things I see that are not fair and will only lead to more abuse?

If you don't like my complaint, then prove to me I am wrong and that my complaint is unwarranted, don't go telling me not to complain. As long as a single one of my tax dollars goes to a single lazy bastard who is not willing to work or be responsible, then I will complain.

I never said you don't have a right to complain... I just said you sound like a baby. You would quit crying if you thought more about what you are saying.

Did I not give reason enough to show why that's so? You hear of one family getting help from Habitat for humanity, not the government, and go on a rant about how people on welfare are lazy and it's not fair.

Bud, some people need it. And like I said, in the case of helping people with kids, it's about the KIDS!!! They can't do anything for themselves, they can't get jobs. It's not their fault that some parents are irresponsible clowns. It's unfortunate that some parents take advantage but that's an unavoidable side effect... that the parents benefit, not necessarily take advantage.

A lazy bastard unwilling to work is not a family with 6 kids. That single bastard should be subject to some mechanism designed to prevent the system from being taken advantage of. You don't seem to differentiate between people who need help and those that sponge off society. There is a difference and you can't punish everyone because of the potential for sponging that exists.

Dude, I don't make a great salary either. I won't have a problem getting a house that is comfortable for me. Maybe you need to change your idea of what a "small" house is.

The reality is that some people take advantage of welfare programs. Your beef is with them and the government agencies responsible for detecting that. Your beef is not with the concept of welfare... is it? If that's the case then I have no patience for you and give your complaint little merit as it's extraordinarily self centred, inconsiderate and ignorant. But, that's only if your beef is with the concept.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

You hear of one family getting help from Habitat for humanity, not the government, and go on a rant about how people on welfare are lazy and it's not fair.

This one example is not the only example. It is just the one that pissed me off enough to complain.

I hear regularly from people that work in the field all about the abuses of the welfare system. Often it seems like there is more abuse than genuine need.

I didn't complain about that because I don't really give a shit about some woman getting extra welfare money because she got knocked up by 6 different men and I don't care about some lazy pothead getting a piddly amount for doing nothing. Personally I think any welfare should be short-term help for people down on their luck. For the most part welfare has no appeal, and that is the way it should be.

The thing that pissed my off about this case is they are getting much much more than some cash to help out the cause. They are given land in prime real estate at a greatly reduced cost that in a few years this guy will be able to sell for substantial profit. This is far beyond a hand-out and is more like a lottery winning. Personally I think the family should have been given affordable housing that was owned by the City. Once they got their act together they could go out and buy their own house - just like everyone else.

[guyser]

On the other hand, if I just go and pump out 6 kids in the next 6 or 7 years, then not only will I get a pile of cash from the gov't, but it is possible I could qualify for a house in Toronto with an interest free mortgage... sounds like the way to go to me. Being responsible is actually harming my progression in this society. Screw being responsible anymore.

It seems as if you wouldnt qualify for a Habitat home. Perhaps your misguided anger was premature since I doubt you checked what it takes to get one built for you.

-family must meet criteria based on need.Meet with the Family Selection Committee (often a church run group or affiliated w a church) The criteria is stringent. You must be pleasant to others, present a strong family group , good interpersonal skills , no defacement of current residence, not have moved w/o reason in ten years

-help build a house for someone else first.

-put in at least 430 hours of volunteer time.

-downpayment + monthly mortgage payments.

-cant sell the house for three years.

-when you sell the house you must share the profit with Habitat.

Still think they have it easy?

[Chuck U. Farlie]

It seems as if you wouldnt qualify for a Habitat home. Perhaps your misguided anger was premature since I doubt you checked what it takes to get one built for you.

-family must meet criteria based on need.Meet with the Family Selection Committee (often a church run group or affiliated w a church) The criteria is stringent. You must be pleasant to others, present a strong family group , good interpersonal skills , no defacement of current residence, not have moved w/o reason in ten years

-help build a house for someone else first.

-put in at least 430 hours of volunteer time.

-downpayment + monthly mortgage payments.

-cant sell the house for three years.

-when you sell the house you must share the profit with Habitat.

Still think they have it easy?

If those conditions are correct, then I suppose my rant was misguided. All they said on CityTV was that the family had to do 430 hours of community service as the down payment and that the mortgage would be interest free (which basically cuts the cost of the house in half).

[pfezziwig]

Consider yourself lucky, if you lived in the USA where millions of people are being bailed out because they cannot afford their mortgage and responsible people are stuck with higher taxes and decreased services to pay for the bail out for the next 20 years.